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1. gnofam lantame November 20th, 2009 2:53 pm :

   HELLO MY FATHER IN THE LORD JESUS. I AM EVANGELIST GNOFAM I WAS 8 YEARS WHEN MY PARENT DIED. THERE FORE I WAS HELPLESS. IN MY 15 YEARS, I STARTED DRINKING AND SMOKING AND ALL SONT OF NASTY THINGS IN MY LIFE. THEN IT WAS ONE EVENING ABOUT 4PM WHEN I MET AN ELDARLY WOMAN GOING IN FOR EVANGELISATION IN A CHURCH CALLED 4 SQUARE WHO SPOKE TO ME ABOUT CHRIST AND I HAVE ACCEPTED HIM IN THE YEAR 1996. I’M NOW MARRIED WITH TWO CHILDREN WITH A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN CALLED ALBERTA. MY MISSION IN THE WORK OF GOD ARE HELPING THE POOR, HALPLESS, WIDOWS AND CHILDREN AND USAUALLY I GO IN FOR EVANGELATION IN VILLAGE TO PRAY FOR PEOPLE. I’M ALSO ADITOR, ORGANISOR OF CONFFERENCE AND GOING TO CONFERENCE. I HAVE A CHURCH CALLED THE INTERNATIONAL BIBBLE CHURCH THE KEY OF SALVATION. WHICH IS STARTING IN THE YEAR 2009. THANKS ADRESS: 49 AV AUGUSTINO PA DE SOUZA P.O BOX: 61884 LOME TOGO PHONE +2289180663 YOUR SERVANT GNOFAM LANTAME FROM TOGO

2. Jabez H. May 30th, 2010 4:27 pm :

   Anyone called to leadership in Togo is especially challenged.  Most of the false sweepstakes notifications by e-mail stem from this cultural region.  It would be interesting to find if Gnofam Lantame was influenced enough by scripture, the Apostles, and the Kingdom of God come to maintain his stated commitment, above.    It is not the thought that Andrew desires to be so which is the measure of who is an Apostle, but the standards which Paul and others define in their letters.  One Greek root word does not a doctrine make, like it or not.

3. Jabez H. June 14th, 2010 1:26 am :

   Andrew,

   Please expound on what you refer to as “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” and how you see this working now.  Does not any soul professing Christ receive the Promise?  Did not Jesus say so?

4. Andrew Yeoman June 14th, 2010 3:56 am :

   Jabez,

   I see it working in the same way it worked then. As Luke shows us with Cornelius’ house, upon the true message of Jesus Christ, there is faith and repentance, and upon that condition (as Peter prescribed in Acts 2) we receive the ‘promise’.

   This is not just a ‘claim’ that people should make, but a consuming infilling of the Holy Spirit, which is experiential and definite! Every single believer in NT times ‘knew’ their experience was from God, and was transforming.

   I do not necessarily think like traditional Pentecostals, that the experience is always ‘subsequent’, but let’s be clear, it was definite.

   The Pentecostals were absolutely correct in regard to the need of the experience. However, to set in dogma that it must be ‘always subseqent’ is going beyond the Scripture. For sure, some instances may have been ‘subsequent’, but not always, and not necessarily ideally in what Paul teaches.

   Today, if any professing Christian claims they have received the promise, then the Biblical plumb-line of ‘fruits’ and ‘evidences’ must accompany that. (And I don’t just mean tongues, as many say today. Although it includes that.) Rather, I mean a power to witness for Christ, a deeper experience of sanctification, a deepening of the prayer life, and a new release of spiritual gifts to edify the Body and to manifest Jesus’ Kingdom to a lost world.

   Such an experience, producing such fruit, can only be from God.

   Andrew

5. Jabez H. June 14th, 2010 11:50 pm :

   Andrew, 
   Thanks for your clarifications.  Is Acts 2:38-39 alive and well today?

   You see, I received such a promise in about 1971, but, I am uncertain that it had much effect against my own carnal nature at the time.  So,  considering what Paul wrote to the Corinthians, it seems that God is patient with some, while others are raised up to leadership relatively in short time (in Paul’s case after a few years of intense study, in addition to an encounter with risen Yeshua, mentoring by Barnabus, and apparently direct desert teaching by Christ).  So,  there seems to be no outcome of the promised formula as, for example, statistics might show.   Please further comment.

