Firstly, I want to state that I am not a prophet, though I have prophesied by God’s grace. I come from a strong heritage of Welsh Apostolic / Pentecostal life, which had its roots in the Revival of 1904, and was the only movement to be directly born out of it. Because of God’s grace in saving me, I now speak on these issues, not as the final word, but as one who has been blessed and privileged to have witnessed some remarkable prophetic moments and vessels in my 31 years of life.
There is much debate about the role of prophets and prophecy in the Church today. Some argue that prophets & prophecy are confined to the time of the Old Testament and early church years; others say that whilst prophecy can continue, the role of the New Testament prophet does not. And to add to that, among those who believe in the present day prophet, there is debate as to what exactly he is and does.
Firstly, we need to clarify a number of key issues in this debate. Then God willing, next issue, we will look at some examples in history of prophets and prophecy that in my opinion touch something of the genuine manifestation of such gifts and graces.
There are two key areas for me that capture the heart of what we all need to consider:
1. The Role of the Prophet.
Ephesians 3: 5. This scripture contains Paul’s understanding of the role of the Apostle & Prophet. Paul states that the ‘mystery of Christ… has now been revealed by the Spirit…’ by these two ministries. To him, these ministries were to partner in a foundational role in New Testament ministry. He doesn’t say that the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles were like a foundation to the Church, although of course there is truth to that. Rather, he is expressing the prophet’s present functioning in the New Testament Church, in which they were bringing a present ministry of the revelation of Jesus Christ that was unknown in previous generations! (The OT prophet could not do that!) The Apostle & Prophet were instruments now & together in NT revelation, during the early church years.
So New Testament prophets were and are vital to the ministry of revelation to the Church, of which the essence is Christ. For Paul and the early apostles, the written ministry they brought was eventually recognized to be of an infallible nature. Note however, that the NT prophets words are rarely recorded. We only have small glimpses in Acts, and in the prophecy spoken to the seven churches in Revelation. However, we do know one thing – the prophets in the NT played a foundational role, and worked in team ministry with the apostolic leader. This brought a powerful two-edged sword of ministry, both by revelatory preaching / teaching and through the revelation given in prophetic utterance.
Also, from this scripture, as well as Ephesians 2: 19 – 20, we can see something deeper regarding the prophets partnership with an apostle. It is not only foundational historically but functionally. We know from Acts that Paul (an apostle) & Silas (a prophet), as well as others, ministered on Paul’s Apostolic missionary team. This is vital today in an age where so called prophets are lone-rangers, spewing out words left, right and center, many of which are shallow, unjudged and dangerous, and a far-cry from a revelatory foundational-type ministry.
The concept of the Prophet as a foundational ministry was not new to the early Jewish Church. We read in Zechariah 4 of the prophetic word coming through Zechariah the prophet to Joshua the high priest & Zerubbabel. They were called to begin the building of the temple, to lay its foundations with shouts of ‘grace!’ We then turn to Ezra 5, where the historic account of this is given. There it mentions that Haggai & Zechariah, both prophets, were to accompany the builders of the House of God. In other words, both ministries were foundational in the rebuilding of the temple, one as wall-builders, the other as watchmen. Here we see the Old Testament type of what was to be in the New Testament, Apostle & Prophet working together in the building of the new people of God.
Then we go to the New Testament, in Matthew 21 – 24, Jesus comes to predict the rejection of Himself as the cornerstone, and yet promises the destruction of the physical – literal temple, and the construction of a more glorious spiritual temple. He is the chief apostle and prophet who laid a foundation for a new temple! Can you see what is taking place here? It is with this background in the OT & Gospels that Paul can speak of himself as a ‘wise master-builder’ in 1 Corinthians 3: 10 – 17, who lays a foundation of Jesus Christ, in the planting of new Churches. But what of the role of the watchman – the prophet? He too, with the Apostolic ministry can bring forth the mind of the Spirit in regard to this building ministry, as is so wonderfully demonstrated in Acts 16: 6 – 10, where the ‘Spirit of Jesus’ led them in Apostolic mission and building. Most commentators agree that the role of the prophet would have been key in this account.
Because of time, we cannot go into all of the issues involved in the present debates about the prophet, but I hope the above at least can get us started in beginning to see the issue with clarity. From this we can learn that a ‘go alone prophet’ is not good, nor biblical. Secondly, that whilst God primarily spoke through the Prophet in the OT, He now in the last days has spoken by His Son (Hebrews 1), who in turn has graced the Church not only with one ministry as the prophets of old, but the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4: 11 & 1 Corinthians 12). They all in their own unique way manifest the revelation and ministry of Jesus Christ to and through His people.
Another thing to note is that OT Prophets prophesied predominantly to a physical nation/s – Israel and the Gentiles. In that mix were those obedient to God, and those rebellious. We have to believe that early church prophets were similar in many ways to the OT characters for them to have been recognized as such. They probably would have had a certain style of conveying the word. The tones of the word, and the substance of the heart of God being expressed would had been familiar to the Jewish disciples. They were men who forth-told, and foretold, and all utterance was born in the heart of God. However, it is evident Scripturally that the emphasis of ministry in the OT went from the lone prophet speaking to a king & nation, to a NT expression of a 5-fold ministry ministering in plurality to a redeemed/ fulfillment body of people. The body of Christ then in AD 60 & now in 2008 is a people of a promise fulfilled. Therefore, whilst God can and does still bring words of chastisement, correction and warning to His NT people at times (we need it!) – the nature of the word now carries the revelation of the mystery of Christ and His heart. Whereas in times before, the OT word pointed ahead in small ways, and came with condemnation at times, in the NT it was no longer primarily a prophetic word of judgment to an unbelieving nation but of revelation to a fulfillment people who related to their Head. In the OT the prophet spoke to kings both good & bad for warning of judgment, instruction and rebuke. Today, our King is Jesus. It is no longer a word to a king but from our King. So therefore whilst there are some characteristic traits which carry through from OT to NT, there are some significantly unique dynamics to the ministry & the revelation NOW revealed! In that word now, we can receive chastisement (See Revelation 3) or warning of God’s severe dealings at times, but as sons! As when the writers of the Epistles gleaned from OT scripture to bring instruction to the NT people, so too the prophets probably ministered through much of the terminology of the OT prophets. However, there was a new dynamic. The prophets now, were in and for the Body of Christ, with other ministries for the maturing of the saints for service, and to bring the body to the full stature of Christ. (Ephesians 4: 13 & 15) We must remember to keep this balance and tension in our thinking regarding prophecy.
2. The Essence & Nature of Prophecy.
For me there are two key verses that capture what prophecy in fact is, both in Biblical times, and today. Firstly, there is the verse in Revelation 19: 10, which states that, ‘the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’ In other words, all the prophetic utterance found in the book of Revelation, which came through John to the Church is at the heart – Christocentric (Christ centered)! So then prophecy is not the idea of men; it is not speculative words of things to come (although prediction can come by the Spirit as with Agabus & the famine); it is not impersonal. Rather in its purest sense, it is the Word of the Lord – Himself, by the Spirit to the Church, and thus NT prophets, like the OT ones, would have conveyed it as such. However, today it is not infallible, nor can it be added to Scripture, rather it brings out the treasures of truth written within Scripture. Now remember that prophecy must be judged in the light of Scripture because it comes through imperfect channels, but in its purest essence before coming through the channel, it is out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus to His people. Therefore, we can know how to judge a word when it carries this undeniable mark – the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ and all He has given us in Scripture. The prophetic channel, in keeping this plumb-line of ‘Christ testifying revelation’, can begin to mine the depths of prophecy and bring out treasures of the Kingdom through the prophetic word. They can be words that exhort, instruct, edify, and even through seasoned ministry – direct, so as long as they carry the undeniable mark of God’s character and truth, as revealed in His Son and in Scripture. Once delivered audibly, it then must be judged and agreed by those around that God has spoken. If it is judged to be so, we can act on it with faith!
Prophetic revelation then is a mine of precious stone, that can help the builders of God’s house in that foundational ministry, and in a more general way to encourage the people of God and lead them into greater things in the advancing of the Kingdom.
Secondly, the nature of prophecy is important. How do we know when we are to prophesy, how to prophesy and what to prophesy? Again, there is much to say, which I will say another time, but for me the key text is in 2 Peter 1: 21. Genuine prophecy never has and never should originate in the will of men. It is born of God, by the Holy Spirit in the deep places of a man. Peter says that prophets of God were men carried along by the Holy Spirit. I like the description of prophecy given by a powerful servant of God, D. P. Williams, who came out of the Welsh Revival in 1904 and was used in pioneering an Apostolic movement with powerful prophetic ministries in those he labored with. He says:
‘The prophetic word must be born in the bowels of Mercy, and the affections moved in the operation of the gift. This background of Divine character is most essential to the making of a channel, as there is possibility for the operation of the gift to be on the surface, and remain in shallow waters, or to keep the gift in a babyhood stage, without spiritual development.’
Some practical advice here. The first time I ever prophesied was when I was around 10 years old. I had seen powerful ministry of this kind from a babe, yet how did I know how to prophesy? I simply asked my mother, and she said these words, ‘just wait, be patient, you’ll know when you are to prophesy.’ So simple! And yet she had not tried to cajole me into something that might, or could be it. No! I was to wait for the genuine burning and bubbling of God from deep within! And that is my advice, which I believe to be rooted in the Word, and learnt from genuine experience of seeing powerful, deep and Christ revealing prophets and prophecy in my lifetime. Not to mention hearing of those who over the last 100 years in Wales have continued to bring that foundational ministry of the Prophet with the Apostle in Church planting and building. They too have led other members to be used in the gift of prophecy to the edifying of the Body for service.
Prophecy can come through many ways and means, however let the plumb-line of Peter’s words hold us on course for a genuine manifestation. It takes patience, waiting, depth of seeking, a pure heart and a genuine experience for the prophetic word to come forth. We can have prophetic preaching but also we should see as in both OT & NT prophets, that Spirit infused Word spoken to the people of God, direct from the moving of the Spirit deep within. This is why prophets prophesied in the first person, such was the immediacy of revelation and deep feeling of the Holy Spirit within. Peter says, they were ‘carried along…’ by the Holy Spirit. I am looking for such a manifestation today – genuine, untainted, powerful, and unmistakably God!
A final thought then on all the ‘prophetic talk’ today. For me the above principles are key to judging words, and knowing the authentic among our gatherings. (There is more to say, but time and space doesn’t permit.) But another thing worth considering is what brings about such mixed teaching / understanding about this ministry. One of my feelings is that it is only God Himself who can birth a genuine prophetic vessel, ‘as the Spirit wills,’ says Paul to Corinth. I have noted that the genuine prophetic ministries that I have heard of or witnessed in part, were all born in the fires of genuine revival! Could it be then, that many today are grasping after things or claiming things for themselves that have not been born in a supernatural move of God! I realize that God can and will raise up such vessels in His Church in all seasons, and yet it seems that the understanding of the depth of them is only realized by those come through fire, learn through fire, are hardened by fire and then bring a ministry of fire. They then pass on a baton of truth and understanding to their spiritual sons. The fire tests each man’s work, and purges the worthless! Next issue, I will be looking at these issues in the history of the Apostolic movement that was birthed in the Welsh Revival of 1904, and also the early years of the Latter Rain, which was indirectly influenced by the Welsh movement, but later became something uglier than it initially was.
May God cause this new generation to touch such things and not be satisfied with any less!
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Good stuff Andrew… May Christ raise up for Himself in this hour such vessels for His own honour & glory!
A lot of this sounds good, but sadly is not scriptural.
For instance: “From this we can learn that a ‘go alone prophet’ is not good, nor biblical..”
Jesus was a ‘go alone prophet’; John the Baptist was a ‘go alone prophet’; and Elijah was a ‘go alone prophet’.
And what’s important about Elijah – a ‘go alone prophet’ – are the prophetic words spoken at the end of Malachi 4 and the prophetic words spoken by Jesus. Though john the Baptist was a type of Elijah, he did not fulfill all of the prophetic words of Elijah. Thus, we can expect to see more Elijah-types on the scene. Probably, as ‘go alone prophets’.
Larry,
Are you sure that the NT model allows for “go alone” prophets? I believe that is the one change from OT prophets to NT prophets: NT prophets are part of a team leadership structure and in accountable relationships, submitted to authority as well.
Can you show me a NT pattern for prophets that is different than this? Going against the grain is one thing; going it alone is another.
I want to second Dr. Brown’s comment.
As one of my father’s in the faith used to say, it’s life together with other believers (or other leaders on a ministry team) that “keeps true prophets from becoming false.”
Across the board, in Christian community, in team leadership, in family, the Lord is jealous to bring about the fullness of Christ and a powerful Gospel witness through a corporate Body. This is the glory of the New Covenant, that Jews and Gentiles, men and women, people from all nations and back grounds can be transformed and made one in Christ.
By the way, great article Andrew!
Dr. Brown,
Our number one example for a NT prophet is Jesus. In this particular exchange of ideas, He would be a ‘go alone prophet’, right?
This does not mean that I believe a whole bunch of “lone ranger prophets” should show up next Sunday at traditional churches and prophesy. To me, this would be rebellious. Why? Because most traditional churches have a set order with a person in charge. God is not the author of confusion.
