How an Orthodox Rabbi Marginalized Himself
Filed under Culture, News on November 4th, 2010 by Michael L. BrownEditor’s Note: Published in the Washington Post’s ‘On Faith’ section at the following link: What the Rabbi Doesn’t Get
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is not only “America’s most famous rabbi” and my frequent opponent in public debates. He is also a dear personal friend, which is why I was more than a little mystified to see his editorial in the Washington Post, published one day after our November 1 debate.
The title of that debate, as proposed by Shmuley but not to my liking, was, “Is Homosexuality America’s Greatest Moral Crisis?” In my opening comments, I answered this question in the negative, stating that America’s greatest moral crisis was certainly not homosexuality but rather the lack of the knowledge and consciousness of God, because of which every area of society suffered.
I also explained that what two gay men did in private was between them and God and was certainly not our greatest moral crisis, and I stated emphatically that rampant heterosexual divorce had done more to destroy marriage and family than all the gay activists combined. I then addressed the church’s sins against the LGBT community, for which I have publicly apologized a number of times. (Those reading Shmuley’s report on the debate would not have a clue that I made any of these statements.)
It was only after this considerable introduction that I explained that my issue was with gay activism, which was something I did not go looking for but rather something that came knocking at my door and at the door of my community. I argued that it posed a serious threat to our moral foundations and our religious freedoms, which I documented in terms of the queering of our educational system, the attack on the male-female gender binary, the implications of queer theology, the pervasive influence of the media in promoting gay-slanted values, and specific examples of the loss of religious freedoms as a result of gay activism.
My appeal to Shmuley was simple: Let’s stand together and address the sins of the predominant, heterosexual community, from pornography to materialism, as well as the negative effects of gay activism. Shockingly, rather than focus on these substantive issues, Shmuley pressed the question of whether I believed homosexual practice was on a par with incest or pedophilia. How in the world did this become the subject of the debate? (For the record, I stated that sin is sin, and that my own past sins were as bad as – or worse – than homosexuality.)
As to the alleged evangelical obsession with homosexuality (an accusation raised throughout the debate by Shmuley), I asked the almost entirely evangelical audience to respond to four questions: How many of them heard a sermon in the last year on the importance of marriage? Virtually every hand went up. The importance of devoting time and energy to the raising of their children? Same response. The dangers of sexual sin (and/or pornography)? The same response again. A sermon about gay activism? Not a single hand!
The truth be told, there is no “gay obsession” in evangelical churches, and, where pastors and leaders are concerned about the effects of gay activism, they are hesitant to speak up, lest they be branded intolerant bigots, homophobes, Hitlers, or jihadists, not to mention accused of inciting violence against gays.
Rabbi Shmuley wrote, “I argued passionately that evangelicals had become obsessed with homosexuality,” yet despite his best efforts to persuade and despite his considerable rhetorical skills, the audience was unaffected. “I could not move them,” he recounted. “Try as I might, my audience would not budge.”
Why was he so ineffective? It was simply because evangelicals have not become obsessed with homosexuality and, more broadly, because he was missing the whole point, which was not whether consensual homosexual acts were better or worse than consensual, adult incestuous acts (both are clearly proscribed in the Bible), nor was it whether we should ignore issues such as divorce, promiscuity, or materialism. Rather, the issue was this: Gay activism presents a serious moral threat to America in that it seeks to undermine the traditional family (which is already tottering through heterosexual failings), and by fighting for special LGBT rights and freedoms, the rights and freedoms of others are threatened.
Those who were present at the debate are well aware that my esteemed colleague completely skirted the issue of gay activism and refused to answer numerous direct and telling questions. Instead, almost by sleight of hand, he manufactured a misleading distraction from the real debate (“You believe that homosexuals are just like pedophiles!”) and turned a deaf ear to my appeal to join with the evangelical community in standing for comprehensive morality, upholding biblical values regardless of whether they are deemed politically correct. Worse still, he argued that homosexual acts were not moral transgressions and that a committed gay couple could have a fine, Jewish home, thereby marginalizing himself from both the evangelical community and the Orthodox Jewish world.
