In response to an Exodus International conference happening in the Chicago area on July 14th, the Gay Liberation Network will hold a protest (see the poster for the protest here) outside the event, declaring:
Exodus International is the nation’s foremost organization claiming to use Christianity to turn LGBT people into “ex-gays.” And while they say they “love” us, their fake attempts to change gays into straights is rooted in their hatred of gay people. They oppose all civil rights for LGBT people – equal employment, housing and access to public accomodations [sic], and one of their board members even traveled to Uganda recently to endorse a vicious law which makes gay sex punishable by life imprisonment. Every major, relevant professional association has denounced Exodus’s efforts as potentially very damaging to the very people Exodus claims to “help.”
The protest’s facebook event page can be found here.
President of Exodus International, Alan Chambers, welcomed news of the protest saying:
“Ironically, there are many at this event who at one time would have been outside protesting it, but have exchanged the hurt and anger of the past for a relationship with Jesus Christ and with caring individuals in the Christian church.
“What we, as the global Christian church, must recognize is that on the other side of a picket line, are often hurting people in need of God’s unconditional love,” said Chambers. “While our views on these issues may differ, the bold love of Christ must prevail over opposing policies, differing views and even our own pride.”
Now I ask, does this sound like someone that has a “hatred of gay people?”
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“Now I ask, does this sound like someone that has a “hatred of gay people?””
But when you’re responsible for sayings on your website like “Homosexuality may lead to physical death, but it will surely lead to relational, emotional, and spiritual ruin.”
and
“devastation pervades every relationship in which the homosexual man, woman, or child engages.”
It tends to sound like hatred.
Patrick,
Thanks for sharing your opinion. What’s ironic about you sharing the first quote is that it is part of an answer given by Mike Goeke (who has a powerful testimony of a faithful wife sticking with him through him straying into homosexuality for an extended period of time) to the question “Are ministries like Exodus hateful?”. Below is the full text of what he said:
Now you may disagree with his viewpoint regarding the harm homosexuality causes, but I don’t think any reasonable reading of his article in its entirety would lead someone to believe that Mike and Exodus hate gay people!
Now regarding your second quote, I find it interesting that you quote the entire sentence, but leave out the first word. Here is the paragraph in question:
Clearly the “the” is there for a reason, and in context, her words mean something quite different from what your limited quotation puts forth.
What would drive you to leave out one little “the” from a sentence that is otherwise quoted in its entirety? Now really Patrick, are you just looking for ammunition against Exodus, or are you openly and honestly looking at what they’re saying?
(Hey, could you delete that last post for me please, I think I fixed it : )
Marcus French: “Now you may disagree with his viewpoint regarding the harm homosexuality causes”
Re:
Mike Goeke: “As with any lifestyle that is intentionally focused on sin or that strays beyond God’s design, a lifestyle of homosexuality will lead to ruin. Homosexuality may lead to physical death, but it will surely lead to relational, emotional, and spiritual ruin.”
Marcus,
I can’t disagree with it because he never explains it. How does same-sex attraction and same-sex relationships “surely lead to relational, emotional, and spiritual ruin”?
It’s the assertion, without qualification, that comes across as hateful. Because it implies that I, and all of his other readers, are not worthy of knowing how he came to that conclusion.
Saying that the Bible says that sin leads to ruin doesn’t explain anything either unless it explains HOW that sin leads to ruin.
The sins of theft, dishonesty, violence, etc., need little explanation as to HOW they would lead to “relational, emotional, and spiritual ruin,” because they harm other people directly. How is a homosexual relationship, or even homosexual sex, directly harmful to another, and therefore sinful?
As to your other point,
Patrick Fitzgerald: “devastation pervades every relationship in which the homosexual man, woman, or child engages.”
Marcus French: “Clearly the “the” is there for a reason, and in context, her words mean something quite different from what your limited quotation puts forth.”
The “the” referred to the previous sentence in regard to “deviation from heterosexuality to homosexuality is devastating.”