But I don’t have a problem with an individual prophet walking into San Francisco (or any other city) and prophesying on street corners and wherever against the sins of that particular city. This may upset the religious establishment of that city, but the Lord doesn’t seem to mind that.
Okay, here’s a question for you: where in the NT does it state a concrete rule that a prophet has to always be with an apostle or under a hierarchy system with accountability dictates? Nowhere that I can find.
Just a couple more thoughts before I head off to work.
What about Philip in Acts 8:5? Would you consider him a ‘go alone evangelist’?
Or what about Barnabas? He was probably a prophet/teacher (Acts 13:1) and he went to Antioch by himself. So, was he a ‘go alone prophet’?
Larry,
The point is not one of whether or not a brother may minister from time to time by himself. Philip and Barnabas were both radically related to other saints, and I am certain that Dr. Brown was really addressing the phenomenon of so-called prophets, or other ministers who have a maverick spirit and are not willing to “be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.” (Eph. 5) There are many self-appointed souls with a superiority complex towards the Body who are not willing to walk in a submissive meekness. There is not a rigid model for leadership in the NT, but the most common picture we see is of servants with different functions working together as a team, and leading the Church towards the fullness of Christ. Men who are not willing to work as a team alongside other ministers are most likely ill-equipped to lead the saints in any way.
Philip and Barnabas were men of character, men of the Spirit, men of humility with clear callings from the Lord, and their ministries were commended by the saints in Jerusalem. In other words, while they may have ministered alone from time to time, they were still in union with the Lord and with other saints. This is absolutely crucial, both as a safeguard for us, and especially because the Lord desires to reveal Himself through a corporate entity; namely, the Church.
Jesus Himself displayed the most remarkable kind of humility, submission and meekness. (Phil. 2) The Infinite Son of God submitting for 30 years to earthly parents and leaders in Judea. That’s amazing to me, and this is one of the ways that He learned obedience.
Dr. Brown can correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe you may have read into what he stated. In the NT Church there are no self-formed loners, or men who are going about as superior to and separate from other saints. That is primarily what he was addressing, I believe.
There is a Body which has been redeemed, with all of its quirks and rough edges, all of its gifts and servants, and the Spirit is at work to bring about the fullness of Christ through leaders who are eager to work together for the glory of God and the testimony of Jesus.
By the way, in case I wasn’t clear enough about this, I do believe that there is a leadership structure in the local church. There are pastors, elders, and servants who lead in other capacities to the glory of God.
Blessings,
Bryan
Bryan,
Yes, you accurately reprsented my thoughts, and Larry was reacting to something I never said or thought (which is understandable, given the nature of short, online communication).
Larry,
To use Jesus as our example and then say, “He did it alone and so can we,” is to misuse the nature of his example. (Jesus was also the Word made flesh, which makes quite a difference!) And doesn’t Paul lay out clearly in 1 Cor 12 and Rom 12 our need for one another in the Body?
Dr. Michael and Bryan,
Just a quick reminder: this is the statement in the article that I disagree with:
“From this we can learn that a ‘go alone prophet’ is not good, nor biblical.”
It’s not that I’m against team ministry nor am I against the prophet and apostle working together. This is scriptural. But I do not believe that you can deduce that a ‘go alone prophet’ (your words, not mine) is not scriptural.
If Jesus wants to send an individual prophet to a city to prophesy and proclaim truths for a day, a week, a month, a year, ten years or however long, that is up to the Lord. And I can find no scriptures saying He can’t do this. Or that He needs to send a ministry team along with the individual prophet.
Larry,
thanks for your comments. They thing for me is the distinction you are making about the Prophet. Because of so much obvious shallow and dangerous ‘prophetic ministries’ in the West today, I think there is a tendency for people to revert back to OT type figures – like Elijah or Jonah etc. However, as I state in the article, now the dynamic has signifantly changed in that Jesus (who embodies all the functions) has distributed His gifts to men (plural), and thus now the emphasis has gone from the a predominant singular ministry (dual if you want to include priest) to a five fold. Not only but Eph 4: 11 onward specifically spells out the role of the graces in maturing the saints, plural, to minister in such ways! God now uses a Body! The prophet of OT in prophetically preaching like Jonah, would often, though not exclusively be seen in Paul & Peter’s Apostolic preaching, Philip’s Evangelistic preaching, and the list could go on. In the OT the prophet was a ‘sent one’ which in the NT is the distinction of the APostle. (This is the point of the NT, in the Lord widening the scope of ministry, to plurality.) One more thing: Barnabas went as a ‘sent one’ from Jerusalem Church, he perceives God’s grace, and then looks for Saul / Paul to come and join him, Later in Acts 13, it’s evident that there is a team ministry in operation.
Bless you.
Sorry one more thing. For me, the key thing in in this debate is ‘what is prophecy?’ Essentially it is God speaking through a yielded servant out of revelation born by the Holy Spirit. Surely prophesying is a key hallmark of a prophet!
Secondly, we have to grasp the NT dynamic in terms of what context is the prophet now ministering. For me this is crucial! OT – to a a king, a nation and nations (including a faithful remnant.) to whom the the threat of judgment was to the disobedient, the promise of restoration to a covenant keeping people / NT to a redeemed people of promise fulfilled in Christ, who though can be warned and dealt with, are essentially in Christ!
Thanks for the enlightening discussion. May the Lord bless you.
Larry,
Thanks for the further clarification. Of course, God can send whoever He wants to send and use them however He pleases, but if there are others who are in right relationship with God in a region, the NT pattern is clearly related to a Body, out of which an individual, ministers rather than an individual who is totally unattached. Do you differ with that?
Dr. Michael Brown,
..”but if there are others who are in right relationship with God in a region, the NT pattern is clearly related to a Body, out of which an individual, ministers rather than an individual who is totally unattached…”
Maybe He will use a member in right relationship from the region; and maybe He won’t. The choice is up to God.
Larry,
I think there’s an important spiritual point you’re missing here in terms of what Andrew was trying to communicate. Perhaps you can step back and reflect on the principle? My point here is not that everything must comes of out the home base in a region, but that if God sends someone into a region where He already has His people laboring in right relationship with Him, then there is no reason for a “go alone prophet.” Otherwise, there is confusion, lack of mutual submission and accountability, among other things, and the Word is pretty clear about all this being important.
Let me give a hypothetical illustration:
Let’s say there is a city named Christian City. In Christian City there are fifty churches and each is in right relationship with the Lord and with the other churches. There are numerous quality apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, elders, and deacons in Christian City.
Now, two thousand miles away, a prophet lives in a hut. He thinks the Lord has directed him to go and speak in Christian City. He jumps on a jet, flies to Christian City, takes a taxi to the city square of Christian City, pays the driver, walks to the middle of the city square and begins to prophesy to the people and the government of Christian City. All of this is done without talking to another Christian (except his wife).
Now, are you saying that God would not do this? That He no longer sends a Jonah-type prophet to a city to speak His words?
This seems to be the crux of our disagreement.
Larry, I can’t speak for Dr Mike, but I can give you my opinion. I think there are number of Scriptural issues you are missing here in regard to the Prophet as the lone figure of the OT, vs the 5-fold of the NT.
Firstly, in the NT it seems that it is the Apostolic pioneer is the ‘sent one’ of the NT, with a team, to bring God’s word to that region. Nowhere after John the Baptist is this done through a lone figure. The reason is Jesus in inaugurating a new eschatological people (in the gathering of the 12 etc) has now distributed his gifts amoung men (plural), and place them within the new body of people.
So therefore, the prophet of the NT comes from within the new people of God, and the things the OT prophet would have solely carried in himself, have now been distributed to a 5-fold expression – and to a wider body! We are the body of Christ, which is the ministry of Jesus in the earth today. Anything outside of that has to be questioned in light of NT Apostolic teaching.
Secondly, the NT local Church in any given region is the local expression of the above dynamic. Note, that all mentioned NT prophets came from, ministered to and within the body, whether Agabus, Judas or Silas.
Please also bare in mind another key Scripture from Paul in 1 Corinthians 14: 29 – 33 ‘… one prophesies… another judges…’
This is the Pauline paradigm for NT prophets, and any revelation that is spoken by or in the midst of the saints.
Simply put, it is not a question of what God CAN do (in terms of raising up a “lone prophet”), but a matter of what He has chosen and desired- namely, the raising up of prophetic servants who minister in union with a prophetic Church. He certainly could raise up a so-called “lone prophet”, but He has already expressed His desire to express the fullness of the Son through a Body. We have no reason to stray from praying for, laboring for, and anticipating His highest intentions.
My focus in this discussion has been narrow. In that, I have not wandered into the church environs, but have stayed outside its walls, in the public arena.
So, after reading everybody’s viewpoints, I would have to say that we disagree on this issue. For most, who may read what we have batted back and forth, our disagreement will seem minor. Yet, I feel that in the next few years, this minor point will erupt into a major one which will cause great disharmony in the body of Christ.
But even should this happen, there is grace enough for us all. God bless.
Larry and others,
Thanks for the helpful discussion! I think we’re both concerned about key issues, yours being not to stifle or restrict the voice of God, others being not to give place to the long-range spirit that can be so damaging. Hopefully, we all gained some insight from the interaction.
To one and all,
I thoroughly enjoyed this article, “the heart of prophecy.” And just like you Andrew I have a strong Welsh and Scottish background, as I originally come from Wales (Mum – Welsh + Dad – Scottish = me confused. Just kidding). In my younger days, I remember having talks with some of the older saints from the Apostolic movement in Wales and I remember them telling me that if anyone gave a false word they were kicked out of the church (this would happen if they were a repeat offender, not teachable and did not submit to the authority God had set in place). Sorry, to harsh they were asked to leave. But more than anything else I have enjoyed is the discussion that followed and so I thought to myself let’s have my two cents worth in this wonderful dialogue.
1. Prophets as far as I understand in the Old Testament were raised up by God to confront the wickedness in high places meaning to expose all the idolatrous practices, evil, falseness, murderous, adulterous behaviour that was seen from the leadership, the priests in the temple all the way down to the people. One of the most perfect examples of this in the Old Testament is Jeremiah. All that he did was out of loving obedience to God. Why? Because love is manifested in obedience as obedience is manifested in love. He didn’t exactly have the leadership to go to and say “can you test this word for me to see if it is of God?” No he didn’t in fact part of recognizing a prophet was to do with his message to see if it was from God. If it was from God it would come to pass and if not he was killed.
However, when we look at the times of Jeremiah, false prophets and false prophecies were flowing to and fro. Again this is because the people did not follow the mandate of God as prescribed in His word. Ok, let’s get back on track, Jeremiah’s message was totally counter culture and subversive. His message was not well received by the mass because of its stinging tones of rebuke, the brutal call of repentance and return to God, and the restoration of the people back into relationship with God.
2. The New Testament prophet and prophecy as I understand can be separate as well as one of the same. Consider the gift of prophecy in 1 Cor. 12:10 and Rom. 12:6 this is seen as an individual operation of the Spirit. So the one who gives a prophecy is not necessarily a prophet.
Nevertheless, when it comes to the Prophet in the New Testament, there should be no difference in the message from the O.T. when dealing with corruption, wickedness, idolatry and so on within the confined area or nation God has called them too. But the major difference between the O.T. and N.T. is this – Jesus Christ. The Kinsman Redeemer, The Saviour, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Lamb of God and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
The other major difference from O.T. to N.T. is the changing of community that it is not held down by social, economic, or racial standings. For in Christ, we are one! When one reads Ephesians 4, the first thing one should notice, is what I believe is highly important, is unity! Unity is of the upmost importance in understand the ‘5 fold ministry’. Why? well, it is because unity with the ‘5 fold ministry’ structure that God has placed should reflect that there should be no conflict within this group.
For example, if the apostles teaching is in conflict with the prophets word and the evangelist preaches a name and claim it message, and the shepherd is not feeding the sheep and is to busy playing golf not looking for that lost sheep, whilst the teacher is teaching something that make you feel good and not be good; then there are problems a foot in the church. There is no unity in this! Therefore, everything that is said and done should be in line with Holy Scripture and the Holy Spirit. This would then bring about a common unity among the ‘5 fold ministry’ and fellow believers.
With all that said, there are problems within the church that need to be challenged and confronted, which I will bring to mention another time.
Again, I say thank you for a great article as I look forward to the next one. Keep up the God work as it is a good work.
