| Original Apostles
23 ‘Are they servants of Christ? (I speak as if insane) I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty- nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
26 I have been in frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren.
27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure
28 Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure upon me of concern for all the churches.
29 Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?
30 If I have to boast I will boast of what pertains to my weakness.’
2 Corinthians 11:23-30 NASB. |
The New Apostles
23 ‘Are they Apostles of Christ? (I speak the truth) I more so; in far more luxuries, in far more resorts, never beaten in golf, often in danger from overeating.
24 Fifty times I received massages at the Country Club where I play.
25 Three times I suffered heartburn, once I suffered sunstroke, three times I had to fly coach, a night and a day I have spent without my bodyguards.
26 I have been on frequent cruises, in dangers from jetlag, dangers from the Stock Market, dangers in my private jet, dangers from the IRS, dangers in my limo, dangers on my Harley, dangers on my yacht, dangers from rival televangelists.
27 I have been in spas and hot-tubs, through many six star nights, in buffets and steakhouses, often without my Perrier, or without ice in my Coke.
28 Apart from all these carnal pleasures, there is the daily pressure of counting my seed faith contributions.
29 Who is rich without me being rich? Who is led to give to my ministry without my intense joy?
30 If I have to boast I’ll gladly boast about myself and my mailing list.
New Apostolic Version |
The Apostle Paul also said this: “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice” Phil. 1:15-18
I’ve listened very intently to some of these megachurch evangelists, and I’m still waiting to even hear the message of Christ!
If your article wasn’t so true, it would be funny.
So, David, Thanks for what you share. In qualifying what is not the lifestyle of one following the New and Living Way can you also add affirmations of what can be realized positively when following Christ. For example, one can take a wife, have a family, assume that a basic living standard in the placement, nation, season, and time where they live (you know, while having kids in school, for example) is part of the “preservation of the world”.
The other side of the pathetic Apostate Apostolic Version too needs to be at least raised where Christ sent the original Apostles into the world to teach them to “obey” all that He instructed. There is indeed a blessed life in Christ, including basic provision, where Paul was not always in the status of persecution. If one were only being continually persecuted one would not have time to take a shower, put on clothing, and meet the world with conviction. E. Stanley Jones put it this way, one has to live by a divine “Yes”, and cannot live by a divine no. Even after Paul mentions offering ourselves as living sacrifices in Romans 12, he goes on to state much from the Sermon on the Mount on how to live a life of divine love, in Christ Jesus.
Perhaps it is a matter of focus, finding how to live by obeying what Christ taught???
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Christ “being preached” is even debatable. And just because that little caveat is there in that verse from Paul, that is no reason whatsoever to excuse the falsehood, (not that Tamara is but it is sorta implied) which Paul never does. He still confronts it head on. We should never downplay something that is inherently false just because there’s charismatic catch phrases thrown around and alleged healings taking place…which oddly enough never seem to hold up to scrutiny. The Pharisees denied a lot about Jesus and His apostles (John 11:43-48, 12:17-19; Acts 4:16)but never denied a single miracle. But I digress…
What is “preaching Christ”? Talking about Him? Reading a few bible verses? Telling someone that God loves them? Being nice? Praying for healing? Not a bad start…
Is there more? What did Christ preach? Keep in mind that the Spirit of Christ preached through the patriarchs and prophets to the Gentile world who had no law revealed to them and still took them to task for sin.
To preach Christ isn’t to restrict yourself just to the nicey nicey parts about Him or to confine oneself to the 4 gospels or the NT. He is the center piece of the whole Word and had a lot to say that was nice, harsh, encouraging and even scary.
These new apostles have no stomach for anything to do with Christ that makes you uncomfortable or confrontational. They’d rather milk the simple for money, toke the Ghost and act like drunk imbeciles rather than be sober minded and preach a clear word.
We’re commanded several times to be clear in our minds and spirits and never once to be morons or greedy.
I have major doubts as to what extent Christ is preached by these Charlatans. It’s not usually a biblical Jesus being set forth but rather a sugar daddy god.
I wouldn’t rejoice in any ministry that uses Christian vocabulary with a pagan dictionary for the words they employ.
I came across Rev. 2:2 (scripture referenced at beginning of this article) in my reading this a.m. Most significant is the fact that even though the church at ephesus tested and found some apostles to be liars (as well as other things listed), that fact couldn’t redeem them from their lovelessness. They were big on doctrine and works, but had lost their devotion to Jesus. Then I signed on here and saw the post from Mark H. I guess you are trying to help me understand something that you think I don’t understand. (why I don’t much like these post things b/c too much is assumed or misunderstood or both.)
My point was that too much of this kind of stuff is a wrong focus. Paul also warned about false teachers in Phillipians 3:2 “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers …” “Dogs” are the people without love who are continually discovering what is wrong with others! Focusing on fault finding robs us of vision and steals our joy. Because I hear and see so much of this kind of junk among SOME Christians, that is what came to mind when I read this column. When I focus on what’s wrong with others, I’m aligning myself w/ darkness. The flesh loves to do this. I want to take up my cross and crucify my flesh.