Other than a series of assertions, the “devastation” part was never qualified. Thus, the “the” in reference to the devastation part was never justified to begin with.
“Now really Patrick, are you just looking for ammunition against Exodus, or are you openly and honestly looking at what they’re saying?”
The issue isn’t with what they’re saying, it’s about what they’re not saying.
Patrick,
When a doctor tells someone that unless he changes his diet and begins to exercise, his health will be at risk, is that hate or love?
Why then is it that anything spoken negatively about homosexual practice — especially when it is based on the Bible and on one’s own experience — is considered hate, not love? Are you genuinely trying to understand what Mike Goeke is saying and the spirit is which he is saying it? I think not.
Michael,
When a doctor tells you that your human sexuality is as malleable as diet and exercise, do you continue to see that doctor?
Patrick,
Would you be kind enough to answer my question? Thanks! I’m sure you fully understood the point, aside from your follow-up question.
Since you did ask, however, let’s take your argument further. When the doctor tells someone with gangrene in their feet that both legs must be amputated, is that love or hate? The severity of the diagnosis is not the issue — as I’m sure you understand. It is the motivation of the doctor that we’re discussing here, and when the doctor tells someone something very difficult — maybe the overweight person has a the so-called obesity gene and has struggled with weight gain all of his or her life — the doctor’s counsel cannot be dismissed as hateful just because it is unpopular or difficult. To the contrary, only a bad doctor would tell someone what they want to hear — and that is neither medical integrity or love.
As for our human sexuality, the issue is one of controlling what we do with oursexuality, and that is certainly as malleable as diet and exercise, since no one is forced to have sex or to yield to their physical desires.
That being said, I return to my basic point: It is impossible to read Mike Goeke’s words with an open and unbiased mind and to label his words as hateful. He said enough, and what he said was motivated by love, and every ex-gay I know anywhere in the world would echo Mike’s words in terms of God’s ways as being best.
As a parent, I see many parallels with the relationship between God and myself and my child and myself. God tells me no and not to do something because it is wrong and bad. Why? Because it will harm me, enable Him to give me His best, and put a separation between us. I tell my child she cannot have something or do something and she thinks I am being mean and hateful. The bottom line here is that Patrick is not liking being told no that he can’t do or have something, so he thinks that is mean and hateful. He wants God to explain why God is saying no to what he wants. I would say to Patrick that if he truly desires to have God’s best and be in right relationship with God, then he should ask God to explain why God is saying no to what he wants. If Patrick still desires first and foremost to have God’s best and be in right relationship, then he should ask God to direct his paths and to help him overcome. God will not allow anything that He disapproves of that through seeking and obeying Him, we cannot overcome. God loves us and desires His children. It all comes down to what you truly desire, God or self. I know it’s not easy, I’ve been there. It is worth the tears and pain. It is impossible to do on your own but with God all things are possible.
Dr. Brown and Marcus French,
I think there is a bit of disconnect between how you’re reading Patrick’s definition of “hate,” and how he’s expressing his own view.
Patrick doesn’t see Exodus International as the Westboro Church, marching with “God Hates Fags” signs next to funerals.
However, what he, and many others see in organizations like Exodus is a very control-focused group seeking to take their own possibly imaginary ideology and force it upon the rest of the country.
Let me give you an illustration. This is not an argument by analogy, but something to make it a bit more clear.
There are a lot of peaceful Vegan groups that set up stands outside grocery stores and tell people that drinking milk is unethical, unsafe, and harmful for all involved, cows, dairy drinkers, and non-dairy drinkers. They’ll quote some studies talking about how milk has pus in it, was never meant for human consumption, and causes internal organ problems.
They’ll say you’re not evil for drinking milk just misinformed.
They’ll say you don’t have any idea what you’re putting in your body to lead to its ruin.
They’ll also say if you knew what actually went on in dairy farms, you would stop drinking milk because you’re a good person at heart, and they love you anyway.