Love and blessings,
Jonathan
Nov. 25, 2008
Dearest Mr. Yeoman, Dr. Brown, Bryan P. & Larry Who:
I just thank our dear Lord for the inspired guidance of His Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha Kodesh) in leading me, here, tonight to this timely and enlightening article; as well as the insighful dialogue!! It is truly food and refreshing and, yes, confirmation to the spirit of a Prophet-in-training (via Holy Spirit), who has been assigned, as an African American woman to a Messianic Jewish Rabbi somewhat willing, yet unclear, as to how to incorporate my prophetic gifting into the body of believers he’s been sent to build-up. And, I coming from an “extreme” prophetic church body — drawn by the Messianic music, and the love of God shed abroad in my heart for the small body of believers in this orthodox synagogue — was, also initially, unclear of my role. All I had, as a fledgling, rapidly-budding prophet, was a word from G-d telling me to “cross pollenate.” And six months later, a “falling upon my face” in intercessioal prayer, when I was shown the “old” (God was not pleased) Rabbi’s firing (I was unaware of the politics). Then, I found myself (2 months later) with a strong, specific prophetic Word of the L-rd for one of the “candidate Rabbis,” telling hime that he was, indeed, called to be the one to come to this group! Next, I flew to Wisconsin (from Nevada) to be with (and help nurse) my Dad upon his death bed. While I was gone (a month) the Rabbi accepted the position (he says based, largely, on the word I’d given as confirmation). He moved from California to Nevada, while I was still in Wisconsin. I flew back to Nevada after 4 months in Wisconsin. Two weeks later, my Mother was found dead in her bathroom!! (both died in 2004 — Aug. & Nov.) . . . sigh-h-h-h . . .
Since that time, the Lord told me to return to my “backside of the desert” experience in Nevada — not to stay on my family’s farmland; to sell it! Difficult emotionally. Since that time, I’d returned to the Messianic church once or twice. On one occasion, I’d prayerd for a group of people the new Rabbi had called together in front of synagoue . I was lead by Holy Spirit to do so — was use to flowing that way in church I was birthed out of. Rabbi was receptive . . . UNTIL BODIES BEGAN FALLING (flying) HARD TO THE GROUND, as I layed hands on them. I was as SURPRISED as the Rabbi!! He pulled me back! I layed my head of his shoulder (the power of Holy Spirit truly upon me!), while Rabbi whispered to me to “trust” him. I did. I finished ministering and “loving-on” several more people. However, when I finished, Rabbi, forcefully, told the body of believers: “WE”RE JEWS!!” — in other words, we don’t do that!! One elder told me to “get ahold of yourself (myself) young lady!” I was confused and publically humiliated!!
I went home and got on the floor at the Lord’s feet!! I WAS A BASKET CASE! I didn’t know what I’d done wrong!! I was quite upset! Soon after, I received a long, written Word of the Lord. Rabbi accepted it!! As did others in leadership. Rabbi called me to “see if I was angry.” To make a long story short. Since that time, I have been, not a “lone ranger,” but rather “called away” and trained exclusively by Holy Spirit. (NOTE: the pastor of my original church died month before my Dad. And the “parent church,” which “planted” us grew quickly-small (as Senior Pastor became fulltime Evangelist) and, now, just a hand full — lead my the radical, extreme prophet.
My Rabbi is still very conservative!!! It is still slow-going. I’ve developed an online relationship with the Rabbi. Very close since Jan., 2008. I, consistently, mail my tithes and send “words” and many, many prophetic “Songs of the Lord” to Rabbi — (nearly 70 songs in 6 months) . Very recently, learning to write, not only the lyrics, but the notes of the basic melody I “hear” in my mind.
However, I don’t know, still, HOW my gifting will fit into the rather traditilonally structured atmosphere there. Prophetic dancing (which I use to do) has been prayed for long before new Rabbi came, but only the traditional Jewish dancing has been allowed. I don’t try to force anything. All I know is, the Lord has NOT TOLD ME TO GO ANYWHERE ELSE! In fact, even though things seem “dead,” when I attend special events, I know Lord is working in the hearts, behind the scenes. I know that since January, the Lord has really, truly increased the LOVE in my heart for the people there (especially Rabbi), even thought I seldom attend (health challenges on the surface). And I, sometimes, have to resist my FLESH, when I, at times, wonders why I’m still in Nevada “wasting time;” since what Lord has equipped me for doesn’t seem to be happening. Family want me closer to them, but I ONLY DO WHAT THE LORD TELLS ME TO!! AND HE HAS NOT TOLD ME TO LEAVE!!
ON NOVEMBER 4, 2008, I RECEIVED a beautiful, rather long, PROPHETIC WORD OF THE LORD FOR THE RABBI. IT WAS THE REVELATORY WORD OF GOD’S HEART!! IT IS, BASICALLY, ENCOURAGING THE RABBI TO INCREASE HIS OWN INTIMATE WALK WITH THE LORD. I’ve sent him, similar, prayers and other “smaller” words, over the years and months, which he says he appreciates. Ar one time he wrote: “We miss you, and I can’t wait for you to return!” He doesn’t write so transparent anymore. And the Lord preparing him, step-by-step, for a deeper walk toward trusting Him in love for him to better PREPARE THE BRIDE. And to begin to step out, more, by building up the body by adding “WATER” to his foundational teachings!! And that the Lord will soon send him help.
Anyway, it’s been a training time for us both, alone, individually. But, I always “saw” us as a team — (once I understood and accepted my role). After all, he’s a Rabbi and “who am I?” I , now, know who I am in Christ! And Rabbi , now, knows (think he always did). But, has found out (in past 3 years), that he needs to team up with the flow of the NT prophetic purpose and manifestation, as well!! Otherwise, why did G-d send me???
My concern, recently, was: I “know” much of what you all have written about in — (discussed / debated) — the wonderful article by Mr. Yeoman. I also, truly enjoyed, Dr. Brown’s piece on the Prophet Jeremiah!!! I mean, I knew the essense of it — ( and have documented Prophetic Words expressiing the Spirit of God confirming much of the truth you all have written about here). My only source (except for a few books I’ve read earlier) ALLl come from consecrated prayers, submission and training (via Holy Spirit) at the Lord’s feet!! And learning to hear and obey His direction, because my heart is plugged into the Lord’s heart — (and I , of course, love Him!), so, hence, not too difficult to obey. I’ve experienced some of the excesses of “FREEDOM” in the Spirit — including “lone rangers,” and spiritual pride and jealousy!! It was hurtful, but I always took it to the feet of Yeshua!!!
Then, very quickly, I was sent to the Messianic movement, and had to learn about that, and how to operate there — so different from my EXTREME CHURCH “birthing!;” where I would “DO,” then “LEARN” what I did, later!
However, now that growth and acceptance has taken place — (at least the ground is almost prepared to receive the “seeds”) — I was wondering HOW would I, concretely, teach / preach what I’ve learned in the Spirit?? I’m sure Rabbi would give me platform, upon my return. And I’ve wondered, exactly, how to support and express what I’ve been taught via G-d’s Spirit. And how would I have, the necessary, scriptural substance to help Rabbi to trust this direction.
Well, all of my writing is to explain to you that, tonight, how our precious, all-knowing Lord has used Dr. Brown’s newsletter in my inbox, which led to this site and this discussion to, SO VERY GREATLY, ENCOURAGE MY HEART AND MY SPIRIT!!! And I’ve noted the cassette offerings of Dr. Brown’s work on the prophetic. Wonderful!! I will purchase!! All of this Spirit-direction tonight is, I want you to know, to help light a concrete foundation and a prophetic heart of the Lord saying: “YES, KAREN, YOU ARE ON TRACK!! YES, MY DAUGHTER, DON’T YOU KNOW BY NOW, THAT YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS?!? NO, NOT EVEN IN YOUR ALONE TIME RIGHT NOW, I HAVE NOT BROUGHT YOU THIS FAR TO LEAVE YOU, LOVE!!”
I KNOW THAT I’M RAMBLING, A BIT!! AND I KNOW THAT MY WRITING, TONIGHT, IS NOT ON THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION, WHICH YOU LEARNED MEN OF GOD HAVE BEEN EXPOUSING ON. HOWEVER, I LOVED IT ALL!! AND, SIMPLY, WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT IT IS ALL (EVEN THE DISAGREEMENTS) GOOD FODDER FOR THE CONTINUED — (AND OH SO, TIMELY) — UNFOLDING OF GOD’S WORK-IN-PROGRESS IN THE HEARTS AND MINDS AND SPIRITS OF A GROUP OF HIS PEOPLE (JEW AND GENTILE) ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE MOJAVE NEVADA DESERT!!
THANK YOU, SO MUCH, FOR YOUR SCHOLARSHIP AND STUDY AND DEDICATION AND FIRE!!!!! I CRAVE THAT!!! AND, SINCE I CAN’T “RUN AWAY” TO DR. BROWN’S FIRE SCHOOL OF MINISTRY, TO BE “IN MY ELEMENT,” SO TO SPEAK — (I have a brother in North Carolina, who’d love for me to leave the desert to be near him) — I KNOW, TONIGHT, FOR SURE, THAT THE LORD HAS BROUGHT ME JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF “KINDLING” (VIA THIS ARTICLE & DISCUSSION) TO HELP IGNITE JUST THE CORRECT, OBEDIENT “FIRES” IN MY SPIRIT TO “MARRY” ME INTO THE BODY OF THIS 5-FOLD MINISTRY-TEAM-IN-THE-BIRTHING!! BARUCH HASHEM!! THANK YOU, AGAIN!!!!
G-D’S LOVE, GRACE AND PEACE TO YOU ALL,
Karen A. Surratt (Prayer Dancer)
Jonathan,
thanks for your kind comments. The follow-up to this article will appear in the issue due out in the next two weeks, as I was unable to submit one in the most recent issue, due to sickness.
Am interested as to if you know any of the names of the people your parents would be affiliated with in the Apostolic Church UK. I myself am not part of the UK version of the movement anymore (not since I was 3 – 4 years old) but certainly know many of the saints there. If you can find out, that would be great.
Thanks,
Andrew
Hey Andrew,
My parents are divorced and I am a Teen Challenge graduate from Wales, UK. Who is now pioneering the ministry of Teen Challenge in Korea. So your prayers from all the team is much appreciated at this time. Well one of my counsellors was a godly man by the name of Robert Hughes, who lives in Gorslas near Llanelli. He is the closest and most memorable contact I had with the apostolic church. Also, there was the Carr family, Malcolm and David Carr, they were memorable preachers. But the most memorable is Robert Hughes, a saintly man with a deep devotional life.
By the way, I read the article above and well…. OK! Anyway, my w-fe is calling me.
Look forward to hearing from you and your next article. Praying for your physically recovery.
Jonathan
Just a thought…
…Jesus didn’t even “go alone”. He got 12 guys around Him and had women traveling with Him to support His ministry. In fact, in His darkest hour He desperately wanted His three closest friends with Him so He wouldn’t have to “go alone”. You can practically hear His frustration and His fractured heart when He cries out, “couldn’t you pray with me for at least an hour?!”.
And Jonah wasn’t sent to a town with 50 churches and properly functioning prophets and apostles. He was sent to a nation who brutalized their prisoners of war, skinned people alive, ripped open preganant women and dashed the skulls of babies on stone walls. They worshiped demons by burning their children alive to devils. Nineveh had no prophets, churches, apostles or such. Jonah’s don’t get sent to places like that.
It seems that folks may object to these kinds of guidlines not out of fear of stifling the Spirit life of God, but because their self given license to loner-prophetism is perhaps being pulled on by the Lord.
Been there, done that, bought the shirt and sold it on Ebay. (Thanks Bryan, you played a huge role in my freedom from that).
Grace and peace,
mark jr.
Just to muddy the water:
Leonard Ravenhill in “the picture of the prophet.”
“The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.”
“He lives in ‘splendid isolation.’ ”
“He is friendless while living and famous when dead. ”
http://www.ravenhill.org/prophet.htm
Bill,
I take Ravenhill’s words to be a statement of what in fact happens, rather than the ideal that we should aspire to. And with that, I think he was probably speaking in hyperbole, rather than literal absolutes, in order to get his point across. Though I’m not very well versed in Ravenhill’s writings, so I could be wrong…
Bill,
I have read most L Ravenhill books, and in fact read that particular segment you quoted. It seems that L.R is giving a portrait of a ‘man of God’ rather than a particular ministry gift vs another. Often many of the saintly men like Tozer, LR, Arthur Wallis and Duncan Campbell etc would use the term ‘prophet’ as a descriptive word for the messenger of God in a general sense. (I think if Paul, Peter or Philip were around today, they would have been seen as spokesmen for God, despite their varied functions) Like the article states. the singular prophet of the OT embodies most of the functions of the fivefold in the NT. So for me in one sense, yes it is a lonely walk for God’s spokesman, even for the NT prophet, however, those of genuine spirituality must respect his role within the NT context and bring loving encouragement and help within the team context. You will often find it is those ‘despisers of prophecy’ (1 Thess 5) that will make it a tough task. If the prophet is in good relationship with the team, then he is open to his unique ministry being judged and encouraged by the brethren. All prophecy must be judged, but in a right relationship and context of team -ministry. So all spokesmen of God – Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher, will have to in some degree walk a lonely path against the world, and even carnal Christians. But the prophet will feel extra sensitivity to this due to the unique nature of his ministry and character. the prophet has a sensitive heart, that is moved by the Spirit and ‘carried along’. That in turn will bring attack from satan and people. The team’s role is to cover that and protect him, but more importantly the team compliments one another’s ministry in revealing the whole counsel of God and the mind of Christ. So in that sense, all are ‘prophets’ in a general sense, but remembering that the NT recognizes the specific prophetic function of the man as the gift.