   And, should some present movement of the spirit fall on and execute results like the Jesus Movement of 1972 in the USA–which indeed changed a generation–what signs would follow?   Did not Jesus say that a “weak and perverse generation seeks after signs,” in a certain context?  What conditions would have to exist for signs following to be genuine, and not human suggestability derived (e.g. from whip em up pump em up style agendas?, or formulas which promise prosperity, in addition to relationship with God in the name of Jesus)?

   Did you review the interview with Art Katz, who I encountered during the early 1970s; what was your take on what he stated (my own take is in his comments section, if you would review that and comment on his interview and how that both encourages and cautions religious faith and behavior).

   Thank You

6. Andrew Yeoman June 15th, 2010 3:09 am :

   Jabez,

   I’ll answer you questions & points in order, so not to miss anything.

   1. Is it alive today? Absolutely! Firstly, there is no time limit placed on Peter’s interpretation of Joel prophetic promise, only that it was to be fulfilled at the arrival of the messiah. I was just 7 yrs old when God gloriously came and revolutionized my life with such an experience. But that was an initiation, as it were, into a life of the Spirit, where the above fruits started to manifest over time. I agree that God does work with different ones in unique ways. I have since received more of the same to the glory of God.

   2. Regarding Paul. Even Saul (Paul) in Acts 9: 18, has some kind of encounter of this kind when hands are placed on him. Luke in his gospel and in Acts, gives us ‘theology in history’, that now the Christ has come and fulfilled His mandate, the Spirit is given to ALL who call, and not just ‘by faith’ but by experience. That is Pauline theology also.  We can be at peace that Jesus has promised that if we ask the Father, He will give us good things. The Spirit of God is good, always – He is just like the Son.

   3. My understanding of Jesus condemnation of ‘seeking signs’ is those that chase them, always wanting proof, are never content in the Man, Christ Jesus. My thinking on this is simple. Do signs happen in the Kingdom? Absolutely. Are they the goal of our existence? No. Jesus is. But wherever Jesus is welcomed and honored, signs will be there as evidences and acts of the presence of the Kingdom. Those who have signs but never go in to know more of the One who does ‘signs and wonders’ are like the children of Israel, always unbelieving and ultimately never entering the fullness of Christ’s inheritance.

   Follow the Christ, signs will happen, and demonstrations of the Kingdom, with changed lives. Follow signs without a Christ, and you could end up in a mess.

   4. We live in an age where there is much ‘whipped up’ stuff because of the above mentality, and also the media has not helped. However, the message of Jesus (not ourselves), and the Gift of His Spirit, rightly preached in a spirit of prayer and purity, should come with manifest power, and anointing. This will bring the authentic. I personally tell people not to go after speaking in tongues when praying for them in this experience, but to long for the Spirit of God. As He fills and consumes them, it will override their carnal nature, and yes, tongues generally happen. When this has happened, I have always seen a definite experience, sometime strange to the natural eye, but always Christ glorifying, and fruit producing.

   5. I am in agreement with Art’s comment. I obviously was not at the ‘meeting’ he was relating to, but his sentiments are true and good. If American glitz, or Welsh emotionalism, or human weirdness, are ever the reason or cause for an atmosphere in a meeting, then the flesh gets glorified. If a possession of Jesus is the reason or cause, then by the way, you may see God move in strange ways, but always glorifying to the Son. God never promised ‘a way’ of encounters of the Holy Spirit happening. (Gifts, decently and in order to a problem church – yes, but never encounters) All we know in Scripture is such men who had such encounters were radically and totally transformed and spoke more of Jesus.

   One of the strangest Baptisms in the Spirit I ever saw in the early part of last decade, shook me. A young Godly woman received a word from the Spirit of Jesus, whilst in private prayer, that He would fill her life in answer to her longing for Him. One night, as we worshiped and prayed, a young man was set free from depression, and a group of young people began to weep before the Holy presence of Jesus. As we did, with much repentance, a Holy glory filled the room, and we were unable to stand. This young lady began to be filled to such an extent, that the holiness of God made her scream out in tongues. Nothing evil, but HOLY and mighty, we wept in fear of God and His mysterious ways. She spoke in another language from 8pm until after midnight, without being able to  speak in English, such was the overwhelming presence of the Lord. From that night, many young lives went on to become missionaries with me in a team to Poland, and saw a great move of God out there. Some of those now are in leadership and ministry, serving the Lord faithfully, and dedicated followers of Jesus.