It’s all well and good until they start trying to take away your right to drink milk, because they know what’s best for you. You can laugh at it now, because it’s so implausible but if there was a real threat to your dietary rights, I think you’d chuckle a little more nervously.
Armed with very questionable research, no one wants to give ideological fundamentalists the power to decide what’s good for other people.
What Exodus is doing is also taking very questionable scientific/sociological research and embarking on a quest to make life very difficult for homosexuals who don’t believe they can change or even want to change.
The Ex-Gay phenomenon is rare enough to be mythological in nature. If you look up both sides of the story on “conversion therapy” you’ll see that it hasn’t worked very well. Do a wikipedia search for the baseline and then check the sources for the real research.
The problem with Exodus is once you create the myth that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not something biologically born into you, you make it much easier to take away the rights of homosexuals. Exodus, and perhaps even Dr. Brown, seek to make the rift between anti-black and anti-gay so large that gays can’t even claim any civil rights whatsoever.
Is it hate?
I don’t know if it’s the right word, since Exodus isn’t trying to lynch gay people.
Would it be “hate” to work to ban Hare Krishna temples because you know for a fact they are on their way to spiritual ruin without Christ? You tell me.
“Love the sinner, hate the sin,” sounds all good, until you realize that it applies to everything Christians don’t like. Thieves and adulterers aren’t bad people, right? They’re just caught up in sin. What you’re doing is lumping homosexuality with crimes that really do hurt society, even if you say you love the spiritual criminal.
What you’ve done is taken a book of writings from thousands of years ago and used it to justify telling other people how they should live their lives, then using that same book to justify why they’re not born that way. After all, God wouldn’t create people gay if that abominable, right?
What you call “Love” here is just brutal non-violent control.
–Dan
I’d also like to add that you protecting homosexuals from “spiritual, emotional and physical devastation,” that their lifestyle brings is talking to them like their drug addicts or prostitutes.
Maybe that’s how you see them?
People who lost their good way and now engage in painful self-destructive behavior?
While I wouldn’t call that “hate” either, you’re going to look pretty mercenary to emotionally healthy gays (believe me, they exist, and are a ton more spiritually, mentally, and physically healthy when they’re not stigmatized in an area with religious and social propaganda)
–Dan
Dan,
I’ve actually interacted extensively with Patrick in the past and understand his points and his methods quite well. He has also written more than one article attacking me and my statements, so I think there’s actually more of a “connect” — and strong disagreement — between us than you realize.
As for your asssessment of the alleged spiritual and emotional and physical health of gays “when they’re not stigmatized in an area with religious and social propaganda,” you must be completely unaware of the studies that indicate that in the most “tolerant,” gay-affirming counties and cities and countries, incidences of emotional and physical problems are far higher among homosexual and bisexual men than among heterosexual men — and that’s because God’s design and plan is being violated. (What a shame that you call God’s best plan for the human race “religious and social propaganda”!)
As for the alleged spiritual health of practicing homosexuals, I would dare say I have friends and colleagues who spent many more years among many more homosexuals than you or I have in both of our lifetimes combined, and what I consistently hear from them is the spiritual denial that “gay Christians” must live in (not to mention the spiritual denial and conflict that these friends and colleagues lived in when they claimed to be “gay Christians”).
And what I have consistently found in my personal interaction with practicing homosexual, bisexual, and transgender folks who claim to be committed Christians is an extreme defensiveness that reveals a real insecurity before God. (In fact, I have been shocked when attending some presentations by local gay clergy when, at the end of almost two hours of talking, they basically said, “Now, I can’t be dogmatic on this, but it’s the best I’ve come up with, and I encourage you to study it out on your own and come to your own conclusions.”) And if you claim that this is the result of them being stigmatized, I can tell you as a Jewish believer in Jesus that it is the security and depth and beauty of my relationship with God — my very best Friend! — that is an impregnable wall against the stigmatization I have faced for the last 37 years because of my faith.
I can safely say that if you too had experienced this intimacy with Him, many of your questions and objections would vanish.