To watch the debate, go here: http://askdrbrown.org/about-dr-brown/itinerary/shmuley-vs-brown-debate-is-homosexual-activism-americas-greatest-moral-crisis.
Tags: debate, Dr. Michael Brown, Evangelical Christianity, gay activism, homosexual activism, homosexuality obsession, Is Homosexuality America's Greatest moral crisis?, judaism, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, religious freedom
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Dr. Brown, why would you ask a bird of a different feather to soar with you? Light has no business with darkness, and i think you lost sight for the sake of a peer/friendship and well- intentioned moral agenda? Does not the Bible make it very clear how G-d feels about homosexuality, and no less, that in these days, we are to expect these behaviours. He does not sound as if he is in his right mind, that of the creators reflection and will.
I was just thinking exactly what Rebecca wrote…as I reading your article. Better yet…why spend effort debating with a man who is clearly not wanting to face truth…the Rabbi needs a sign from G-d not intellectualism.
I have read articles by Rabbi Boteach in online newspapers in Israel. As I have understood his words he does not seem to be fond of Christians. Especially Messianic Christians. I watched the debate, Dr. Brown is a gifted man of God who spoke the truth. The sin of homosexuality goes opposite of an eternal design of God. Marriage is ordained by God. There is a great wedding/feast spoken of in Revelation. Between a Bride and Groom. Through Messiah Yeshua Israel will be reconciled with God. These eternal relationships have been designed by God. We cannot begin to fathom the joys that are to come.
this message is for Rebecca and Sarah. Dr. Brown is fully aware of who he is debating with. The issues and subject are minor compared to the overall dialogue it engenders amongst unbelievers particularly Jewish unbelievers. Please do not forget that Rabbi Shmuley has many followers as well, and they are paying close attention to what Dr. Brown is saying. Pray that these unbelievers will be drawn to their Messiah by the Holy Spirit. It is quite commonplace for jewish people to use debates and reason to share important points. Paul of Tarsus was gifted in this strategy.
Dr. Brown, as I read your debate, it feels similar to the Jews I debate with on JFJ. Confronting singular issues, instead of the entire context that tears at the fabric of Morality. Homosexuality is a major issue that affects every Christian, and Jew in the world. I was watching a documentary on the titanic. A large ship that was constructed in the early 1900,s, and steamed full speed ahead through an ocean filled with icebergs thinking the ship was invincible, the captain and crew took no regard to the dangers. I learned two thing’s . One I already knew, but one fact I didn’t know. The one thing I did know was the defect in the rivets which held the ship together. Though the ship was hardened steel plates, the many small issues became it’s demise, and when the pressure of sideswiping the iceberg came to rest on each individual rivet , they failed, allowing a tear in the strong steel.Also they compromised on the flood chambers , lowering the rear walls, thinking only a major head on collision could happen that would be enough to sink a ship of that magnitude.My thought was stirred when I heard of another flaw; It was the expansion joints, that allowed the ship to flex to keep it from breaking apart. They are now considered one of the major faults to why so many passengers drowned in the icy waters. Had the ship not broken apart, engineers say that probably most passengers would have been rescued, because the ship would have floated for hours longer. Isn’t this ship the way most of the world live our existence?Even in our faith in Christ, thinking grace will rescue us if we fall. Surely it will, but when we compromise our morality, aren’t we merely adding flaws to the body as a whole, like weakened rivets, and removing the safety net, grace, like the expansion joint, when we compromise our morality ?You are so true! It is not just one flaw , but many that cause the ship to sink. In Yeshua’s explanation of the end of age, He said men would be eating, drinking, and marrying,like today, much like the days of Noah. So when is that time?, If true , the day of His coming and wrath will be when our own vessel is prepared; His Ark within us , and seaworthy to stand against the raging sea.toda raba, and blessings in our Meshiach Yeshua.