   My point is, that to the human mind, it was fearful and strange. But to our spirits it was holiness unto the Lord, worship of Jesus and deliverance from the things of this world. In fact, I would say that many who have been in ‘renewal’ type meetings would have been uncomfortable in that moment or they would have been changed. God’s sword came. True visitation is uncomfortable and mysterious, as it is God Himself coming. BUT, it is always good and life changing.

   Hope that helps Jabez. May God answer the longings of your heart! And I pray in Jesus name, that you would be filled according to the measure of all the fullness of God (Eph 3) that you may receive power to manifest Christ to a dark world. The promise is for you!

   Blessings,

   Andrew

7. Jabez H. June 16th, 2010 12:28 am :

   Andrew,  You seem to be referring to experience based on manifestation.  This then would be in a setting of some kind of observable relationship, as in the upper room, a meeting or gathering.  My experience in the 1970s included healings, utterances with interpretations, and words of wisdom and the like in such environs.  This generally was the case after the 1972 receipt of Jesus by many.  But, there also was a certain insistence on this experience or that, and in awe of those orchestrating such preaching.  I am certain that a us/them phenonena also occurred which became stunting of spiritual growth for many.  Transactionally there were those in charge and those in the chairs or pews.  This seemed very edifying for those in charge, I am sure, but, in a sense crippling of the maturing of those in mass audiences whose expectancies became related to such signs as being the purpose of encounter (rather than a careful and increasingly gentle heart and studied mind).

   There also was the “submission and authority” preoccupation that, unfortunately, empowered some at pulpit central, as you acquainted with the media in part, and left the others as suggestable and manipulated crowds for meeting waves of action and activity.  Self doubt was the fruit for many who could not replicate the kind of certainty of orchestration which those at meeting pulpit central declared. 

   So, moving about crowds, or on stages, doing what it is claimed Jesus did in part for three years as miracles became the object of awe and inner questioning of souls who often wondered how to get from being in an audience to being the declarative miracle channeler of meaning, so to speak.   Then comparisons worked their unsettling fruit among many.
   So,  I mention this because of concerns for those attendees after the big meetings are no longer in the picture.  No where in the NT does it hold that that is the meaning and behavior of the faith.  Paul’s theology is highly developmental, and personal in one sense, and church oriented in others.

   Mans search for meaning is indeed altered by experience in Christ, and who but the Spirit attending one’s prayer closet can measure it?   When is expectation in Jesus presumption, and when is it inclusive of the Actions of the Spirit?   And, if one does not preach themselves then why do some wish to place themselves in the middle of the ongoing faith connection for many, including assigning meeting behaviors for participation of attendees?

   Jesus said love as I loved as a new focus and purpose; how does that fit in with fire revolution expectations?

8. Jabez H. November 13th, 2011 5:41 pm :

   Note here that Andrew did answer in detail my first questions, this took effort and scholarship, and I appreciate that. What is unclear from interpreting Ephesians four or five listed ‘ministries’ from one scripture, as qualified by two others in that letter (as well as other remarks Paul made elsewhere, along with the other letter writers) is whether there is a distinction between First Century, first established Apostleship with an eyewitness component and other NT word usage Apostleship he cites earlier otherwise.

   The church itself is certainly a prophetic instrument–where the spirit of Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ–and must always be readdressed to each and every generation.

   In Ephesians, as to a list of ministries upheld for having brought the Gospel of the King and Kingdom to the church at that juncture, we have two other qualifying statments of regard about Paul’s reference also mentioning considered components of that actual Church at that actual juncture of the Gospel having been received by it, and how the saints there being so positionally affected. In other remarks Paul makes on Apostleship, and Peter also makes on being an eyewitness among others he addresses–as to related suffering and patience awaiting the Return (in his letters and in Acts)–the qualifications of Apostleship beyond being sent come into greater focus.

9. Andrew Yeoman November 15th, 2011 12:02 pm :

   Jabez,

   my take on the Eph 4: 11 ministries is this:

   They are POST ascension, not pre, or just post resurrection. I would say the 12, along with Paul are witnesses of the resurrection – physically for the good reason of being writers of Scripture and founders of the NT Church. Others do not seem to be placed in that group, and thus do not have that role / authority. However, they function in similar patterns. Expanded and extended the Gospel, the Church, among much more.