Dr. Brown,
Thank you so much for your careful and thoughtful review of my comments. With your busy schedule, it is a warm compliment for you to take the time to respond.
I noticed a couple things about your response. While honest, your observations are flawed. For one thing, European countries have so many different elements in culture, religion, diet, and law from America that it is a forced comparison on the outset. That being said, when researching a subject, we’re dealt with the hand we have. I am still curious to see a link to the studies mentioned, as the research I’ve seen presented by fundamentalists (present company excluded) are usually not peer-reviewed and shoddily done.
As an example, I heard a claim from many preachers about homosexuals having a shortened life expectancy. The study was touted from church to church so I had to find the source. Turned out it was just a study of obituaries in a Gay magazine. That’s the best they had.
I would agree with you that to be Christian and Homosexual at once presents a huge identity and spiritual problem.
I went to a New Thought church in my area, and was surprised to see so many homosexual couples. I later figured it was because it was one of the few religious organizations that doesn’t have a text telling homosexuals they live in abomination. The gays I met there seemed at peace, though I didn’t spend much time with them.
The gays I know on a more personal level who live in San Diego are doing fine, as well.
However, it is true that to be Christian and Gay at once is a tough contradiction. When your faith is not your true belief, but merely your suppression of doubt, you’re creating painful health, emotional, and spiritual imbalances
However, if this is the case, maybe the problem isn’t homosexuality. Maybe it’s Christianity!
The cognitive, emotional, and spiritual dissonances come not from being gay, but from reading your required death sentence in Leviticus, or Paul’s renunciation of you as a true believer. That’s why if you’re not free to read a holy text and say “That last paragraph is just nonsense,” you’re going to create internal problems with yourself.
This is actually something a lot of Christians have to deal with, as the Bible paints a rather unpleasant picture of God. Deepak Chopra made an interesting point that Bible believers rationalize their God as “good” just like abused children do for their own fathers. When the one you depend on for life and protection is mean to you, it’s safer to think you’re the flawed one rather than Him, whether he’s your father or God. The child, or beaten wife, for that matter, will say “I was bad and deserved it. He loves me and provides. ” By any external standard, the Biblical God is not a good guy. When I presented this to a street missionary, he actually agreed with me that if it turned out the Bible was completely false, this would be good news because no one would go to hell forever. The missionary girl with him looked at me like I was the Devil and just pulled him to move on.
When you’re looking through the lens of a “Christianity is True” monocular, then of course it’s a shame someone would deny God’s plan. After all, you know what God’s plan is. You’ve experienced him in your life, seen some prophecies come true (which were vague to others but crystal clear to you), and have lived by Christ for 37 years.
When you say, “I can safely say that if you too had experienced this intimacy with Him, many of your questions and objections would vanish” I have to chuckle a little bit.
Had I said the same thing to you about my relationship with God, would you consider that slightly arrogant? “I know God and you don’t.”
I can tell you if you felt the peace with God I do now, you would drop your quest against homosexual activism and join the side for liberal love and acceptance. I wake up each morning saying “Thank you” to God, meditate for 20 minutes in love, and do the same thing at night. I am in more bliss than most anyone I know, including most Christians. My love for my fellow man grows deeper each day, as well as my union with Spirit.
But you’re not in my head, and I’m not in yours. “My spirituality is sweeter than yours,” becomes harder and harder to ascertain, when the two people talking are happy and loving, but not angry or resentful at the rest of the world.
Is it just lines in your New Testament that tells you I can’t have what you have without being Christian?
Maybe Jesus told you himself? I know a metaphysician who talks to Jesus too.
Either way, you quite honestly have no idea what someone else can experience without Christian belief.
–Dan
Thank you, Dan.
Dan,
I’ve interacted with peoples of many faiths for the last 37 years, so I definitely know what someone else can experience without Christian belief. I would argue that it is you who has been deprived of that wonderful, intimate knowledge of God.