Dear Dr. Michael Brown,
First of all I am Blessed to have the chance to see your teachings and Debates, May God Bless you. If I am not wrong, correct me please, the greatest frustration of Jesus in the new testament was and still seems when we the flock miss or lack a great Spiritual leader. I have observed the difference in the last debate, when you are caring about the mass going in the wrong way, your opponent stressed on you cannot win the debate in the eyes of a Media like Washington post, not God, so that do not run for the office, higher position and you can not be the most influential Evangelical leader like the ones mentioned in the debate that doesn’t say anything about gay activism, if it is true. But he is the most influential Rabbi in the US.
God said to Samuel God sees the heart. Jesus challenged or refused to answer for the Pharisee because he knows their ill-intended heart where it is heading to….may be to fail him and get power in the eyes of the Washington post before his right time.
All I can say is that please challenge the hearts of your opponent before the Debate apart from the title, what is their idea about God Fearing, Love, Kindness, Compassion, Faith and Hope and what their real experience is in this matter or perhaps debate them on this matter.
God Bless You!
Dr. Brown.
This is the first Discussion that I have had the pleasure of reading. I also look forward to reading the rest of the comments listed in the Extra Category field.
Similar to the problems people have with Homosexuality, I find that the dangers of Muslims regarding their invasive Stealth program is also not understood or fully grasped by many countries. What is it that people are so blind that they fail to see these dangers encroaching their liberties? They appear to be on a straight road to moral destruction and Hell, yet enjoying the trip.
I would have preferred to see the Rabbi asked a question that was not presented. Assuming he has children, what would his response have been if he were asked “Would you allow your own children be taught in elementary school that gay sex is a safe and healthy alternative?” This is exactly what gay activists are demanding be done.
When people object to homosexuality in general, it is not always a religious based rejection. AIDS statistics prove to sane people that there is a reality based reason to object to gay activism lessons presented to children in schools. These statistics exist while the arguments are ongoing and after they are said and done. At the end of every day, there are still countless people falling victim to AIDS. True believers of God as well as most non-believers do not purposely lead their children astray. I would like to know why the Rabbi does.
It is clear from Torah – the Creators Instruction manual to humanity – that homosexual acts are moral transgressions. It is also clear that practising homosexuality is the antithesis of being a Jew. Saying that it is okay for a man to live in a homosexual relation with another man is okay is the antithesis of being an Orthodox Rabbi.
Shmuley is evading the question. Of course it is wrong according to Torah with a homosexual relation even if the males in that relation have never been a love with a woman. It makes me sad that a person claiming to represent Judaism says something else.
Anyone subtracting and removing directives from Torah is according to Devarim [“Deuteronomy”] 13:1-6 a false prophet.
Michael Brown claimed that certain transgressions of Torah are wrong and correctly he did that; but then when Shmuley challenged him and said “Jesus didn’t marry” and “why wasn’t he married”; Browns answer implied that there was an exception to Torah. I want to comment this inconsistency of his.
The historical first century Mashiakh [“Messiah”] was a Ribi [a title similar to ‘Rabbi’) named Yehoshua.
His authentic teachings were written down by his apprentice student Matityahu and were later redacted into the “gospel of Matthew”. The followers of Ribi Yehoshua were called the Netzarim.
The historical Mashiakh was called a Ribi, which implies that he was a Torah-observant Pharisee; and this implies that he had a wife [note 2]. That Ribi Yehoshua was a Torah-observant Pharisee the Christian redactors extensively redacted away (but it still can be deduced from the redacted accounts using premises such as Tan’’kh, and Ben Gurion prof. Elisha Qimrons research on the Dead Sea Scrolls 4QMMT). Thus the historical Mashiakh did teach Torah and there is no contradiction between his teachings and between the Torah. The Netzarim – the followers of Ribi Yehoshua – never accepted the “NT”, because its teachings contradict Torah. Since Michael Brown accepts the “NT”, there are inconsistencies in his speech.
Relating to the Creator exactly in the same way Ribi Yehoshua did – i.e. observing the Creators directives in the Torah – leads oneself into an intimate relationship with the Creator, which is very meaningful!