   Ephesians 4: 11 says all five are post ascension, which means until the DAy of Christ, they continuing to be given by the outpoured Spirit. If we believe they are not still poured out as Ministry gifts, then so too POST ascension are the Gifts of the Spirit.

   So in summary: He is still enthroned, yet to return. He is still pouring out His Spirit and gifts as per Joel. Still rescuing men and taking captivity captive, even from the rebellious. He is still pouring out gifts of men, all 5.

   UNTIL, as it says, we reach maturity.

10. Jabez H. November 16th, 2011 1:43 am :

    In Ephesians 3 and one other place in that text, as well as in other letters Paul speaks of Apostles and Prophets, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

    Andrew wrote of the 12 and Paul (curiously not including James and Jude): I’ would say the 12, along with Paul are witnesses of the resurrection – physically for the good reason of being writers of Scripture and founders of the NT Church. Others do not seem to be placed in that group, and thus do not have that role / authority. However, they function in similar patterns.’ This leads me to wonder what authority does he speak of?

    In Ephesians 3 is something more implied? ’2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus’.

    Paul speaks of ‘mystery and revelation’, ‘the mystery of Christ’, what was ‘revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets’, and declares what that mystery is about being ‘members of one body’ and Gentiles and Israel as ‘sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus’. There is much in the passage as to foundations of faith.

    Curious here, and in other places he writes, is the mention of ‘holy apostles and prophets’. I wonder if the original language clarifies how they were ‘holy’ in this passage, also in Ephesians. One thing which stands out is that such holiness seems unique. I wonder in Wales if anyone there considers themselves both an apostle and holy? Christ is the cornerstone of Paul’s building and body analogies, holy apostles and prophets are mentioned elsewhere along with gifts given the church.

    Is the man down the street today calling himself an apostle holy as it is meant in this passage? Does this passage qualify the other two references to apostles and prophets set in the church in Ephesians? It seems important that the gifts given to men in the church continue. Is the holy aspect tied to direct linkage to being sent directly by Jesus, as apostles and prophets. Who then brought the truth to the Gentiles which was as foundational as the chief cornerstone?

    Does the ‘movement’ for prayer in ‘seven mountain cities’ of the USA calling itself an Apostolic Movement have these qualifications?

11. Andrew Yeoman November 16th, 2011 3:41 am :

    Jabez,

    some good questions there, and many of those would be questions I would ask myself of many of the current self styled ‘apostolic’ movements.

    Alos, those ‘holy prophets’ mentioned in Eph are mentioned as foundations in the Church, and instruments of revelation of the work of Christ, and yet none of them (so it seems) write NT Scripture. So presumably the traditional thought of apostles being only those who have written NT Scripture and limited to the a small number, must apply to the holy Prophets, if we use that citation in the sense you may be suggesting? (I know that would not be the case, since you believe in current NT prophets.)

    However, I am still waiting to hear your comment on the issue of Ephesians 4: 11….

    1. Are the ministries listed here pre or post ascension?
    2. The Spirit and gifts still being poured out from the Throne?
    3. Therefore are gifts of men still being poured out from the Throne?
    4. Has the Body reach the full stature of Christ yet?

12. Jabez H. November 16th, 2011 8:51 pm :

    Andrew,

    To address your inquiry:

    1) they are both, having been prepared as ordained pre, and as they went forth post.
    2) yes, but with qualifications which Paul mentions, and in light of the Revelation given to John and the words of the Prophets of Old
    3) “from the throne”, meaning from the Father and living Son, certainly
    4), no, and this is because of a lack of goal setting, for the Bride “has made herself ready” is the testimony on the Return

    I disagree that no NT prophets wrote scripture, for the Call as such often married Apostles and Prophets into one person, John, for example, wrote the Revelation. Peter and Paul often expound on the future promises of Christ in their letters, as both Apostles, and Prophets.

    My own calling is as a NT Prophet, to give testimony of Jesus Christ in certain situations. I am not a holy apostle however. Though devoted, as are you, I do not approach what is so described in the NT, as to such being holy by Paul’s mention in the sense God is.