Dear Andrew Yeoman:
I do not think we have met, but let me applaude you on your excellent Article concerning the role of the New Testament Prophets. My life is consumed in this ministry full time, and I can tell you from the “trials of the trails” that you are on target! About teamwork, let me double underscore that. The single most error of most New Testament prophetic ministries is and always has been “Independence” and that stems from the root of the Number 1 cause of failure in prophetic ministry-Pride. This is not to say “NT Prophetts” are to golf or have coffee daily with Apostles or coverings, but we must get connected at the proper source. I value those words and thank you for taking the time and effort to teach us soundly from God’s Word and your vast experience of the ministry journey. Blessings to you as you continue sharing God’s heart to ours.
Your friend in the Harvest,
John Mark Pool, author and co-founder
Word to the World Ministries
P. O. Box 879
Baker, LA 70704
225-771-1774
I second Marcus and Andrew’s comments on Ravenhill. Also, here is a segment on the issue of the prophet’s need for relationship from Art Katz’s forthcoming book THE PROPHETIC CALL. Even if that relationship takes place in a setting that’s a bit different than Art would’ve expected for ‘community’, the relationship is the key point here. It’s well worth considering:
I would unequivocally say that all prophets need to live in an intensity of fellowship or a community of believers. Prophets need to be brothers amongst the brethren, and subject to the same sanctifying work that affects character as any other in the fellowship. Prophets need this more than any other office. They are intuitive men, and can therefore be moved by vagaries or impressions that emanate out their own hearts, and which would move them into error. For a prophet, this is his wilderness situation, which has a wonderful, redemptive quality to keep men honest and real. And if the prophet is not real, what could be hoped for in the Church? And if the Church is false, what is its witness to the world? Therefore, the prophet needs to be organically joined to an expression of the Body of Christ. If he is some kind of floating phenomenon, a phantasm, who does his own thing independent of the Body, and flits off to the next meeting, or if he has no organic roots with the people of God, or if he likes isolation and to be by himself, then he puts himself in jeopardy. The prophet needs daily surveillance because there is no one more subject to error, and warp, and becoming false than a prophet. A teacher is not in such a place of jeopardy because he typically has a more balanced personality.
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Dear Bryan,
Wow, what a conversation you all had! Poor Larry, though. Sort of like being caught up in a tag team wrestling session, only you got nobody on your team.
I have read all your comments Bryan, that’s why I’ve addressed this to you even though you didn’t write the article. Frankly, as good as the article is, the passion behind your comments have inspired me more. You write of knowing God’s intentions and also knowing how He intends to fulfill them. Don’t you feel at all concerned with standing so rigidly in that position? The Israelites knew that the Messiah was coming but did any of them ever dream He would come as a baby in a manger? And why was it so difficult for the Jewish people to accept that God had chosen the Gentiles when the OT clearly shows that He is going to? Is it because their eyes had not been opened to understand the meaning of those verses? It makes me think of how Jesus told His disciples they couldn’t yet understand because of their hearts being too hard. Mark 6:52
When I say that there is still much to be revealed, I don’t mean that there is anything new. It has already been written but there is still much that our eyes have not been opened to understand and the deeper we choose to go with Jesus the more fully we will have eyes to see. Look at how He told the disciples how much He would suffer and yet they still didn’t understand until it was finished. God once told me that His Word is “simple enough for babes to understand and yet complex enough for a mindful man to chew on all the days of his life.”
At the first two churches I was part of they asked me to be on their leadership team. I was too new a Christian to know that I was too new to do that. It ended up with both places going crazy on me when I said the things that I felt like God wanted me to say. And trust me, God had to push me so hard to get me to speak and I did so by going to them one on one, one ‘leader’ to another. The things I said was so nice that I honestly thought they would thank me but back then I had no concept of the nature of conviction and each one ripped me to shreds. Strangely, each place shut down shortly after I left.
But since both places were new church plants I learned all about being an armor bearer and not ever taking anybody from another church. Then I get to my new Pentecostal church and God tells me to invite one of the women from the old church to come to my church. Well, I thought I must be hearing wrong. Surely God would never ever tell me to do what my leaders had taught me to never ever do!
I find it interesting how some say that if God wants you to do something He will ask you and if you aren’t interested He will simply find someone else to do it. That was not the case for me at all. When God wanted me to say or do something He would bring it to my mind and then it was like it would become a hammer slamming in my head until I would finally give in and obey just to get Him to leave me alone. You have to understand that I was a person who would not even verbally disagree with someone because I had been so beaten down that, in my mind, there was nothing worth fighting over and if someone got angry at me for any reason I would completely fall apart. Suffice it to say, I didn’t seem like a good choice to be a mouthpiece for God. I used to cry and beg Him to pick somebody else or just tell people directly whatever He wants them to know. The first time He told me that He would be with me, I actually said, “Can I get a real person?”
I am ashamed to admit that I once begged Him to just leave me because He was making me crazy with longing and I didn’t understand what was happening to me so I accused Him of making me a freak. He left and I felt so pathetically empty I cried and begged until He came back. At the second church I read my first Wigglesworth book and began to pray for revival and when I shared that info with some of the other leaders they smiled at me the way you would smile at someone just before you lock the door to the rubber room. I prayed so hard because I thought that would make God change them to be like me, but instead He moved me to where other people were already praying for revival. It is important that you know that almost everything God has told me to do other people, including leaders, have told me not to do those same things. Who are we to obey?
Okay, I want to get back to telling you about me not wanting to invite that woman to my new Pentecostal church because I feel you need to hear this. I read your article on Holiness and I have thought of it almost daily and I know you have a voice that is going to be heard and I want to encourage you to listen so closely to God because He will lead you along the path that is less traveled and you are not going to be able to compare your experience to any of your modern day contemporaries. And you must never ever think you already have it all figured out. He will blow your mind and never violate His Word to do it. The time is fast approaching when the smartest among us is going to sit, head in hands, all the while saying, “I know nothing.” There won’t be a trace of arrogance left among men.
When it came to my mind that I should visit the woman from my old church and invite her to my new church, I brushed that thought aside because everyone knows you don’t take someone away from another church. (That is like, church planting 101!) It came to my mind relentlessly but still I ignored the hammer in my head, convincing myself that God would never tell me to do anything that Church Leadership had taught me not to do. And then one day I was on the interstate and since I happened to be passing by her neighborhood anyway I figured I would drop by for a visit but not invite her to church since that was a forbidden thing to do. Imagine my shock to walk in and find her smoking crack. I did invite her to my church then but at that point she wasn’t interested, telling me she was going to church already. I ran into another woman who was going where she was going and this was the wife of a man who had seemed so strong to me and when I told this woman I had read something I wanted to share with her husband, she mumbled that her husband was no longer reading much of anything, not even his Bible. Stunned, I asked her what her church was like and she said “oh it’s okay I guess, all they ever talk about is the bylaws.” I didn’t know what bylaws were but I didn’t think we were supposed to be living under any kind of law and I knew that something was horribly wrong if a man was not reading the Bible.
God then showed me a vision that I hesitate to share because I fear my words aren’t adequate enough to express His heartache that I felt in what He showed me. I have shared many testimonies in which God dealt with me with such tenderness but there have been many in which His disapproval was revealed to me and it was devastating. That day He showed me a swimming pool. On the right side of the pool was a lifeguard, and on the left side of the pool there was a lifeguard. In the pool was a lone individual who appeared to be drowning. That person was on the left side of the pool and I felt the Lords heart break as, when looking at the lifeguard on the left side I saw he appeared to be asleep. But what was even more painful was to look to the lifeguard on the right and see him just sitting there, wide awake but just sitting there! The person in the water was losing strength and I began to panic and I asked God why that lifeguard was not doing something? I couldn’t believe he could just sit there! Why God why? I cried, and He replied, “because that’s not his side of the pool and He doesn’t want to offend the lifeguard on the left side.” And then it was as if I was standing before Him as He held court and I had to answer questions that broke my heart. Questions like, did I think He cared not for the one who was struggling for life? Did I think one death was of no importance to His Kingdom? Did I think, could I possibly know Him and think, that He cared more about the toes of a lifeguard than about the suffering of one lost sheep?
Dear God in Heaven knows I died that day. What sorrow He suffers over the traditions of man. He has informed me that His “Bride will not be a common whore joined with doctrines of demons disguised as new wine.” How dare we presume to know His ways when we talk about Him more than we talk to Him? God help us all to have the eyes of our heart fully opened to see His will done His way on a daily basis and to never presume to already know exactly what it is because then our faith will not be able to be fully stretched and made perfect.
Bless you Bryan, for you are a good man with a good heart. May God break it ever so gently.
I forgot to add that God is going to start waking up lifeguards. And how would God wake up a lifeguard, you ask? The same way we all wake up someone. First, He speaks. And when they don’t listen…HE SHAKES THEM!
Wanda,
whilst your comments were particularly addressed to Bryan, I felt I had to respond in light of the fact that I wrote the article above.
Firstly, let me say that Bryan is a Godly and Spiritual man, who writes with a deep concern for Godly things as the Scriptures state them.
Secondly, if Brian’s ‘fault’ has been to stand for truth as it is written plainly in the SCRIPTURES, then that is a fault I too have, and we at VOR also share!
Thirdly, I have not read anything in Brian’s comments that have seemed too ‘rigid’ but in fact they have seemed Biblically sound. Hence why God has entrusted him with Leadership and Ministry in the Body which has been recognized by other brothers in Christ.
Fourthly, regarding the comments you have made. I do not know some of the specific incidents and circumstances you have spoken from, hence why it would be difficult for any of us on VOR to make a judgment on these issues, and besides that is not what this site is about! I would agree that God is not bound by man’s traditions. However, God has revealed Himself through the Scriptures, of which He HAS entrusted Godly leaders and ministers to ‘divide the Word’ of Truth. So whilst He isn’t bound to men, we ARE BOUND to Him!
There are many self claimed leaders in the western world, but there are also God’s chosen leaders in the Church, who serve with a servants heart, anointing of the Spirit, and are people of wisdom and discernment – THAT the Bible does make clear.
Personally, if I was finding that many of my ‘revelations’ were actually and generally not producing fruits of righteousness and bringing an ‘Amen’ in the hearts of Godly brothers and sisters around me, I would be a fool not to examine my own heart. I would actually go to a ministry that is proven in hearing from God, and ask them to speak into my life to bring more of a plumb-line and authentic word of the Spirit.
I encourage you to do this, and to find a NT community and submit (in the Biblical sense) to being accountable and rooted, even with your ‘words’. Remember, ‘One prophecies… another judges’ That text is VERY clear.
Also, it is the heart of the above article and Bryan’s comments.
I at times in my ministry context have brought radical messages calling for reform of wine-skins, and a radical obedience to Jesus. I have also gladly found I am not the only one in the Body doing that, but I share that heart with many – praise God! However, if one of those people who I walk with in the Kingdom were to express concern about something I said, I would listen, seek the Lord with an open and submitted heart. Not meaning that I would agree always but meaning that I have to be open to correction and accountable to brothers. And if I find I was wrong, I repent. If I was right… then they will too acknowledge in their brotherhood and meekness, and I humbly receive that. It’s called ‘WALKING TOGETHER.’ Here there is NO differential in the Scriptures.
Blessings,
Andrew
Wow Andrew! How I wish that kind of zeal was expressed when one of the pitiful sheep is hurt rather than when leadership is protecting one of their own. The Body of Christ would probably then be exactly as Jesus intended, don’t you think?
I do not feel in the least that I was disrespectful of Bryan at all. There is no doubt in my mind that he is indeed chosen by God to be leader of His sheep. The word ‘rigidly’ seems to have inspired quite a sense of offense in you and that is unfortunate as it was not my intention to offend you. I simply mean to do exactly as I wrote, encourage Bryan to remain open to God on a daily basis as to how He intends to fulfill His desires for His Church. And to Bryan (not Andrew! You can sit down now, Bryan is a big boy and don’t need you to be his armor bearer. But I do know this really pitiful mentally handicapped woman from one church I served at who said something a leader didn’t like and was promptly kicked to the curb. If you still feel all worked up to protect someone, I’m sure she would throughly appreciate some of that!)
So to Bryan, if I offended you please forgive me as it was not my intention to do that. I have read much in your archives and I have been so blessed to witness your heart. Please think about this if you decide to respond. Once someone said I had viciously attacked her when I said something through a text. Now, to me, someone speaking something that is in disagreement to how I feel or think is not a vicious attack but I do realize that since she had never suffered actually ‘being’ viciously attacked in a physical way, then it is possible that to her, mere words of disagreement would be a vicious attack. Interpretation is subjective. Please keep that in mind as I feel such a supernatural love for you and I pray for you regularly.
Anyway, when writing my comment to you Bryan, I used my own testimony to illustrate how God showed me that what I thought I knew to be correct, and had been taught was indeed correct, was not correct at all. He has been teaching me much along those lines because of years of writhing on my bed and soaking my pillow over the condition of His body. My brother commited suicide after being told that he was cursed because of what his ancestors had done. No leader bothered to tell him that Jesus broke the curse, but rather had him repenting repeatedly for the grapes that had been eaten by those who preceded him. What a tragedy! (maybe not to some as my brother was a nobody, not a leader) God has shown me that error leads to spiritual death for people and as you stated in your article on Holiness, I know you don’t believe that God’s people have purposely walked off into deception (that had to have begun as the Truth was deviated from) and neither do I and that is precisely why we should all be allowed to speak what He shows us to one another without being called a fool for doing so. Of course, you should judge my words, just as I should yours. I would never follow any leader anywhere just because he stands up in a church building. I truly pray that, you Bryan, see my heart in this matter.