1. Read more in Netzarims website (the only legitimate Netzarim-group) (link found in the right menu of the link in note 2); History Museum; Mashiakh-section (top menu)
2. Proof in this link on my blog of some contradicts between Torah and the “gospel”: <a href=”http://bloganders.blogspot.com/2010/07/matt-517-20-what-did-ribi-yehoshua.html“>Link</a>
Great article- good way of exposing the fact that homosexuals are not the biggest issue on the plate but are in fact causing the religious freedoms of others to be impeded in the name of ”tolerance” and “freedom”.
Dr. Brown,
While reading your summary, I got the impression that you are hurt that your friend would resort to these “tactics”. I just wanted to say that I’m sad with you! I will pray that your friendship can be mended/maintained, despite Rabbi Shmuley’s using this platform to twist what he must have known your thoughts were. You get to choose to respond in a Christ-like manner, and love him anyway.
Methinks Shmuley knows he’s arguing from a compromised position, with one foot in the bible, the other in gay activisms’ propaganda, and with a rather tall fence in between. However much the world doesn’t like Dr Browns position, even a gay activist can recognise it’s at least logical, straight-forward and self-consistent (though “hateful”, they’d say). The rabbi’s sugar-free Judaism lite is none of these – an awkward melding of arbitrarily explaining away unpopular sections Torah while still trying to live by it as a whole.
Hence the rather impassioned objurgations and personal anecdotes by Shmuley in lieu of actual scriptural arguments. What more could we expect?
I think I hear NAMBLA demanding their rights now though…after all, their members were born that way. Any objections Shmuley?
SC, actually, Shmuley and I have been in regular communication the last few days, and I can honestly say that our friendship and commitment to one another is stronger than ever.
Dr. B., If friendship with the world is opposition to Christ, what are the advantages of such an alliance? You have already clarified from whom the topic “debated” originated, now it seems clouded by the clout of preposture, as quickly placed in New York media. Did Jesus continue with the tempter after 40 days, or go on to something else for good and just cause???
Jabez,
I am absolutely NOT a friend of the world, but I AM a friend of people in the world, following the example of Jesus, and in keeping with my love for my neighbor.
@Anders Branderud
Jesus is married. Actually, He is betrothed. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. See also Revelation 21:2, confirmed by the John the Baptist in the Gospel of John 3:28-9.
Also, Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Isaiah 54: 4-6, Isaiah 62:4, and most importantly: Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
One point I see in this discussion is ; I read; Why should we think light has anything to do with darkness? It is not our judgement of God’s time ,who G-d will have favor upon and who He will not!Whether you are a Rabbi, Christian, or homosexual, Each man carries his own cross, or should I say his own unique temptations, but only one carries grace. I always said; G-d honors my prayers because He knows, I know how rotten I really am! To accept sin as a lifestyle is wrong, and that is a very dangerous position. To be tempted of sin, and fall,as we all have done is another, but yet we strive to resist it,and knowing the evil ,are two different issues. Even Paul said; I cannot take the thorn from my side. The Jews believe in the same God as Christians; The G-d of Israel. They do not understand Jesus is their Messiah!It is an uncanny experience trying to reason with Judaic believers, and give such convincing testimony of Christs fulfillment of their scriptures, but yet most cannot percieve or understand what your even trying to say. I believe it is a blindness G-d set upon them. The Jews are a unique people, though we differ in belief of the Meshiach, we still hold a common heart for the G-d of Israel, and many are my friends.The Holy Spirit within me has never been short for an answer to any question they pose! and many times I am challenged, but by never doubting Christs existence, and power, by faith He brings a deeper understanding of the truth, and many times I find His truth unvailed to my own eyes from searching the answer to their doubts .I believe many Jews will not see, or believe until Christ stands before them , and they see His nail scarred hands, as Thomas the diciple of Christ did, and then they will believe! Jeremiah 31;37 “ If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD Pilate asked Christ; What is truth? Without knowing Jesus is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, neither will anyone understand , or find the righteousness of truth within them,Most people percieve truth to be good within itself, but truth can also be the realization that men do not choose righteousness, but instead evil.
It is the creation of free will in man,for man to accept what truth he will choose!and what truth he will obey!I believe G-d has only grace for those who choose to walk with Him!even if we try , and fail, He will not!, for it is God who sees Yeshua within us, that makes us worthy,and not ourself!