13. Jabez H. November 17th, 2011 12:56 am :

    And Andrew,

    I soberly direct you to posting #13, http://www.voiceofrevolution.com/2010/12/18/david-popovici-the-secret-to-the-spiritual-life/

    Jabez

14. Jabez H. November 17th, 2011 3:00 pm :

    Oh, and Andrew,

    I quoted Paul in Ephesians on the ‘holy apostles,’ not on ‘holy prophets’. It is clear in scripture why, if we read the chosen eyewitness apostles writings. They bore an affective extension of beholding the resurrected One. Also, they were taught directly by that One. There testimony is bonded and founded in that One, not they themselves, or some new and especial anointing for personal ministry.

15. Jabez H. November 17th, 2011 3:05 pm :

    We
    must
    get
    our
    eyes
    off
    ministers
    and ministry.

    To carry the charge of the Commission, it must be embraced as a sacred trust, as ater than ministry. Idolatry comes in many ways, and when ministers sin and fall, it is always about idolatry. The infatuation and petty loyalty built of idolatry, of having a following hanging on one’s every word, exalts flesh, not Jesus as Lord and kinsman-redeemer. Let ministry bow its knees, and sweat with the whole body in setting goals for the Bride making herself ready. May ministry bow to the Message, person, and direct discipleship of Jesus, as the Commission and Kingdom prescribe. May ministry yield to the opportunity of decreasing so that others may increase in likeness to the Way and Life of Jesus Christ.

16. Jabez H. November 17th, 2011 3:07 pm :

    in the first line I had typed, ‘as greater than ministry’.

17. Jabez H. November 19th, 2011 2:24 am :

    Andrew,
    I answered your questions. Jesus sent out the 70, disciples included, once without carrying provisions, once with provisions. During that phase, as sent, they taught, declared the King and Kingdom, and practiced the gifts bestowed. They began to go through the cities of Judea and Israel (a task which Jesus claims will be unfinished when He Returns).

    He also instructed them prior to the Ascention to wait for the Promise. He instructed them after ascending to His Father and offering His offering in heaven before the throne: for forty days, first as visible frying fish on a shore. They were equipped by beholding the Messiah those years, and by instruction on the Kingdom of God, and the prayer fulfillment of walking with the Father. He mentioned the ones chosen for a particular task and called them by name. Paul too he called by name. Have you heard that voice name anyone?

    What can be learned from the failures of the Charismatic movement’s legacy of the last century, and what can be learned from its successes? I directed you above to what I hold as wisdom from above on the question just asked. On the last one answered for you, how do you see the Bride making herself ready for the Return? What holds back ministry from moving to decrease so that others may increase for His sake?

18. Andrew Yeoman November 19th, 2011 3:27 pm :

    Jabez, I appreciate your concern to get all on the glory of God and HIs Son Jesus. I hope and believe you have sense the same with my writings. And it is there that the heart of my apostolic appeal lies. Not in the glorification of men to places of lording authority or ecclesiastical pre-eminence, but in ‘sent’ function from that glorious Throne, and its resultant power, authority and message of the Son.

    I appreciate and agree somewhat with many abuses or acts of ignorance in past days, but then there have been such of the prophetic office, evangelistic office, so on and so forth for generations, since Paul’s churches in fact. That however does not hinder the Lord in advancing His church, with wise master builders who having experience the risen Christ by the Spirit, build according to the pattern – the Son and His throne.

    To see such servant ministry is wonderful in the Lord’s eyes, and should be rightfully related to by the Body of Christ, in as much as they should also to prophets. Then maturity according to Eph 4 will come, and Jesus revealed as head of His Body. Until then, we will be bound by our ideologies and insecurities because of past hurts, many of which I have witnessed and heard of. But my ultimate trust is the in the Lord of the Church, who is still building, and still covenanted to her. He will continue to use wise master builders to do such, and then return.

    My appeal rests in that, as I know yours does.

    Finally, I also believe that many ‘movements’ may have started in the Spirit and ended up with mixture, which si not pleasing to God, but we too must be careful because pride can enter with or without ‘apostolic’ name tagging. My concern is that those genuine apostles in the mission field of the nations, who labour day and night, with suffering yet for God’s glory, are recognised and received as such. To do so, is to receive a reward for doing so, said Jesus.