And Andrew, if this site is not open to comments that do not slobber you all with flattery then you all should remove the option to comment.
And Andrew, as to the fruit that has been produced by my walk, lets just say there are days when it is rather hard to see for all the fruit flies that follow me. And that is evident to my Christian brothers and sisters. Once when I shared at church that I came from a background of suicide and child abuse, a woman, or I guess I should say, a Christian sister, later screamed at me across a prayer circle binding the spirit of child abuse and suicide. I must admit, back then I was so crushable and it hurt so deeply but then the next day I went to a nursing home where I go to hold people and pray for them and this woman who is not even a resident there walks right up to me and takes me in her arms and she holds me for like three solid minutes and you know what I learned from that? I learned that it is certainly TRUE that we will know them by their fruit!
And I am part of a NT Church, thank you. Just as I shared that when I was praying for revival God moved me to a place where others were praying for the same thing, for the past year I have been praying for Church leaders who are humble and have a servant heart and don’t revile back and all those wonderful things that God tells us about in His Word. And God has placed me in a Church where the Pastor is well loved for just that! I am so blessed. God always takes care of me and comforts me because I do what pleases Him but I do appreciate your concern for my spiritual well being. And of course, I can promise you that I will take all you have so passionately expressed to me in prayer to God because He taught me very early on to never lean on my own understanding in any situation. I pray that, like me, you too will be so closely led.
God bless you Andrew
Wanda,
Thanks for your comments. I can assure you that we at VOR will never have a problem with people disagreeing with our views, so long as they do it within the rules of the site that Marcus moderates.
Again I re-iterate, all our views, teachings and ‘revelations’ are to be judged by the Word, and by brothers and sisters in the Lord. In-particular, God has set leadership ministries in the Church to equip / release the saints and protect the people of God from the false doctrines of the enemy. If we fail to walk out our christian life together with such people (including allowing input, even to ‘Spirit utterances’) then we walk dangerously, not safely as Christ wants us to.
Our heart as leaders in various church settings is to always care for those suffering, abused and hurting and bring Kingdom restoration to them. But it also involved standing with like minded brothers when something a ‘untrue’ as been suggested about their intentions or character. Caring for sheep, also involves protection and correction. My point is that I do not stand for a leader’s fraternal against the laity, but neither to entertain talk that is not true of a brother that I know walks in grace and humility.
You said: ‘Bryan, for you are a good man with a good heart. May God break it ever so gently.‘
You also mentioned that Bryan was too ‘rigid’. If that is your view you are entitled to it. But again I emphasize, that this man is a Spirit-filled, Scripturally sound and humble man of God. Therefore, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with him, if someone feels that his intentions or statements are anything other than Scriptural or out of a hard heart. He is quite the opposite!
My statements about how we are to walk together as saints, were not so much about your ‘situation’ as I clearly said. (We know nothing of that, and this site is not for that.) It was merely to respond generally about some statements you had made about ‘what God had shown you’, and in regard to some unfortunate events in your own life. Again, I don’t want to comment specifically about those things, but again emphasize the remedy is in walking in the Light and fellow-shipping with one another.
Firstly, if God has shown you things personally, then praise God. Keep walking in them. But do not try to put those things on others, when you do not know their personal walk.
Secondly, even those things ‘God shows you’, are subject to Scripture, and I hope you allow Godly input into those things to bring greater balance. (This is a general statement, not at any thing you have written per-se)
Finally, I thank God you are part of a NT Church, and that after so much turmoil you have found some good people to serve with. I was again just stating general statements of common practical truth that we all need to abide by.
My only response would be that you should refrain from trying to put various parts of the Body back into place, when you may not know them personally. By all means, you as part of a NT Church, can have a valuable role in sharing your walk with others, and watching out for each other. That is your God-given sphere of influence, with NT Leaders. However, outside of that, speaking about the ‘heart’ of other ministries we do not know is something we should avoid.
I too like you pray for a genuine restoration of NT truth in the Church, but basing my judgment of someone’s ‘heart’ is something I cannot do by reading an article or two.
I hope none of my words have been offensive, and if so, forgive me. But I am not standing by Bryan only because of his article and views, but because you brought into question a state of his heart. That is not the purpose of this site, nor what our aim is in writing on it.
I will not speak of the state of your heart. That is between you and God of course! But I will make Scriptural statements of community and Spiritual truths in keeping with my brothers in the Lord. And I would not be worth my salt Biblical, if I did not do that.
Again and finally, I do not do this to defend Bryan’s views only (though I see nothing wrong with them) but I will stand with him knowing his heart that is broken before God and is very open to the things of God.
Bless you,
Andrew
Andrew, ‘think it thru’ brother! You have completely misunderstood what I meant when I said-“may God break it gently” Why in the world would you think I was saying something in a negative light concerning his heart when I had just commended him for having such a good heart! OMG! I wrote, as YOU quoted, “You are a good man with a good heart” !!!
When I wrote-may God break it ever so gently- I was referring to the ongoing continuous breaking that takes place so constantly for one such as him! We readers can see his heart without even meeting him and I have no doubt it is beautiful and for that simple reason I pray that he is broken ‘ever so gently’. And it is extremely evident when reading more than a few of his articles, that he is humble and broken. Shesh!
I only found this article so interesting since it elicited such a response to one mans opinion.(that being Larry’s)
I must say that if the ferocity of your response is any indication as to toes being stepped on then I agree with Larry (comment #21 ) that this is going to be one heck of an issue for the body. May God be glorified when we all can stand as gently as Christ did when He was misunderstood.
Wanda,
my aim is not to get in an ungodly argument with you at all. I hope you hear me when I make the above comments.
To put this to bed once for all:
Again, I stress that I / we are not attacking or anyone at all for having differing views. Nor would we attack them for anything!
What we try to do however, is respond as we deem needful to each comment, especially where misunderstanding of individuals is concerned or where we feel clarity of truth is needed.
Again, forgive me if my tone has not come across properly, or if I have misunderstood yours. I can only go by the wording of your comment directed toward Bryan.
In regard to the general statements as stated above, I still stand by them, not toward you, but for us all – me included.
Thanks for your interaction and contribution.
IN Christ,
Andrew
Dear Andrew,
I told you in my response to your comment that I would take the things you said to God in prayer and I have and today God showed me something.
I like words. I count the letters and say them over and over, loving the way the syllables dance around my mouth. Weird, I know but bear with me, I do have a point. The word that came to me today is malapert. It means, “Unbecomingly bold or saucy.” Three seemingly harmless syllables until God tells you that you are the one who has been malapert. In re-reading my response to your comment I see that I was absolutely mean spirited toward you and I am sorry. You had the right to voice your opinion, just as I had the right to write mine so please be aware that I am not apologizing for my original letter. (God once chastened me, saying that if I can’t say what He tells me to say without apologizing then I should not say it at all.) But the comments I made in my second letter that were directed toward you were from me, not God.
I now realize that although God has shown me so much that is wrong in leadership, and has even instructed me to hate what is wrong, that I then took all that I have seen and dumped it on you. Again, I am sorry for talking down to you which is the same as disrespecting you for having an opinion. That was wrong.
Sincerely,
wanda
OK, a good word. Recall too that Jesus said he would send prophets, and that Acts mentions and names some. It would be interesting to see what the NT prophets so recorded prophecied and did and how that brought glory to Christ as well as showed things to come, and who were of the Messiah, and who were not.
Jabez,
it is interesting that not a lot of NT prophecy is recorded, and for good reason. (Except that of Agabus in parts, mentions of some ‘Spirit’ activity in Acts 16, and then in Revelation 2 – 3.)
The reason is that prophets were in the NT with Apostles in bringing revelation by the Spirit, in light of Christ’s coming. We go from a singular ministry to a five fold in Eph 4. Also, NT prophets in the main did not write Scripture, as they do in the OT but apostles it seems did, with one or two others.
If prophets could function in the NT freely with others bringing a ‘now word’ of the Spirit, without being writers of Scripture, can by the same token apostles and prophets do so today, without adding to Scripture, yet perfectly in keeping with it by the Holy Spirit?
Andrew
So, certainly Paul as a NT Prophet told of the future, interpreted what would happen to our bodies, gave details of the coming AntiChrist, offered details of the Parousia, spoke of the God set boundaries of Nations by revelation on Mars Hill, etc. and was an Apostle who beheld Christ directly and was so sent as well. I am uncertain that Polycarp served both functions, or that other widespread NT Prophets activities were necessarily tied to both functions of anointing to uphold the word of the Risen Lord with authority [as you wrote to me in an e-mail (see Acts 20:23 with 21:10-11; 11:27-28; 15:30-32; 12:3; 16:2, etc.)]. Were those so called active primarily at worship, as mostly so in gatherings these days (Hermas Mandate 11:9, Acts 13:1,2)?
That they were ranked in importance second to the Apostles, as distinguished from them is clear enough (I Cor. 12:28-31), and with the Apostles they were considered a ministry of foundation of the active first century church. The scripture does not meld the two functional anointings as in one minister of ministry and so carries the Prophet into present church context (as you seemingly wrote me). Again, with them, they established foundations for the active first century church (Eph 4:11; 2:20). This is cited as about the foundations then established.
Active around the area cradling the arising fellowships, they had active bonds and groups in circles of gifted ministries in recorded scripture and employed the Tenach (Acts 11:27, 13:1; Revl. 19:10, 22: 9; I Cor. 12: 29; cf. Barnabus 16:9; Acts 7; cf. Rom. 11:27; 1 Cor. 15: 51, 54-55; cf. Isa. 25: 8).
Timothy had had their words spoken over him for confirmation of his calling. Just so, what I requested in my earlier post was a look into what they did, and how that brought glory to Christ as well as showed things to come (per Yeshua’s outlines of what the Spirit would reveal, per Jn. 13:36 through early 16). These then were normal participants in active churches.
Actually the NT has a great deal of information on such application and work and benefit to the Community of Christ (e.g., all cited above, plus I Cor. 14: 3 &4; I Tim. 4: 14; Jn. 16: 12-14; the Didache 11:7). Apparently the work was as varied as eing of what our Lord spoke of the promised Spirit’s enablements. Astounding that a NT Prophet can carry the command of the risen Lord, revealing the Lord’s mind after He is elsewhere than on earth (I Cor. 14:29-30, 37; Rev.).
Thnaks for your thoughts on why they had not more words recorded, but, as stated, the Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Christ and was active in those mentioned fellowships, undoubtedly doing what Jesus stated the Spirit would. My own history included being in a fellowship for almost a decade where such activity was common–all too common–for, the few ministers held on to their own positions to teach and preach at the expense of the growth and development of others to the full measure of Christ for alike possibilities. The prophetic became the only means for expression for those in the gatherings, therefore crippling other such possibilities of faith’s expression in that context. Sadly ministerial hogging of the podium was not the model of growth for which Christ prepared those accompanying him, as expanding his capabilities after he went away. Meeting contexts in a real sense limit by placement what it is the Spirit can accomplish abroad through those who received the promise.
Karen, and Wanda,
Greetings in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha Mesheach. I extend the right hand of fellowship to you in His Name. May we be equally submitted to His Lorsdship. May we operate in grace and truth, where grace, peace, and love are extended from, to, and among us.
I read your open comments with interests here, and too as to the unique kinds of conscience you both seem to have, the gifts with which you are interacting within the churches, and the thoughts you have shared openly–thank you!
You mention your time spent in the prayer closet you each know, by personal listening and responding to promptings you have heard, and as to your interface experiences and subsequent ponderings of consequence. One thing that must be stated as highlighted in the article Andrew has shared is the necessity of NT Prophecy to operate in NT circles of regard, influence, and order–as Andrew shared in a subsequent response here–as to sharing prophecy for its resulting judgment and consideration by those also so gifted within the assemblies
It is a reality of the gift and ministry involved to risk giving words to people, and to be involved in the sometimes strained communication processes that incur as a result of giving such words.
Karen–I found your words and reporting honest, exacting, and open. Wanda–your sharing seemed alike in openness and honesty. There are other cirteria also for weighing your words. When a person carrying a word interfaces with an preexisting religious order of people they are risking vulnerabiity to its pronouncements, posture, and predicament. By the last word, predicament, I would define this as being all the conditions which exist as to that order’s state of being. This would include the beliefs involved, their soundness or lack in NT scriputure based terms, their own histories, emotional makeup, political and unwritten rules protocols of administration and address, the way that meetings happen, and the processes or lack of Mt. 18 in relationships within the gatherings of such religious orders.
