America: Israel’s Last Ally. Or Was.

Filed under Israel & The Jewish People, News on February 25th, 2011 by Guest Writer

By Shira Sorko-Ram | www.maozisrael.org | Originally published May 2010

“America has embarked on the European path of economic stagnation and declining influence. Since 1945, Europe has depended on America to defend it, while spending ever smaller percentages of its Gross National Product on defense. The huge budget deficits resulting from Obamacare will push America in the same direction.”

So wrote Jonathan Rosenblum, director of Jewish Media Resources and columnist for the Jerusalem Post. (2Apr10)

Rosenblum reiterates what most other conservative journalists write: “Every major government entitlement program has ended up costing many times more than initially projected, and the proponent’s cost projections on Obamacare do not meet even minimal levels of credibility.”

He adds, “World War II cost Britain its empire, and the huge budget deficits racked up by Obamacare will likely force America to abandon its role as global policeman.” This will leave nations like Iran to take the lead and push the surrounding Islamic nations into making a head-long rush to develop their own nukes.

The “retreat of the Great Satan will only whet the appetite of radical Islam.” One thing is certain: The UN will never protect Israel against the Islamists. And now it appears that America is turning its back on its only democratic ally in the Middle East.

0510 - Obama, Netanyahu, Abbas

Body language seems to be very strong with President Obama. Here he is obviously in command, ordering Prime Minister Netanyahu and Palestinian Authority Head Mahmoud Abbas to pose for a nice photo op.

OBAMA’S PLAN

Just what is Obama’s agenda for the future? What else does he want to accomplish during his first term in office? Of course, he would love to pass his Cap and Trade bill, but Rosenblum believes he can only commit suicide once (with Obamacare) and he does not think the president has enough political capital left to get another massively controversial bill through congress.

Therefore, says Rosenblum, he will turn to foreign policy – which, for the most part, is out of reach of congress. He has publicly stated that he will deliver a Palestinian state within two years. (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jonathan/rosenblum

Most Israelis have come to the conclusion that the Jewish state has no choice but to offer the several million Arabs in the West Bank their own state. Nevertheless, Israel is fearful of the way it appears Obama will make it happen.

From Israel’s perspective, Obama is not really interested in a peace treaty between Arabs and Israel. As Rosenblum notes, “No confidence-building measures are ever requested from the Palestinians. At every stage, new demands are placed on Israel to placate [the Palestinians] and convince them that the U.S. has the power to deliver a state on terms even they cannot refuse.” (Ibid.)

He has asked nothing of the Palestinians – such as recognizing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish nation or renouncing terrorism. He has not countered the demands of the Palestinians who plan to send millions of Muslim “refugees” to live in Israel proper and to take Jerusalem away from Israel and make it their Muslim capital.

HUMILIATING NETANYAHU

When Netanyahu visited the White House in late March, Obama demanded that he sign an agreement to stop all building in East Jerusalem’s Jewish areas and consent to 12 other demands. When Netanyahu stalled, according to many press reports, Obama stood up and said, “I’m going to have dinner with Michelle and the girls.” He added, “I’m around. Let me know if there’s anything new.”

“It was awful,” a U.S. congressman who spoke to the Prime Minister said. One Israeli newspaper called the meeting “a hazing in stages,” poisoned by such mistrust that the Israeli delegation eventually left rather than risk being eavesdropped on a White House telephone line. He left with no official statement from either side, an unheard of treatment of a close ally. (www.timesonline.co.uk, 26Mar10)

0510 - Haaretz Story

0510 - Haaretz Story This headline expresses the mood in Israel – the awareness of the indifference of the world to threats against Israel’s existence.

Ironically, the Israeli people, after decades of “negotiations,” are convinced that the Palestinians do not really want a Palestinian state – that is, a state living in peace beside Israel. They do not want that. They want one state and one state only – which would extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River – in other words, they want the land of Israel as part of their state. They say it this way: One state for both Arabs and Jews with each citizen having a vote.

To gain such a state, they would be ready to submit (at least temporarily) to being the first democratic Arab Muslim state in history because then their Muslim voters would, within a very short time, vote in a Muslim Palestinian prime minister and dominate the Knesset. And that would be the end of the Jewish state.

But that is not all. Israel is falling behind in military capabilities. “According to the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, every Israeli request for upgraded weapons systems has been denied, while the Arab states, most notably Egypt, have been provided with numerous advanced systems on par with Israel’s.” Most recently, bunker busters necessary for any attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities were denied. (Ibid.)