19. Jabez H. November 19th, 2011 7:02 pm :

    Andrew,

    We have to recognize that the whole context of authority in the wider world has changed since the Tenach and Brit Hadasha were written. These have been consequential as to how people interact, the assumptions of transactions so related, and how authority, being and bearing, and servant posturing operate. We simply cannot ignore that Paul wrote in a season of Kings and lords, petty and empires wide, and of open worship of idols, without the values of personal and academic freedom within such empires and petty regions, and without everyman democracy (except for those of certain councils). We have to then involve and engage what were the appointments once made in the church in reference of the NT instruction: to the prospective people and engaged people of God for every generation.

    As for apostolic ‘appeal’, it requires further correlation with the population of prospects and engaged people in the times in which we live. It requires the measure of corespect which has been hard wrought over many centuries to work toward a reasonable empowerment of everyman, in addition to structuring government and accountability many ways. Representative government of by and for the people has been the greatest change to the assumptions Paul and the apostles address about placement of the body of Christ in sociopolitical contexts. Contextually much has changed toward mercy, justice, and processes to achieve these over the years of structural governmental change. Slavery has been abolished, for example. Divine right is hardly left on the earth as a force. Conquest of one people group by another as to imperial quest assumptions being appointed by God are now viewed as just the opposite indicator of the establishment of self reliance and self governance. Much has changed among the Nations, and much is the same.

    The lost, disenfranchized, poor, and lowly are people we know from scripture in the heart and mind of God and His appointed Christ. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and, at the same time the Way of approach to people both as prospects and committed souls dedicated to Christ. Not only is idolatry a means to disrespect the values of God seated in Christ, not only is lording over others a way to disrespect the establishments of God now seated in Christ, regarding oneself as superior to anyone in heart mitigates against the attitude of God in Christ toward those weak in faith, weak in self motivation, and weak in engagement of seeking and finding truth and grace.

    The question remains, what uplifts Jesus from the preoccupations and cares of this earth? What then is the strategy of the church to draw men unto Him (our charge), not we ourselves. At this juncture do we need another reformation, or simply to prefer another brother or sister over oneself? Would this primarily involve being ‘sent’ or being grounded? Being ordained, or becoming the servant of more among one’s supposed Pastoral assumptions. Would this Romans 12-15 preoccupation, of Paul’s own full stature outlook, then be about that “apostolic”, or that seeking what is lost’s finding and drawing in? When will the apostolic leave the whole group to go after, retrieve, and bring in the lost sheep who is not in a present construct or context of past imperial times and understandings?

    Build by a pattern of the Son and His throne? Or build by a pattern of the son coming from heaven to earth, accepting the beloved task as set as always seeking the lost, often carrying that one or this one on one’s shoulders back to the place of safe inclusion and protection, as a common identification with others in His fold. Our concern is not to recognize and see the apostles of our times, but to recognize and offer the heart of God in Christ to his people–whether they present as prospects, as co-laborers, or as those weak in faith struggling to know the acceptance of the shepherd. Recognition and receipt by humanity of those who labor is in vain, unless the Lord Himself does the work and purposes His purpose.

    The fact remains, in nonimperial times, existence itself tempers truth by grace and grace by truth, not by a vision of ‘the apostolic’. As Jesus told Martha when in Mary, Martha, and Lazarus Bethany home, ‘one thing is needful.’

20. Jabez H. November 19th, 2011 8:03 pm :

    And, Andrew,

    The past personal word shared with you was not about writing on the apostolic as being of special significance for an on time ministry or word to this present Generation, but to write on the Kingdom of God, in Christ for such a pursuit.

21. Andrew Yeoman November 20th, 2011 3:16 am :

    Jabez,

    Many of your concerns are pastoral, and I agree wholeheartedly. Any ministry gift that is not pastorally applied is ‘as a sounding gong’.

    Times have changed to an extent… but God has not. Neither essentially has man. (Democracy is subjective not Kingdom – as much as tyranny. God is not ‘westernised’.) Are you suggesting that apostolic witness was created for an imperialistic age? Or was it for the Kingdom age?

    I suggest, and Jesus in fact suggests it was for the latter on numerous occasions in the Gospels.

    Therefore, to proclaim the mystery of the KIngdom must require the Spirit, the given word, humility and authority, and a going…. that is apostolic.