In other words, when you go to and pronounce statements before such a peopled structured gathering or as 1:1 words, there will be a communication process involved, not necessarily reducible entirely to NT learned sensibilities you may have as a result of your own convictions, study, histories, motives, and emotional make-up. I know what it is to move and be and proclaim in NT ordered prophetic circles, and so within NT bonds, and boundaries; It is when other unspoken social-emotional-political sensibilities come into the mix of prophecying that a particularly grey area of personal conduct interface comes into play; this will have constructed conditons where the one prophecying’s own being thus becomes vulnerable in the conduct of doing and risking such a minisity’s interplay with others so gathered as religiously organized and ordered. Please consider thoughts I give here so holding, i.e., if you wil continue to move and be of NT prophetic conduct or ministry.
The grey area is the respect of the appointment means and methods of any standing ministry, and its resulting regard, suspicion, or disregard of such. Ealize that prophecy shared here exists as coming from (sourcing) outside an immediate religious construct or system’s minsterial ordainment processes, and how people and leaders of such a semi-permiable religious system’s personal loyalties and alliances actually work in practice. Trust is to be both extended and earned in applying a personal ministry anywhere, anytime. It is already exteded by a religious system to its own ordained ministers.
This is a grey area–call it in your cases a prophetic arena–which involves personal risking and resulting proving of your establishiment before those whom you address to do what you do; it comes with the ultimate risk of a personal and messages conveyed rejection The NT tells us to test and prove all things including any words you may bring. And, it tells us and warns us often of false teaching and false prophets often; so too the Pastoral letters establish and Jesus warns as well. So, it goes with the territory, or ministry, that you and your words will be tested, taken to task, objected to, and contemplated (not simpy received as gospel up front).
Karen, your stream of consciousness prose related in this blog offers a heart that is tender, reflective, sensitive, motivated and interactive–yet gives no qualification of your beliefs, background, groundedness, or submission to NT authority. Andrew has pointed out that such a person becoming an active prophet, in the NT sense of the ministry, carries with its yoke: the need for fitting in with other existing ministries of an assembly among those gatherings of believers in which such ministries also to a lesser degree risk their operation. It is far less risky to be, for example, the central Messianic so-called Rabbi, the Pastor, the Preacher, or Teacher (than a visiting Prophet)–for-such a ministry is more readily identified as established as already proven in the realities of a given gathering, flock, church, Ecclesia, or whatever such a gathering calls themselves (Messianic Synagogue, e.g.). My own fellowship is within an Evangelical denominational church, where I submit to its authority, and in leadership in a Messianic gathering as well. I also fellowshipped and moved in this arena for two decades in Charismatic clircles FYI).
As new church plants result from some ministry laboring somewhere, sometime, being “sent” forth from some other preexisitng religious system, such souls so ministering for a grounded establishment do not find themselves in a similar predicament as to needfully providing proofs of their own anointing, appointing, and approval to do what they do; In Evangelical circles, which do not often recognize the present day NT ministry of prophecy or a prophet, clergy receives ordination. It is a process for ministerial validation. Likely, the ministers you and Wanda are addressing have such credentials.
Their credentials include study to show themselves approved among the religious system which they represent, and as to their own understanding, doctirie, and affiliations; They did not suddenly appear like John the Baptist from the Desert, wearing strange primitive clothing, and eating a basic prophets’ diet, wild eyed, confrontational in approach, and controversial in standing or placement; They appeared through a long term and selective process stemming from roots which can be said to be both interpretivally scriptural, and religious system derivative.
So, in approaching any minister or gathering so disposed, coming on as a prophet from elsewhere, your burden of proof of an alike establishment is much greater on top of carrying the message you bear. Hence, it becomes most desiteable for such ministries to stem from known gatherings, or Ecclesias, of characters of persons known, viewed as stable, and whose confession and agreements of sound doctrine are also known. Let me here encourage you both regardless.
Wanda, I too have experienced the words of Bryan P. as being delivered as emphatic, and therefore rigid; I took to task some of his resulting teaching statements or between the line rules of NT engagement, as were posted elsewhere in this on-line magazine. I also disagree that the office of Apostle, as Paul outlined it to be, is replicable today with an qual or needful as desired anointing. The chosen Apostles of New Testament authorship are uniquely the guarantors of the faith, for, what they teach and taught stems from direct relationship with the living Christ.
Andrew, Bryan and I may disagree on other matters of docttine in these blogs, and respectfully will pursue such matters as we will. To be heard reasoning together becomes important, for this is their own dog and pny show, not ours.
I judge your remarks, Wanda, as within the pale of NT Prophetic truth’s adminsitration, in the context of this blog: of the words, both positive and cautionary, written of Bryan and discerning of his calling and its administration. My statement is given as a result of reading his remarks and representaions of a manner of authoritative, borderline authoritarian, pronouncement as are made in this magazine. What you shared was not at all demeaning or derogatory, but cautionary as to the ego involved in his ministry. This would be consistent with the heart of Christ regarding his ministries in these times. I also uphold Andrew’s defense and regard of Bryan as a called teacher to the wider body. Wanda, I see no malice, no disrespect, in what you have shared, and would personally receive it as a word from the Spirit coming through you if it were being given to me as for me as such.
I operated in the realm of NT prophecy for twenty years, in bodies, as an accepted and accedited participant in these circles. Andrew,, your points are well taken, and you do stand side by side with Byran, in background, calling, and intention. I also caution that truth does not need defending, as such. Don’t overpower the sent Wanda’s with intellectually viable arguementation, or points, hear the Spirit and heart behind such remarks. You have writings herein by two women with prophets’ hearts, sensibilities, and concerns. They too have been before the Lord to hear and convey his words. All of us need the tempering of such words, lest we become wise in our own believed conceits, rather than wise and essentially harmless in our conduct.
So, in reivew, a careful approach to such people as Andrew and Byran is to be respected and conveyed, as I believe indeed has been the case to date, according to the limited information I glean from the letters offered here, a knowledge of what the Lord said as to communication processes operating in Mt. 18, These are of the Way Karen and Wanda have offered in this comments section.
Jabez Hart, M.A.: CMD;with post graduate studies in the NT and Counseling, having become a Messianic believer in 1971-72, being born in the flesh the year modern Israel came to be. SYI, I have over thirty five years of being under authority in the Chruch of the Risen Lord.
July 7, 2010
Thank you, HOLY SPIRIT for this recent discussion on Heart of the Prophet!! I DID NOT remember that I’d been a part of this discussioin, until moments ago! I didn’t know WHY I was receiving emails in my private email relative to this on-going discussion! Well, that was because my comment was from Nov., 2008 — (nearly 2 years ago)!!
I came “on board” here tonight simply to say THANK YOU, ESPECIALLY, TO JABEZ H. FOR HIS COMMENTARY TONIGHT!! I HAVE NOT READ THE OTHERS. JUST YOUR COMMENTS IN MY INBOX! THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS AN IMMEDIATE ANWSER TO SOME RECENTLY INNER INQUIRIES I’VE HAD RECENTLY! VERY RECENTLY!! I AM BEING SENT “HOME” AGAIN TO WISCONSIN, AFTER 5 YEARS , OF BACKSIDE OF THE DESERT INSTRUCTION WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD! I KNOW IT IS NOT SIMPLY A FAMILY REUNION. I “KNOW” I WILL BE INVITED TO SEVERAL CHURCHES — EVEN TO SPEAK.
THIS DISCUSSION IS JUST SO ON-POINT!! JABEZ YOU HAVE BEEN MOST FAIR AND OBJECTIVE AND BALANCED IN YOUR REMARKS, I DO BELIEVE. I, OF COURSE, WAS IMPACTED (POSITIVELY) WITIH: “DON’T OVERPOWER THE SENT WANDAS . . .” AND: “HEAR THE SPIRIT AND HEART BEHIND SUCH REMARKS . . .” AND: “THEY, TOO, HAVE BEEN BEFORE THE LORD TO HEAR AND CONVEY HIS WORDS.” AND: “ALL OF US NEED THE TEMPERING OF SUCH WORDS . . . BECOME WISE IN OUR OWN BELIEVED CONCEITS . . HARMLESS IN OUR CONDUCT.”
ALL THIS AFTER RESPECTING — (AND IN MANY INSTANCES SUPPORTING) — THE POSITIONS (AND REASONING) OF ANDREW & BYRAN. THIS BEING THE VOICE OF THE LEARNED & FAIR & FIRM, DIPOLOMATIC MEDIATOR. I , SO-O-O APPPRECIATED IT!! AND TO SUM IT ALL UP WITH STATING THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT, IN SPITE OF ALL THE DIFFERENCES OF VIEWS / POSITIONS / PASSIONS / TEMPERMENTS, THAT KAREN (NOT ME) & WANDA BOTH, STILL, CAME IN COMPLIANCE WITH HOW THE COMMUNICATION PROCESS, AMONG LEADERSHIP IN THE BODY, IS OUTLINED FOR US IN MATTHEW 18.
AGAIN, I TRULY, TRULY APPRECIATED YOUR ROLE — (AND INFORMATION) — HERE!!
JUST THIS MORNING — (JULY 7, 2010 @ 9:56 AM (PST; LV, NV) — AS PART OF A “SONG OF THE LORD” I RECEIVED, IT STATED, in part:
“UNITY IN MY BODY! YEAH-H-H, UNITY IN MY HOUSE!! . . . I HAVE NO USE FOR YOUR DOCTRINES, I AM DROWNING IN YOUR DROSS! I AM CALLING FOR UNITY IN MY BODY!! UNITY IN MY HOUSE!! . . . ETC. ”
Now, I have no ideas WHEN NOR WHERE the Spirit of the Lord will guide / send me to deliver this message!! Unlike, my insecurity evident in my Nov., 2008 post above, I DON’T WORRY ABOUT IT ANYMORE!! I simply record and date and “practice” it — knowing that AT SOME POINT, SOME WHERE, IN SOME SETTING WHERE THE LORD WANTS IT DEPOSITED HE WILL LEAD ME!! And I , now, believe that just like our gifts make room for us, SO WILL OUR PROPHETIC GIFTINGS!! IT IS GETTING TO THE POINT, NOW, THAT THE LORD WILLL USE LITTLE CHILDREN AND TEENS TO PROPHESY TO WHOM HE WANTS THEM TO, WHEN HE WANTS THEM TO REGARDLESS OF TITLES!! THIS IS NOT TO DISRESPECT ANYTHING SAID HERE! IN FACT, YES, YOU DO HAVE TO “FIT” IN AND TRUST HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED, ETC., ETC. AND YOU WILL BE CHALLENGED IN YOUR WORD.
BUT, WE DON’T HAVE TO BE LONE RANGERS; NOR FALSE; NOR JOHN-THE-BAPTIST CONFRONTATION — TO STILL BE USED BY THE LORD. YOU MAY BE TOLD TO GO TO A CHURCH BODY AND JUST QUIETLY PRAY FOR CHANGE!! THEY DON’T HAVE TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A PROPHET!! YOUR ASSIGNMENT MIGHT BE TO SIMPLY BE QUIET AND TO BLEND IN AND BE LOVING AND TO PRAY RIGHT IN YOUR PEW SEAT FOR MONTHS! AND WATCH THE OPENINGS PRAYER CAN BRING!!
ONE DAY, BY SIMPLY, FOLLOWING THE LEADING AND GUIDANCE AND ALL THE PREPARATIONAL WORK AT THE FEET OF JESUS INTACT, YOUR SIMPLE PRESENCE IN A PARTICULAR BODY OF BELIEVERS , AT A PARTICULAR POINT IN PLACE, BE ENOUGH TO GIVE THEM EAR TO HEAR THE MESSAGE YOU’VE BEEN ASSIGNED TO DEPOSIT!
THEY MAY ASK YOU TO COME UP TO SPEAK! YOUR ONLY PROPHETIC MANTLE — (THE POWER DIVINELY MANIFESTED, THEREIN) — WILL BE YOUR CALLING CARD (TRUST FACTOR) IN A PARTICULAR INSTANCE! THEN, WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, YOU RELEASE YOUR MESSAGE / WORD!! DOESN’T MATTER IF IT IS CHALLENGED OR WHATEVER! HOLY SPIRIT WILL DO THE CONVICTING OF THOSE WHO NEED THAT DONE. AND WHATEVER ELSE. IF THEIR DISCERNMENT IS STRONG, AND YOUR MESSAGE IS WHAT HOLY SPIRIT HAS CALLED FOR, LET IT BE OPEN TO DISCERNMENT. DO YOUR JOB AND LEAVE.
I’M SAYING THERE IS COMING A DAY, WHEN YOU WILL BE ASKED TO STEP FORWARD. JSUT BE PREPARED. THE RABBI AND MESSIANIC CHURCH BODY I WAS CONCERNED WITIH (IN NOV., 2008 POST); RELATIVE TO HOW I WOULD FIT THERE, AND WHY LORD CALLED A “BABY” PROPHET THERE: WELL, RABBI, NOW EAGERLY IS RECEPTIVE TO WHEN I SEND A WORD VIA MAIL OR EMAIL! WHEN HE SEES THAT I AM ON TARGET WITH WHAT I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING — (IS CURRENTLY GOING ON) — THEY CAN’T HELP RESPECT WHAT THEY KNOW GOD IS SAYING.