More marriage references:
Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Hosea 2:19-20 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
I enjoyed watching this debate live (had a very late night that night!) from the UK. I believe that Rabbi Shmuley is a good and compassionate man and as a result of seeing him in other debates with Dr Brown, I have bought one of his books and enjoyed it very much. Ive also become very much attached to Mr Michael Brown, learnt a lot from him, respect his stand for the truth, watched many of his videos and think hes very brave. I think both men made good points in this debate, even though they didnt agree. It was well worth watching and made me think more deeply about the issues involved. I am still thinking about them! No two men could have debated the issues better. Very well done Dr Brown and Rev. Shmuley and thank you for giving up your time to do this!
My heart cannot explain G-d in a few statements,or His Grace for men through Christ Jesus, and I find one explanation leads to another. I can’t explain how one act of sin can embody all sin, or how sin is sin , a collective embodiment of evil, like defective rivets of a ship, as I explained in my first post. There are definitely degrees of sin, yet some theologians say there are not, yet the Bible says unintentional sin is not the same as deliberate sin. Perhaps that is the difference? I also said G-d through Yeshua/Jesus only gives grace to those that accept Him, yet my whole existence contradicts that statement. I died,falling 30 feet on my head ,not believing in any god,and before the fall, living in sin, and taking pleasure in the temporary feelings, and pleasures of this world ,and found myself in the pit of hell, in torment,demons telling me there was no hope to ever leave or find relief from their torment, yet God heard my cries , though I didn’t cry put to Him , and Jesus breathed life into me and made me believe!,[ there was no other God, or did I ever study any religion!] but yet I felt His Love! He chose me even though I never chose Him! By what he gave to me in my own life, I know His grace extends beyond any category or box we can place the definition of Him in. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. G-d embodies all of life, and death, good and evil, Hayah[I am] is the Creator of everything we see and experience. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for man to choose. G-d created satan to tempt man. How can G-d make any logical sense to mans common sense?, and how can we see Him as only good? At the years of time past of my conversion to Christ, I was in great pain, both physically and mentally, and I wished I would just be dead, and gone to stop the pain, but as I read the scriptures of Jesus, it brought cooling waters to quench the fire within my soul, yet throughout my life , I still fell short of walking a perfect walk, and many times sin got the best of me,[though I never had the problem of homosexuality], but still,even in my demise, I could never lose this peace Yehoshua[Jesus] had given me,despite my shortcomings beyond all understanding, my happiness was like the sun, rising and setting into the night, but I always knew the Son would rise again , and my life would go on. I look back today and realize ,through my injuries, and mental agony , still today I am suffering pain, and countless surgeries, financial setbacks, from those injuries,and my failed life, but I would have never known Christ if I hadn’t understood I alone could not be master of my life!, or sat down to write to Israel all these years, and learned so any mysteries of God! and everyday always finding a new meaning, knowing that the definition of wisdom is learning!,I know G-d’s ultimate plan for us is Good!and through our trials, He creates within us free will. Psalms 82;6. There is hope for all men, and I commend Dr. Brown for reaching out to men of all variances. and his commission with the Jews, from which their overflowing grace from God is given to the gentiles , to becomes heirs of the promise of Abraham. What is Love created within men if it is not Free? and what is freedom compromised? but bondage!It is in all these things I give thanks to Jesus, The lover of my soul!, and to love others, the way He loved me!
To Chai Trumbo
I appreciate your comments that bring attention to marriage between a bride and groom in the Eternal. A love story. The Bride of Israel from Ezekiel 16 is redeemed. In John 8, Jesus encounters the harlot, I love this story, a mystery, I find it a never ending study. Ephesians 5:33. Mystery found in the Bible, I believe, will be understood in eternity.
Sorry , Ephesians 5:32
Hello Dr. Brown,
First, I just want to thank you for your opening statement in this debate. Although rabbi Boteach had forced his title, you were able to direct the focus to the core issue of the homosexual agenda (gay activism). Unfortunately, in the court of public opinion (i.e. initially in the Wash. Post) the following day Shmuley was able to have his opinion posted to which you had stated they had refused to print your response at that time.