We must remember that Obama sat comfortably under Jeremiah Wright’s anti-Israel and anti-Semitic invective – including honoring Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam – for nearly 20 years. He is comfortable with Islamic principles and ambitions.

Israel’s only hope is God. As the nations turn increasingly antagonistic toward Israel, Christians and Messianic Jews who know how God feels about the land He promised to the Jewish people must pray for Israel and for their own nation. The promise is still true today. I will bless those that bless you and curse those who curse you.



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  1. “We must remember that Obama sat comfortably under Jeremiah Wright’s anti-Israel and anti-Semitic invective – including honoring Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam – for nearly 20 years. He is comfortable with Islamic principles and ambitions.”

    Knowing Obama’s background and the church he was affiliated with, I still cannot understand to this day why Jews in the United States ignored this reality and the majority voted for Obama, their enemy. It is sad.

  2. the world has said, the only reason israel is still alive is because of america.  the world looks at israel as americas little mascot, even though, israel has fought all her own battles (with the help of the Lord).  i believe GOD has to separate israel from america so He will show the world that it is He, and no one else, who is the Savior of israel.  america has been pressuring israel for a long time, now, to keep giving in and giving more land, but i believe obama wants to hand jerusalem over, for an idiological trophy.

  3. The Bible speaks of Abram in the following passage, not his grandson, Israel:

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    “The Lord had said to Abram,…I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” Gen. 12:1a, 2-3.
    Also, if the U.S. is turning against Israel lately, it’s only in the same sense that Lyndon Johnson turned against the government of Mississippi during the 1960′s.  No matter what you think of him, LBJ was NOT anti-Mississippi.

  4. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel),

    Are buried in the Patriarchs tomb in Hebron, Israel.  The promises to Abram were/are carried forth as being three, as two for his direct descendants, one for all those of an alike faith.  Recently the US was the only nation vetoing a UN security council move blatantly promoted to frustrate the self govenment of Israel and its governance of Jerusalem.  The US has continued to supply Israel to date.  

    Recent changes in the “restraint of evil”, mentioned as being the case restraining related chaos on the planet in both Biblical Testaments
            –9/11, of the last decade: the Twin Towers attack based on calculated foreign
                agents’ religious motivations and hijacked civilian passenger aircraft use
            –Calculated bombings of public areas in Israel, Iraq, Western Europe, India, Russia, 
                etc.
            –The targeting of law and order military vehicles in places of Western forces invited 
                activity through their continued presence in nations in the Middle East
            –The genocide of school children and families in Russia, the Sudan, North Africa and
                by other jihadist actions
            –Murderous attacks on Christian churches and communities worldwide
            –The training of so-called Palestinian children to hate and deploy explosive belts
                and arms against Israel
            –Islamic nations so-called clerics murderous advice given their followers
            –Iran’s defiance of world actions against its acquisition of nuclear ambitions, its
                President’s statements for the planned destruction of Israel, exporting of jihad
                revolution ideals to Gaza, South Lebanon, Parts of Pakestan, the so-called
                territories of Israel, Syria, and Turkey.   His recognition of an Islamic Messiah, Mahdi
            –Populist revolutions on streets of Tunisa, Egypt, Libya, etc. being encapsulated by
                Muslim brotherhood clerics rallies thereafter
            –For the first time in 24 years Iran sending warships throught he Suez Canal for
                “military training” with Syria 
            –The test firing of a submarine born missle of a foreign power near the coast of
                California
            –foiled plots and plans for setting off destructive explosives in the USA in various 
                cities
            –the first time lack of enforcement of Federal Law by an Executive Administration
                in Washington D.C.: regarding a Congressionally passed Marriage Act, defining
                Marriage in traditional terms
            –the assertion by the EU, the “big four”, the US State Department, the UN, and Russia 
                of Israel’s lack of rights as to its own choices about Jerusalem, Judiah, Samaria,
                boarders, settlements, etc.
            –Border intrusions by drug lord agents on the So. USA/Mexican borders
            –the forbidding of calling on Jesus Name by military chaplins in the USA armed 
                forces
            –the assertion by the present US Administration that so-called gay rights
                matters=civil rights issues

    There is not room here for the endless list, but I invite others to also note cunning movements against the godly restraint of evil in the present century.           
           