AND I DON’T KNOW IF I’M RIGHT OR WRONG. I JUST DELIVER THE MESSAGE WHEN I’M DIRECTED. LAST YEAR, IN JULY, I WAS NERVOUS ABOUT A WORD I RECEIVED. BUT, THE RABBI, QUICKLY AFFIRMED IT — (IT WAS QUITE DIRECTIONAL CONCERNING HIM) — AND ASKED ME TO KEEP IT PRIVATE FOR NOW. FOR A YEAR, I HEARD NOTHING MORE. UNTIL LAST FRIDAY MORNING IN A DREAM. TURNS OUT IT WAS JULY 2, 2010 — EXACTLY ONE YEAR AFTER THE FIRST DIRECTIVE WORD HE DIDN’T WANT PUBLIC YET.
SO, NOW, I JUST WANT TO SAY, I DON’T KNOW A LOT! WHICH IS WHY I , SO , SO, APPRECIATE THE KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM EXPRESSED BY YOU, H. JABEZ –(JABEZ H ??) — AND BYRAN AND ANDREW AND KAREN AND WANDA!
NO, I DON’T KNOW A LOT, BUT I KNOW A LOT ABOUT WHAT HOLY SPIRIT SAYS TO ME — THE HOWS, WHENS & WHERES. AND IT IS GOOD TO KNOW THAT WE WILL BE VULNERABLE TO CRITICISM AND CHALLENGES. BUT, WELL, JUST MAKE SURE YOU ARE FOLLOWING VERY, VERY CLOSELY WHAT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS TELLING YOU TO DO. AND KNOW THE CULTURE OF THE PLACES YOU ARE GOING FORTH IN . . . HOWEVER, BEYOND THAT . . . WHO IS MAN THAT YOU SHOULD FEAR THEIR REJECTION OR CHALLENGES — SO BE IT!
ANYWAY, DIDN’T MEAN TO STICK MY NECK OUT THERE WITH ALL OF MY OWN PHILOSOPHY AND SUCH. WHAT I CAME HERE TO EXPRESS, ONCE AGAIN, JABEZ H IS YOUR VERY, VERY HELPFUL AND FAIR AND LEARNED AND ENCOURAGING ROLE IN THIS DISCUSSION. I
IT WAS AN ANSWER TO SOME THINGS I’D BEEN PONDERING IN MY SPIRIT LATELY! IT WAS MOST TIMELY, INDEED, FOR ME!! SINCE NO ONE RESPONDED TO MY POST 2 YEARS AGO, IT WAS INTERESTING FOR ME TO READ OVER IT, AGAIN, TODAY AND WITNESS MY OWN GROWTH. AND THE FACT THAT IT DOESN’T MATTER IF SOMEONE RESPONDS OR NOT, I THINK I JUST NEEDED TO EXPRESS MYSELF BACK THEN. I PROBABLY WOUDL HAVE BEEN TOO IMMATURE / INSECURE TO “HANDLE” ANYONE’S RESPONSE TO MY POST IN 2008.
OKAY, AGAIN, I THANK YOU, JABEZ H.
KAREN ALICE SURRATT
PRAYER DANCER (MOJAVE DESERT — BACKSIDE)
P.S. KAREN & WANDA, I WILL, NOW, GO BACK AND READ ALL OF YOUR COMMENTARY, WHICH SPARKED JABEZ’S RESPONSE.
Dear Jabez H,
FUNNY! Just reaslized that the “Karen” you referred to — (along with Wanda) was ME! afterall! Like I said, I hadn’t read, nor followed, this post since Nov. 2008. I thought there was another Karen, who was in the discussion with Andrew.
Okay, well, since that post, I am, and have been in, group settings where my words can and are judged. As well as, overseen by a School of the Prophets administrators & recently “covered by” two Pastors in Kenya, Africa, as they REGULARLY received and evaluate and post the words of the Lord given me. Also, two of the Kenyan pastors have, recently, made me an Administrator of their website relative to their “30 Days of Prayer & Fasting” for their Government’ss elections (constitution) coming up! There are other prophets who head Scribal Anointing wroter websites, also, who read and judge my words now. And have just, this month, been invited to post my direction words under the “MESSAGE” section of an E-Mail Magazine (out of Northern Ireland), which is called 3-In-One — they are featuring THE PROPHETIC VOICE this month.
So, again, when I posted that comment, here, in Nov., 2008, I had only just been called to spend this consecrated time period alone with the Lord at His feet! The example I’ve been given was that Paul spent 3 years in the desert after his Road to Demascus conversion — (and he “conferred with no man”) during that time.
So, I was just in the beginning of that — (well, a bit more into it) — during the time I posted the comment (Nov., 2008) post you just responded to. Nearly 2 years ago!! No, a lot of growth has happened in that time. And part of that includes having my words judged by others in authority over me! So, no worries there. And, in fact, I WASN”T trying to stay out of church at the time — it was just the journey as I was led on.
And also, the direct Word of the Lord, I received for that particular Rabbi WAS ACCEPTED, BY THE WAY. IN FACT, HE STATES, EVEN TO THIS DAY, THAT HE MOVED TO NEVADA TO TAKE THE POSITION, LARGELY, BASED ON THE WORD I GAVE HIM HAS CONFIRMATION OF HIS APPOINTMENT BY GOD. HE AGREES! THE LEADERSHIP THERE AGREED!!
Okay, so , yeah, I’m “THE KAREN” In question! : )
Jabez,
hope you are well.
I will make my final words on the issues you have raised, and only thus further comment on the article responses itself, as I dislike using the web for Kingdom issues of relationship etc.
I agree with much of your sentiments, however we all must remember a key thing: Karen and Wanda do not know Bryan (from what I gather) or Dr Mike Brown or myself. (If that is not strictly true please forgive me, though I certainly do not know them)
Because of this we can of course respond to any points on the article/s. Any so called ‘spirit utterances’ on this site we judge by the testing of Scripture, and / or their truthfulness… but we cannot judge the person’s heart, because again, we do not know them. That works both-ways, from readers to us, and us to the readers.
My ‘Spirit utterances’ are tested within the local NT church I am a leader in, along with the team of ministers / elders here, and also those with whom I have a relationship with. I would have no right to expect to walk into a new situation and demand a respectful listening ear to my words, without any relationship and. That is both Biblical and common-sense.
My point is, people are of course free to agree or disagree with all and any articles on here, in a spirit of love, if they claim to be followers of Jesus. But we respectfully ask that no personal prophetic judgments be made on this site, because this propbably is not the place for it, and secondly we know nothing about any of the people on here, and or the spirit they come in.
I would respectfully suggest Jabez, as learned a man as you obviously are, that one thing is missing from your comments above, and that is a basic spiritual principle: We not only receive the ‘word’ but the ‘messenger’. Paul, formerly Saul, was not extended the right hand of fellowship from Jerusalem until later on, probably for such a reason.
We cannot and should not do ‘web church’. I respect both Wanda and Karen’s views, as well as yours. (Especially with you, Jabez, I have enjoyed a respectful and loving debate around the Word of God) And I do not wish to come to hasty conclusions about their hearts before God, because I have never met them.
So for me, to accept a word or statement beyond article critique, as a ‘word from the Spirit’ takes a Spiritual testing, and a character testing… and demands that I know their character and work for the Lord, that I cannot vouch for. That’s why we all should operate in NT communities. And I hope that all of us are allowing all ‘revelations’ to be tested by the brethren. In saying this of course I am making statements of what I believe as truth, not regarding the people themselves, because again, I’ve never met them.
Now of course, by the same token you must read our articles on this site, and judge for yourselves, and we encourage you all to make open comments. But our articles are generally and not personally applied, and are proclamations of what we believe together to be truth, not directed at individuals but exhorting us all to good works.
Nothing wrong, Jabez, with your loving gracious sentiment, but to accept the people on the premise of a comment or two, is not ‘proving all things’. For me, that is what is missing from your otherwise good words.
Bless you, and I hope we can continue to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, and continue to have loving dialogue on some important issues for the progress of the work of the Lord.
Andrew
Karen,
Praise God! Am glad that you are growing in God’s grace. We welcome your comments here always!
So pleased that you also realised that ‘Karen’ was you :)
Just one thing, Paul was a specially appointed Apostle, born out of due time… he played a foundational role in establishing Biblical truth for all time. Of course God can visit you, reveal Christ to you, but it will always be within the scope of NT revelation, for God cannot deny Himself.
Blessings,
Andrew
Note: Dear Andrew: IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME — (KAREN SURRATT) — I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BYRAN!! SO, I REALLY DON’T KNOW HOW MY NAME GOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE REMARKS MADE BY WANDA. I , TOO, WAS CONFUSED, AND THOUGHT THERE WAS “ANOTHER KAREN,” BUT WENT BACK TO READ — SEEMS I WAS THE ONLY ONE.
I THINK THAT JABEZ H. WAS SIMPLY RESPONDING TO BOTH OF US — TOW DIFFERENT ISSUES. BECAUSE, ALL I WROTE — (NEARLY TWO YEARS AGO IN NOV., 2008) — WAS MY APPRECIATION FOR BYRAN’S ARTICLE. AND THEN, WENT ON A LONG DISCRIPTION OF MY OWN PERSONAL JOURNEY. BUT, I CLEARED ALL THAT UP TODAY WITH MY LAST POST.
SO, I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE, VIA YOUR LAST COMMENT, THAT I’M STILL, SOMEHOW, LUMPED IN THE DISCUSSION BETWEEN YOU AND WANDA. SO, IT IS NOT CORRECT FOR YOU TO SAY: “KAREN AND WANDA DON’T KNOW BRYAN” IN THAT CONTEXT.
I KNOW I DON’T KNOW BRYAN, BUT, PLEASE UNDERSTAND, I NEVER, EVER SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE NOR CHALLENGING ABOUT BRYAN. OKAY, TO MAKE IT CLEAR — IT IS NOT ME!! NOT THIS KAREN!! AND I HAD NO PART IN THE DISCUSSION OF WHAT YOU AND WANDA AND JABEZ H WERE / ARE DISCUSSION! OKAY? OKAY! : D
BUT, I DO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU COULD HAVE READ IT THAT WAY — BECAUSE I DID THE SAME THING — IN FACT, I THOUGHT JABEZ H WAS REFFERRING TO SOME OTHER KAREN.
NOT-ME-KAREN (SURRATT) : )
Karen,
all clear! :) My response was more for Jabez than to you, so please don’t feel singled out. I was just referring to the ‘Karen’ that Jabez was talking of. And if I mis-applied who said what and and how and when, please forgive me!
(Again, emphasises my dislike of web church relations :) I always prefer face to face interaction. So Karen, be free to be the Karen you are, and not the Karen you may not be (hope that’s not confusing.)
Anyway, my point about ‘Karen and Wanda’ was not personal about you, but rather just emphasizing that none of us, from what I gather, know each other, therefore to just accept any prophetic personal words would be foolish on our part, both ways, without face to face interaction.
Hope that you continue to move in God’s grace.
Hope that helps.
Blessings
Andrew
ANDREW,
Thanks! No, your “karen being karen” was NOT confusing! Seems I “was” the Karen Jabez was addressing. However, I’m saying I SHOULDN”T have been part of the Wanda / You / Jabez conversation in the first place. He was “answering” Wanda & I — (so it seems; wish he’d verify this) — as two people who posted — (albeit I was “resurrected” from this comment box AFTER TWO YEARS!!) — who had different & unique perspectives!
So, I know you weren’t singling me out in the sense you’ve just explained, but, when you say you were talking to “the Karen that — JJJabez (opps!) — Jabez ws talking of” — well turns out he was referring to me. So, I’m just making sure that it is known that I was not part of this discussion / debate or whatever it is!!
so YES, your point is VERY WELL TAKEN about not knowing each other and the value of FACE TO FACE communication! I agree! I don’t care for the website church relations either!! Which is why I’m here to say, I can see how my name, inadvertenly, got “lump” in this discussion, but I’d like it not to be.
Amen about accepting any personal prophet words . . . I AGREE . But don’t even know where that came from, nor what you are referring to, BECAUSE I WAS NOT A PART OF THIS EXCHANGE!!
SO, NOW, THAT I’M COMING FULL CIRCLE HERE — ( CIREbu — DELTE KEY NOT WORKING . . . WORKING!!) — YES, I UNDERSTAND AND SEE YOUR POINT ABOUT IT NOT BEING PERSONAL TO ME __ (YOU WERE USING IT AS REFERENCE TO JABEZ AND WAHT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT). YES, I GET THAT. THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING! YEST YES, INDEED, YOUR COMMENTS HAVE HELPED.
BUT, “IN CONCEPT,” THE “WANDA & KAREN” THING FLYS WELL!! BUT, STILL, IT’S MY NAME AND I WAS THE ONE REFERRED TO . . . SO-O-O-0 . . . HEY, I’M JUST SAYING!!
AGAIN, YES, IT HELPED!! I THANK YOU!!
NOW, GOING BACK TO MY LIFE AFTER “RESURRECTION” FROM A TWO YEAR OLD COMMENT!
: D
KAREN-WHO-IS-KAREN. INDEED!!