After watching the debate twice, I can’t help but think that rabbi Boteach had previously intended (and prepared) the statement for the Wash. Post, and that his focus throughout the debate was to shape that W. Post article (note: I have not seen his orig. post, and this is mere speculation on my part – I realize he wants to sell his books).
I do think that r. Shmuley had some good points, though I don’t care to remark about them just now. What I would rather do is hope that in the event of any future debates you might catch him in his masterful redirection of point, to wit, how he was able to set up an unchallenged definition of the motivation between male homosexual “lovers”, that being (my wording) that they knew they were not heterosexual because they had “never” had any sexual feelings or desire towards women. That was the point he was able to carry forward with his arguments based upon “man was not meant to dwell alone”, and how he was able to get away from your point regarding how loneliness should not be a reason to fall into this homosexual sin between consenting males any more than loneliness can be a reason for an adult male only having his loneliness assuaged by a sexual encounter with a younger boy. His “vitriolic” response kept his misdirection in play.
I think that r. Boteach’s insistence for his central definition that “homosexual men forever had not had any desire for women was their root reason proving that by birth they were, essentially, not heterosexual” set the stage for the rest of his argument.
However, I would posit, is that true?
It may be true of some, but I doubt very seriously that it could be said of “all” homosexuals, else how could any ever turn from that sin (obviously, with the help of the force not seen by the world (including r. Boteach), but you and I know as the Ruach Ha Kodesh, Holy Spirit)?
Rather, I think very likely that a great many people turn to homosexuality after being led into that lifestyle through the influence of written materials such as some of the books you mentioned but also of others, including some initial unsolicited encounters by homosexuals and then the “joining the club” arguments based upon “feelings” or suppositions previously entertained or suggested (how many former Roman Catholic altar boys, after unsolicited and forced sexual encounters with homosexual predator priests, later join the homosexual lifestyle or become sexual predators themselves?). To presume that “all” male homosexuals willingly took on that life-choice based upon their lack of sexual desire for women is absolutely absurd.
Besides, people do not always tell the truth; should it necessarily be assumed that homosexual men are the only truth tellers in our society and their definition of homosexual desire, or the one that r. Boteach believes is absolute truth?
Hopefully, I’ve gotten my point across regarding r. Boteach’s able redirection.
Thank you again for your opening salvo and for the debate as a whole.
Sincerely,
R. Pill
I always thought of the “itching ears” pastors as Christian, but apparently they can be Jewish as well. It is unclear what is to be gained by trying to be politically correct from the pulpit. I don’t get it! Currying favor in the court of public opinion at the expense of Holy Writ is an exercise in futility and goes against the warnings of scripture. Boteach needs our prayers as do all who are trapped in homosexuality, adultery, fornication and all other types of sexual immorality! I think Dr. Brown speaks for many in the evangelical community who are truly compassionate toward homosexuals, but who are at the same time compelled to speak out against the activism that threatens family values and sound scriptural doctrine!
Dr. B., I am contemplating your #15. Love is a given (neighbors, enemies, brethren, persecutors, the religiously rigid or insistent, etc.); the question was on friendship, the temptation of engagement with what can confuse the matter of credentials of care, identity, and calling allied with standard bearing balancing love, and what is gained?
Sorry to be so poignant, FYI I am not given to resentment, malice, or the like. I seem to be vigilant for the balance of truth and grace. I have a conservative Jewish friend who is an atheist, whom I do not debate, but simply love. The stance of his ever increasing belief in evolution as to existence origin and a love of “science” has been to mock those who would address such by reason, an appeal to deity, or persuasion. Yet, we connect at a heart level over family matters, being fathers, Israel, and care and concerns on this or that. He is a bit of an enigma, for, he is very religious, and zealous for Israel as well.
This may be a matter of what Bonhoeffer referred to as situational ethics, stimulating the conscience to weighty choices, or ongoing Mars Hill engagements, I simply do not know. The Spirit can lead many ways, and I am always attempting honing my discernment, considered vesting, and investment as the time is short. Simply by the measure of what the Lord eventually stated of his adversaries I remain concerned, but teachable.