But the other thing (regarding the article) is that Paul was a true apostle, not because he endured severe persecution, but because he was commissioned by the Lord. He encountered Him and knew the Lord. He understood our GLORIOUS GOD, fully grasped the fear of the Lord, and it made him a fanatical lover and one who carried his heart in complete humility. It was because he knew God that made him an apostle and because he knew God he was able to endure that persecution. (In the way that Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set b4 Him!! – Heb.) His energy was totally given to attaining the character of Christ, not with “perfection” of doctrine the way the Ephesians were in Rev. 2. And Paul’s ministry was demonstrated in love, purity, nurturing, tenderness, exhortation, encouragement, and a fathering spirit (true indicators of an apostle – not JUST the fact that he was beaten). So, when I, as a blood-bought daughter of Jesus, spend lots of time looking at what’s wrong with everyone, I am not glorifying God or crucifying my flesh. Those who do reveal their lack of brokenness, are living by the “letter of the law,” but are empty of love (just like the Ephesus church in Rev. 2). They are usually right in their observations, but have the wrong attitude; however, to them, their “rightness” justifies any wrong attitude they have. If I want to, I can discern others’ sins easily, but love covers a multitude of sins – and when I preach Jesus, Holy Spirit does the work that’s needed in people’s hearts, not me. Lastly, I am reminded of 2 Cor. 5:16 – God judges by the heart, not the outward appearance. Some Christans spend too much time ripping up other Christians. I am not saying that there aren’t false apostles, etc., but what are we focusing on?! I want to spend my time wisely, being transformed by His Glory.
Oh Wow, I just read the other article about preaching Christ – so good! thanks! :-D
“Dogs” are the people without love who are continually discovering what is wrong with others”.
What do you base that on? The word “dogs” is usually an O.T. reference to homosexual shrine prostitutes or any other kind of sexually immoral person. It has a long standing historical meaning to it at the time Paul is writing, who would have understood the cultural understanding of that word as a scholarly Jew. You can’t assign an arbitrary definition to a word like that.
” When I focus on what’s wrong with others, I’m aligning myself w/ darkness. ”
Focus=wrong.
Right Seeing+Exposing=biblical.
It does require a certain amount of observation, however, and that can’t ultimately end up in reaching no conclusion about what’s wrong or ignoring it or even going so far as to only focus on what little good is in it. Perhaps you haven’t listened to much of David Ravenhill’s preaching but he is anything but a loveless man who’s myopically focused on the sins of the church.
Re: Rev. 2, notice that Jesus complimented them on right discernment before knocking them for losing the center piece of Christianity. He didn’t say that righteous judgment and biblical discernment was wrong, he said losing love was wrong. That’s why Paul was jealous for the church to “speak the truth in love“. People know when they’re being wounded by a friend versus when they are simply being nit picked. Anyone familiar with David Ravenhill knows he is not of that ilk.
And you have to admit that posting that verse and bold printing the last portion of it right after his take on things makes it look like you’re making a public correction or supplying what is lacking on his part (not that he’s infallible). You’re entitled to the opinion, that’s totally fine. But it seems that you think that he and we should be happy about some aspect of these goofy ministries (that shall remain nameless) to the extent that we ignore the problems and don’t talk about them and get them fixed. Sometimes issues in the church are so profane, so ugly, so Godless that it requires a directness and frankness that comes off as abrasive (Gal. 2). Again, if a false Christ is proclaimed then true conversion cannot happen under the umbrella of false revelation of a Messiah who doesn’t exist. That is a problem. The christ preached by these TV personalities is bogus and it is a problem that needs to be addressed. Souls are at stake and the kingdom of God suffers for ever single false demonstration of it.
It’s interesting to note that almost every letter Paul wrote was in response to problems in different churches. It’s okay to see them and address them and even be a little bit frank and blunt about it.
Be careful about reading into something that isn’t there. I know that stuff came to mind when you read this article, but it looks like it wasn’t a fair judgment that you reached….which seems to be the kind of thing you disagree with Christians doing. If bad judging is wrong, then bad judging what you assume to be bad judging is bad judging.
Going to one extreme is never the answer to another extreme.
All the lovey lovey stuff is true and great and MUST accompany the disciplining of bad, sinful Christian behavior so I have no dispute there.
Game on.
Duh, that wasn’t Paul that wrote that, it was John. Nevertheless, he was quoting Jesus who was a little more scholarly than Paul.
But the historical/grammatical/linguistic principle is the same regarding the use of the word “dog”. There’s no way whatsoever, from scripture, to prove that this word was describing people who had no love and were fault finders. Not that people like that are any good in the kingdom…
My understaning of who were “dogs”, as it varies from the OT and the NT, is that in the OT anyone outside of the Nation of Israel were considered “dogs” (any and all Gentiles) and were referrred to as such by our Lord in his discourse with the Gentile woman who succeeded in gaining restoration for her daughter.
However, anyone outside of the Kingdom of Christ have now become the “dogs”.
The specific word Jesus used to describe the Syro-Phonecian (sp?) woman was not the word used for dirty dogs but a domesticated pet. He didn’t insult her, He just let her know her place on the totem pole: “I came for My own first.”
I guess the author will not be interacting here on other stimulated ideas. This too is a kind of tyranny of inclusion/exclusion. Such a position can become a law unto itself, unless, at the very least, personally invested and involved. If the Apostate New Apostle has one summary characteristic it is insulation and separation from others, but some would misread that and be confused because of their lack of a comparative state of being, and misunderstand such as representing, somehow, a separation unto God. This has been the case in the last century among some of the so-called Charismatic movement. Plain truth, plain living, mutual accountability, ability to be there among the people along with the use of gifts of his calling, marked the Messiah’s ministry.
Thanks Mark,
I just looked up the difference.
I don’t see where it changes the understanding of the verses though.