OM — (ANOTHER TYPO)! : )
d
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ubg ti
I have now received a half dozen replies to what I wrote in my inbox, which I do not see here, but may be posted later? Andrew, I feel what I wrote upholds what you first wrote, and what developed coversationally thereafter as a result of your interactive remarks given to two others which I mentioned in my response. My concern was that Karen was not responded to at all (two years back being essentially left conversationally isloated and ignored when she had opened up and exhibited great trust in doing so), and that Wanda was essentially rebuked. I did not get the sense from your replies, or lack of reply, that these living adopted ones were being listened to, affirmed, and cautioned where needed–why accepting them in the beloved.
All the cautions and qualifiers you prior and recently stated are found in my open remarks to them, you, and as to a word stated for Bryan by Wanda. You and I have no essential disagreements, except, that anyone risking in the way of the prophetic–unless blatantly going against written scripture and the fundamentals of our faith–needs the encouragement of reflective listening at the very least, and consideration in the light of scripture and experience generally. For anyone risking the practice of being a prophet there is a learning curve involved that is both scripturally relevant and relationally expedient. You did not seem to understand that both women were associated with fellowships and their authority structure by the responses you did not make, and then made as a rebuke in defense of Bryan.
It seemed to me, by reading your responses in defense of Bryan, that you missed the opportunity to hear the hearts of two women who opened up on this blog. They were not offering persuasion, but honest reporting. I too do not know these sisters, nor do I know of them. I am aquainted with the tyranny of noninclusion when ministries get caught up in their own self importance and self absorption (and I am not saying you or Bryan are doing that, but that I’ve seen it run its dysfunctional course in other Charismatic circles than yours). I am also aquainted with moving in prophecy in meetings, and 1:1 in my past history. I also have a great regard for what is written on the practice in the Word, and hopefully tempered my encouraging remarks with that standard.
We have to realize that we are interacting with living creatures, born again believers reportedly, and their own experiences, doubts, hopes, and callings. To whatever degree they can be encouraged we need to do so. Note all my qualifiers given in my own response. Moving in Prophecy can be a very lonely and self identity anxiety proving reality. Leaders of churches, and authors of magazine articles can seem bigger than life, and as standing in the stead of God. But too, they can be interacted with and learned from if the opportunity to establish dialogue–not uphold monologue–is extended to responders here.
We have a responsibility to love as Jesus loved, and we have the model of him traveling around his Land as accompanied by disciple-learners. He stated that his heart was meek and lowly, as it could be said both women sharing here also displayed by risking the open reporting they did. We have to rise to the occasion of dialogue, to facilitate its connections in the body of Christ, whether we know the blogger or not. I judged Wanda’s word circumspectly, and do have cautions and some red flags within as I have openly raised in past interchange with yourself, Bryan, and Daniel hereby. I did not shrink from the occasion or opportunity simply because I do not personally know any of you.
“Blessed is he who is not offended in me.” Yeshua. We have his model to not be reacting, but acting proactively, to not be offended at others who are accepted in the beloved, as are we, by new birth, by confession, by promised adoption by the Spirit, and by risking doing the will of our Rabboni. We have the challenge of getting to know one another and discernment of the presenting hearts involved.
I recommend a read to you, “Changes that Heal,” by Cloud and Townsend. That you may be enlarged in your listening capabilities. That we may share a deeper fellowship in Christ.
end statement in the first paragraph, above, should substitute while for why.
And Bryan, I have and had no reason not to receive the messengers here represented at face value. I did not discern that Bryan’s or your own ministries hung in the balance or in harsh judgment as a result of what was communicated hereby. The degree of engagement of the words Wanda shared were not threatening, or of malice–they were to be carefully monitored for consideration [period]. Was Noah known in Nineveh as a character prior to his arrival there? They were prepared apparently to hear and heed him by the working of the Spirit, for, it is written that they repented.
May none of us be swallowed up by a big fish, and receive gastic acid burns, on our ways to do what God has instructed us to do. And may our responses to others along the way be tempered of truth and grace.
Andrew, Obviously not Noah, but having some senior moments is fallible. Good wishes to you and all. –Jabez
Bryan, You worked hard on the Cisterns article and thought development, just read, which was accurate and sobering, thank you.
Andrew, As for having church here, on the blog. How would that differ from the resposive Pastoral letters the Aposles wrote and their obvious references to having church, or interacting as to universal and local church matters on this blog. If one answers that these are about doctrinal clarifications only, how can I today greet Aquilla and Priscilla? It seems a copout to not facilitate church interpretive communication hereby, and hypocrisy to desire to be of the “five fold ministries” in post modern application to forbid such interchange herein and hereby. Church is both applicable to the wider body and our local commitments, practices, and assemblies. Church then includes having interchange hereby and herein.
Jabez,
as far I am aware, Paul wrote to the congregations that he had some foundational role in, as a spiritual father to many. Of course the Colossian letter is different, but even then he was connect by relationship by virtue of one of the team founding those works.
He himself said, he would not build on another man’s foundation, and for me or anyone else to speak into the lives of those God has not given into my care, would be presumptuous at best and arrogant at worst.
That is not to say that general articles of faith, proclamation and / or teaching cannot be received, but then that is far more a general thing. And of course general debate is a good thing, as it causes us to pray more and seek the word of God. Can God speak to me through a person whom I never met? Absolutely. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is that the day to day ‘speaking to one another lives’ is built on day to day relationships, speaking the truth in love; growing in grace and being equipped by servant leadership to do God’s work – i.e. the assembling of ourselves together, as Hebrews says. Even the very best Godly websites cannot and should not replace this or try to accomplish this. Where I serve, is my avenue and circle of ministry, and only that increases as the Lord enlarges it, but only by relationship and as the Spirit leads. I do not presume to go and make my ‘word’ known to those places I have no authority within. This was Paul’s heart, so too must it be ours.
I speak merely of myself and how I find the Scriptures to portray it. I feel the western church has come way to go before we grow up into that pattern of life together.
If you feel that debating the conditions of one another’s hearts on this site is akin to Paul bring an apostolic corrective in a foundational capacity, then I strongly differ on that score.
Again, I stress, I enjoy having good debate with people like yourselves around the things of the Word, and broader subjects. But personal issues are for a different setting IMO.
Blessings and grace,
Andrew
Andrew, well put, I respect your choices in your answer, though it would not by my own. I underscore our mutual view on the necessity of local church jurisdiction and commitment. That this is the primary placement of the saints, not to become lone rangers is clear enough in scripture.
I request that in a couple of days you read my thoughts on the matter of conformity to the law and local church ministries unique challenges. This will appear under the comments section in the Mike Brown Line of Fire subject area program past broadcast on “Are we required to keep the dietary laws?”
I do feel that you and yours would benefit from loosening and limbering with trust in God as to considered interchange. Re? Establishing dialogue and greater listening skills with others in correspondence here.
Another recommended read. Boundaries by Henry Cloud.
Jabez,
of course will read your comments. PLease be assured, our not wanting to listen to the contributors on this site really is not our heart. Like I said, on matters of general Christian issues, practices, Scriptural and Kingdom themes, we want to engage in good, wholesome debate and see the Church grow in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
On other personal matters, it is not so much that I or others won’t listen, but rather I will not allow myself to get involved to that deeper level. Simply because that’s not what this site is for.
If someone says for instance, ‘I do not believe in the local church’, then of course I and others will say ‘are you sure that is Scriptural’ or ‘ is that how the Lord wants you to live?’ etc etc, but to make comments like ‘it’s obvious you have an issue with accountability…’ is not what this site is for. (The illustrations were fabricated examples by the way)
So please speak on all and any issues, and lets debate and dialogue as much as possible, without going beyond that.
Andrew
Andrew, Sorry to lead you to yet unpublished comments, as mentioned placed for posting in the latter comments section of the radio theme program of Je. 16th, Line of Fire as mentioned. So, I must pick up a little follow-up here just for the continuity of care.
You wrote “If you feel that debating the conditions of one another’s hearts on this site is akin to Paul bring an apostolic corrective in a foundational capacity, then I strongly differ on that score.” This seems assumptive, as does much of the emphatic writing style of this magazine. You might ask me what I “feel” to then understand, contemplate, and discuss it. Your response validation has been to accept debate, not dialogue. FYI you set up a straw man, then knocked it down. I have not debated conditions of one another’s hearts at all, though they can be both deceptive and desirous of a godly completion.
What I set forth here was a listening posture to two posters, coincidentally women who were openly reporting there own experiences in the arena of prophecy given to local assemblies. I then validated what I could in good conscience of their own openness, and confession, where possible. I acknowledged thereby their participation where valid, not primarily as to debatable matters of doctrine or crucible of outworking regard, but as to their being people risking in the arena of giving prophecies. I also validated one person’s prophetic statements about how Bryan came across and what was stated as to how the spirit would “break” that attitude, as to how I had experienced Bryan’s expression being rigid. This was not done cynically, but soberly, and, as mentioned in light of scripture as to how the prophetic word was to be qualified.
As mentioned here, dialogue is needed as much as monologue for communication of standards and godly guidance. Adminstering a covenant where all know him from the least to the greatest, we must have humble hearts and minds, not assumptive ones. There is a measure of assumption in the blog responses I have interacted with as to three contributing writers here, now four by the way as of yesterday, which is simply not humble in approach to other believers–equalized by the playing field at the foot of the Cross.
I can find many instances in Pauline writing, even addressing sins and errors in the fellowships in which he exerted pastoral care signals, where he had no personal knowledge of the people involved–other than a reported knowledge–and where he took the time not only to mention matters and issues, but to offer a personal confession of his being, and to reach out with openness for later feedback. His confession first is of Christ, and his approach to issues is mindful of later Mt. 18, not simply of his leadership position.
If the remarks I made for the radio theme are indeed not moderated, and I find no basis that they will not be, I may post some here. They deal with the error of a codependant model of leadership, in the instance of insistance of administration of the Mosaic law by some Messianic believers (I being a Messianic hold some special concern in this regard, in reference to what Hebrews taught on the subject of Christ’s supremacy, Royal law of love, and nonrequirement for following the precepts, where so). And these are transferable as to the pursuit of a nondependent model of leadership to other applications.
Within 100 years of the Protestant Reformation the new self autocratic churches, largely nationalistic or of a cultural association along with the marks of the Reformation in formulations of church government, set up similar hierarchies to that of the Roman Church from which they had dissasociated themselves. They then, in the sense of the liberty we know in Christ, moved against it. In the sense of doctrinal matters and their administration they moved for these. There will always be a tension between authoritarian administration and fulfillment of the rest we have in Christ through personal faith and devotion. The tension is accentuated by baggage of self identity issues from human history and development matters faced in the life span, and by any barriers, including sin, from a clear acceptance in the Promise of Christ, i.e., acceptance in the beloved.
The criticism that followers of Spurgeon and other revivalists have about a lack of passion in the denominational churches, seems counterbalanced by revialists own preoccupations with insistances for certain meeting constructs, agendas, and behaviors somehow identifying an active revival. Criticism of that preoccupation notes emotionalism, the power of human suggestion, and placing ministers in the midst of the affirmations of the people and their responses to the agenda, requests, and expectations placed on such meetings attendees. I feel any Ecclesia or ministry founded in Christ ultimately must desire for the souls responding to messages and signals given–as orchestrated–must permit room for the unique regard Christ has for pursuit of a Lost Sheep found away from the flocks and affilations of ministry placements, to respond for inclusion by trust of Him. Trust, as written, is both extended and earned. It seems to me you have advanced affirmation of the latter case, at the expense of the former case by not extending refective paraphrased listening to others here where they may be sheep not in the immediate fold.
The great error and dissapointment of the Charismatic fellowship I was in in my twenties was that it substituted the teaching of local shepherds holding sheepfolds as surrogates of Jesus, when, it was their charge to bring us to the Shepherd of our souls, in order that we might mature as believers, and warm to the ideal that Christ be formed in us. When gatherings become entities for pursuit unto themselves, and in the process do not extend the equal playing field of the cross to beginning believers, they become dependency oriented structures (with those in power feeling their feelings of empowerment and those not in power often experiencing greater and greater self doubt). It is not our charge to ask believers to remain sheep to be fleeced, but to grow and change to the complexities of behavior charted throughout Mt. 18 as a mature model for our interactions, regard of the ministry of reconciliation, and completion in the Messiah.
Ministry, four fold or otherwise, is not anointed for its own self perpetuation of the judgment of others, but for the leading of others to the full measure of Christ.
As for the fourth of concern here, I suggest you read comment 11 of the April 23rd 2009 article by Frank Turek on assumed just war.
My comments were posted in Line of Fire Je 16th, as cited in a small measure here. They more descriptively outline the difficulties of any codependent Religious leadership, opposed to a Christ promise of leadership leading and pointing to the full measure of Christ, which is judged [not written in the article] by the Law of Christ, given in the New Testament as stated to be “love as I have loved.” The Golden Rule is certainly a definition he gave us on how to approach one another in the spirit of reconcilliation always (the Theme of Mt. 18s instruction by the way).
These were posted in 10 parts after comment 260 or so.
Hello, you used to write wonderful, but the last few posts have been kinda boring… I miss your super writings. Past few posts are just a little bit out of track! come on!