22. Jabez H. November 20th, 2011 5:30 am :

    Andrew,

    I am suggesting that any ministry has challenges according to signs of the times, attributes of culture and society, and that even language is so challenged. Relationships, communication, and reflective and respectful dialogue come into focus as not being merely one way pursuits or challenges for supposed ministers (where the pulpit is not necessarily front and center to the process of administration of interactions for the Word of God). Because all ministry is in a real sense a New Covenant priesthood–and because sacred ground in this regard has been yielded to psyhological and sociological supposed leadership–anyone called to ministry must become aware of the interpersonal challenges involved and personally understand these in their whole manner of approach to prospective and engaged believers.

    Anyone called to the ministry must develop at least a rudimentary knowledge and understanding of the ground gained by these challenging other priests, where it filled a valid need, find out the why and wherefore, and thus not become a target for future “studies” of how relationships become dysfunctional, of how petty loyalties can lead to abusive situations, and how not only the rights of all human beings have changed over time, but too so have the responsibilities of the administration of priestly challenges to the ministry. Because of the disappointing history of the Charismatic movement, and the books which have exposed these, believing that human beings in ministry are not subject to the same foilbles, weaknesses, and glaring errors of all engaging in other leadership vacuums of political and social arenas is naitivity at best, and blind sided vanity at worst.

    It does not matter that over the age such ministry has been active, it matters that the present day ministry of Jesus Christ not be blindsided, analysed as to its own presenting errors as an embarrasment, and
    not operate on wrongly informed sociology and psychology–factors not discovered of Mars Hill, the First Church, or new Gentile believers in the season which the New Testament was written. There has been
    sacred ground taken regarding how prospects and engaged believers learn, what they expect as basic assumption of personal pursuit and value, and as to equality being substituted in approach as to past bases for a needful repentance. Not only is ministry challenged afresh, it is challenged to have greater self knowledge and ongoing accountability at a personal level.

23. Andrew Yeoman November 21st, 2011 5:21 am :

    Jabez,

    agreed that the ministry must engage in its times and the people thereof, and in such a way that engages the saints and indeed the world. However, as needful as these things are, they do not take precedence over revelation. And by that I mean that which God has been restoring as truth the saints. i.e. Priesthood of believers, salvation, pentecostal emphasis, the ministry of leaders, the ministry of the saints, the Kingdom of God – the list goes on.

    For the KIngdom of God to come to earth both in preparation for the KIng and at the second advent of the King, Kingdom truth must be restored layer by layer. That, is the worlds need ultimately. Whether the genuine apostolic ministry, prophetic ministry or the mature function of the Body, the world must see it because it reflects the Lord Himself and is HIs answer to the problem of sin and darkness. Whether the world receives it – that’s another debate.But the world must witness it and the Church must become it.

24. Andrew Yeoman November 21st, 2011 5:23 am :

    Oh and to clarify – those ministries of the Body must bare witness of resurrection truth of the Gospel, not themselves or their teaching emphasis (which is needful among the Church but not through the Church)

25. Jabez H. November 21st, 2011 11:59 am :

    The Kingdom is among us, in us, and before us. Has been, is, will be. The King made it so. He linked the Kingdom to the charge of faithfulness to the Commission. He affirmed the Divine Plan. He affirmed by the Revelation given Paul the outline of His Gospel. It gives testimony of Him and His in relationship to Him. His People must not think of themselves as more highly than Him. There are three parables regarding preparation for the Return juxtaposed around the Olivet Discourse, would love to see your development of what is revealed there. The Bride is not an anointed ‘ministry man’, it is the body of Christ on earth preparing for the Return. It is incomplete without what is happening among the Land of the People of the Book in these times. It is incomplete without what is creating elders among those receiving the word worldwide. It is incomplete without understanding the need for coming daily to the Father Jesus taught of after much was accomplished.

    His instruction makes His disciples, not of another Way.

26. james Omweno February 4th, 2012 5:30 am :

    Grace ,mercy and peace from God the father and Christ Jesus our lord be
    with you
    I am by the grace of God
    His servant and worker from Kenya , me and my wife who is really
    assisting me and supporting me in all ways while outing mission for
    Jesus are working for the Lord and looking after the flock that the Lord
    has given to us.
    I ought always to thank God for you brethrens for the wonderful work you
    are
    doing for the Lord.
    I am highly encouraged and blessed for I have got the privilege to
    know, see, learn, and read the precious work you are doing for the Lord,
    I hereby request you to affiliate with us as we work together,
    Remain blessed as i wait to hear from you as you are able

    Yours in the Lord,
    Pastor James Omweno

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