“I stated emphatically that rampant heterosexual divorce had done more to destroy marriage and family than all the gay activists combined.”
Dr. Brown,
I actually wanted to ask you about this anyway, but I’m glad you brought it up.
Since you were supportive of Proposition 8, and other attempts to keep homosexual marriage illegal, would you be in favor of a law to ban divorce?
When you think about it, it makes just as much sense to “legislate morality” (As Frank Turek would put it), in regards to divorce, as it would be to do so for homosexuality. Jesus had a lot more to say about divorce than homosexuality. In fact, he put it on par with adultery if it wasn’t over a cheating affair.
Curious what the rest of you think on this one as well.
–Dan
Dan,
I would definitely be in favor of getting rid of no-fault divorce and turning back the clock to the days when a marriage could not be so easily dissolved, since there are cases where divorce is justified or, at the least, allowable.
Dr. Brown,
Thanks for the honest, straight up answer.
A lot of people consider the Prop 8 movement inconsistent and hypocritical, considering how many conservatives have taken advantage of our legal divorce opportunities.
Good to see it’s consistent on your ministry’s end.
–Dan
Dr Brown,
I wanted to let you know that as a BRSM graduate, I really appreciate being continually able to read your material! You are truly filled with the Spirit as you speak.
I would also like to say I appreciate your intentional attempt to keep friendship with Rabi Shmuely Boteach.
I read his stuff often in Jerusalem Post.
I especially appreciate his post many years ago about the “synagogue coming home.” It brought up many prophetic points that the church could hear, I was shocked it came from an unbeliever, but the Jews were given the oracles of God at the same time as being blinded.
Anyways, I appreciate your approach with him.
Shmuley: ”You believe that homosexuals are just like pedophiles!”
Me: “let’s define ‘just like’ ”
Shmuley: “you perfectly know. go ahead. do you think homosexuals are just like pedophiles?”
Me: “depends what do you mean by ‘just like’ ”
Shmuley: “as if it maybe understood in different ways”
Me: “sure it can, and that’s what you trying to do here. you’re bluring the distinction”
Shmuley: “namely.. ?”
Me: “they ARE like pedophiles IN VIRTUE OF DISSIMILARITY to normal and healthy male-female relationship”
Shmuley: “what?”
Me: “Shmuley, are Russian Rubles just like Francs?”
Shmuley: “I don’t know those fundamentalist, homophobic words”
Me: “are Russian money just like French money”
Shmuley: “how would I know, I am Jewish riabbi. Why would I care? I thought Russia and France are Canadian states”
Me: “never mind… Usually, if you go to grocery store in United States, you cannot pay with Rubles or Francs. so are Rubles just lie Francs?”
Shmuley: “to me any money are good. the more the better”
Me: “I hope homosexual activists hear that. you earn your bread today”
Shmuley: “whatever. you marginalized yourself”
Me: “why is that?”
Shmuley: “why- why? who cares. this is a fancy word. ”
Me: “Do you kow any other fancy words?”
Shmuley: “yes, benjamin-franklin-100″
Me: “were did you learn that ‘word’ ?”
Shmuley: “my gay friends promised a book with many pages with that word”
Me: “so, that’s why your face was red when you debated Dr. Brown? You felt some discomfort?”
Shmuley: “no. I was angy!!!”
Me: “why’s that?”
Shmuley: “they made me memorize the phrase”
Me: “which phrase”?
Shmuley: “You believe that homosexuals are just like pedophiles!”
…
…
that’s how the Shmuley sounded to me. coward, trying to prostrate before fat pockets of homosexual activists. God forbid they become dissatisfied. It’s going to be the end of the word just like marginalization !!! ;)
Rebecca, you said ” Does not the Bible make it very clear how G-d feels about homosexuality, and no less, that in these days, we are to expect these behaviours. He does not sound as if he is in his right mind”..
:D
this this is how he presents himself to sound like…
He talks more about societal status, preserving your image, making sure you’re not crossing a way with some rich gay lobyist… etc..etc.
..and nothing about conscience, honor, or anything like that.
In this debate I have not heard anything worthwile from him… sad