As for links to studies that back the statements about homosexuality and its negative effects, I’ll provide some relevant links for you ASAP, although I’m not entirely convinced that you’re open to evidence these days as much as the seeing things through the lens of your own experience. I do hope that you’ll prove my pessimism wrong.
Dr. Brown,
Thank you. I will look at those links with an open mind.
Keep in mind we both have our own lenses.
I can guarantee you if that I believe that if there is evidence homosexuality can be changed safely, without the harmful fear-based or pain-based aversion therapy I’ve read about, then that would be very good news, especially if homosexuals turned out to be unwell. Who would I be to deny someone their right to change? I would hope, conversely, if you found your conclusion to not have enough evidence, you would recant your previous statements as well. Am I correct?
Additionally, if there is convincing enough evidence for orthodox Christianity, I would embrace it readily. I have no incentive to deny God now that I’ve gotten to know him. Your Answering Objections books are amazing, but only work in the closed universe of Biblical Judaism.
Your apologetic argument, from my understanding is:
1. Due to the passing of important non-negotiable historical deadlines, the Old Testament cannot be true without the New Testament being the valid continuation.
2. The Old Testament is True.
3. Therefore the New Testament is True.
In your four books, as well as your Lee Strobel interview, you defend that conclusion flawlessly. No rabbi or counter-missionary can make a case worthy of defeating it. However, is someone denies Premise 2, then the argument crumbles. You even say in your book “If this prophecy was not fulfilled by Jesus, it was fulfilled by no one, so we might as well follow Buddha, or no one at all for that matter.” My thoughts exactly.
While there isn’t much contradictory historical evidence to disprove the Old Testament, the amount we can ascertain about that era from other sources is extremely small. And yes, this means that all ancient history of that period is extremely suspect.
The traditional apologetic argument I’ve seen is
1. Due to cosmological evidence, a creating deity must exist. For philosophical reasons, there can be only one deity. (Gets a little fuzzy here)
2. Due to the historical accuracy of the Gospels, Jesus must have performed amazing miracles and risen from the dead.
3. There’s no way Jesus could have done any of that unless he is the creating deity.
4. Jesus is that creating deity, and Christianity is true.
I know that’s a way oversimplified version, but that’s the gist of every apologetics book I’ve read, (and I’ve read quite a few). The authors evidence of Jesus’ miracles and then backwards justifying the Old Testament, since Jesus must know his stuff if he can walk on water and raise himself from the dead.
This is all assuming the cosmological and historical Jesus arguments are true. How much I believe of those, is another matter.
The big dealbreaker is that Premise 3 is a sweeping convenience statement, so that’s why I’m not convinced. Without even venturing into unpardonable sin territory, I’m sure you can think of several alternative explanations of how a man could have powers, without being the creating deity of the entire universe.
But this probably not the place for this type of discussion, I assume, so I’ll leave it at that.
Believe me, I am open minded about the issue. I haven’t said anything illogical, nor in deliberate ignorance, to my knowledge. The main difference between us is I have far fewer rules attached to my beliefs. I don’t have a “flowchart” where if it was proven that the apostle John wrote his gospel, this must mean that the other gospels are real or if he even spoke correctly. Evidence for one document cannot prove other documents, for this one example.
Anyway, I look forward to your links.
–Dan
Dan,
I take you at your word and am glad to hear you are open to the evidence. I would encourage you to take seriously the many testimonies from ex-gays, people who have suffered much for their faith and have been reviled by their former community, and they have nothing to gain by testiyfing to God’s transforming grace, other than truth itself. As to my being willing to change my views if that evidence pointed that way re: the question of ex-gays, of course I would, but please bear in mind that I’ve immersed myself in the subject for the last five+ years, reading and listening to and viewing all the anti-ex-gay stories I could get my hands on, so I hardly expect that something new would come along that would alter my views.
To get you started on recent studies re: health risks to homosexuals and bisexuals, check the references supplied here (and note that this comes from MA, where same-sex “marriage” is legal):
http://americansfortruth.com/news/homosexuality-is-more-unhealthy-than-heterosexuality-massachusetts-study.html