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    Jabez H. writes:
    “The promises to Abram were/are carried forth as being three, as two for his direct descendants, one for all those of an alike faith.”
    Does this mean that God extended the promise “I will bless those who bless Abram, etc” to others? Where does it say or imply that God will bless those who bless Isaac, and bless those who bless Jacob/Israel, and bless those of similar faith? I’m puzzled because I never saw such a Bible passage. But anyway, does this mean that since I have alike faith (I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years), that if anyone were to criticize me, that I would be justified in silencing my critic by quoting Gen. 12:1-3?
    Yes, I agree that evil should be restrained. Here are a few responses to Jabez’s list, which are numbered only for the sake of ease of reading.
    (1) The FBI charge sheet (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten) against Osama bin Laden reads:

    USAMA BIN LADEN
    Murder of U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Attack on a Federal Facility Resulting in Death
    REWARD: The Rewards For Justice Program, United States Department of State, is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction of Usama Bin Laden. An additional $2 million is being offered through a program developed and funded by the Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.

    Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
     

    (2) A son of Holocaust survivors offers an account of Operation Cast Lead, basing his speech in large part on IDF soldier testimonies and other pro-Zionist sources:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk
    (3) Here’s an excerpt from an interview of Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan on the Six Day War:
    “General Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and gave the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997, when it was published in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan’s daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.
    “In the interview, Tal interjected, “But they were sitting on the Golan Heights….”
    “Never mind that,” said Dayan. “I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started…. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn’t possible to do anything – (it was) in the demilitarized zone – and [we] would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until, in the end, the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force…. And that’s how it was.”
    “…. Then why did he give the order to invade? Essentially, it was because of pressure from the would-be settlers, who convinced Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister, to occupy the Heights and the fertile lands beyond. When asked if that was all there was to it, Dayan replied:
    “I can tell you with absolute confidence that (they) were not thinking about (security); they were thinking about the Heights’ land…. I saw them; I spoke with them. They didn’t even try to hide their greed for that land.”
     
    The above excerpt is from:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-akins.html
    (4) In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt’s personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: “[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no — it must — invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge…And above all — let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space.” Quoted in Livia Rokach, “Israel’s Sacred Terrorism.”
    (5) Here’s Naeim Giladi, a member of the Zionist Underground during the 1950’s, describing terrorist attacks against Jews in Iraq:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ref-giladi.html#bomb
    Excerpts below:
    “The terrible truth is that the grenades that killed and maimed Iraqi Jews [in Baghdad in 1950-1951] and damaged their property were thrown by Zionist Jews.
    “…… [CIA officer Wilbur Crane] Eveland doesn’t detail the evidence linking the Zionists to the attacks, but in my book [entitled Ben Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews] I do. In 1955, for example, I organized in Israel a panel of Jewish attorneys of Iraqi origin to handle claims of Iraqi Jews who still had property in Iraq. One well known attorney, who asked that I not give his name, confided in me that the laboratory tests in Iraq had confirmed that the anti-American leaflets found at the American Cultural Center bombing were typed on the same typewriter and duplicated on the same stenciling machine as the leaflets distributed by the Zionist movement just before the April 8th bombing.
    “Tests also showed that the type of explosive used in the Beit-Lawi attack matched traces of explosives found in the suitcase of an Iraqi Jew by the name of Yosef Basri. Basri, a lawyer, together with Shalom Salih, a shoemaker, would be put on trial for the attacks in December 1951 and executed the following month. Both men were members of Hashura, the military arm of the Zionist underground. Salih ultimately confessed that he, Basri and a third man, Yosef Habaza, carried out the attacks.”
    (6) And finally a brief excerpt from Prof. of Middle Eastern History Juan Cole who blogs at juancole.com (Cole is fluent in Arabic and Farsi).
    October. 1, 2009
    Top Things you Think You Know about Iran that are not True
    Belief: But didn’t President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threaten to ‘wipe Israel off the map?’

    Reality: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did quote Ayatollah Khomeini to the effect that “this Occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time” (in rezhim-e eshghalgar-i Qods bayad as safheh-e ruzgar mahv shavad). This was not a pledge to roll tanks and invade or to launch missiles, however. It is the expression of a hope that the regime will collapse, just as the Soviet Union did. It is not a threat to kill anyone at all.

     

     

     
     

  6. Jon,

    God says many times over in the Bible; “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”  Jesus said, “God is not the God of the dead, but, of the living.”  The Promise of Messiah passed from Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob (Israel), so, how is it you don’t understand what Jabez wrote?  They, and we, through the faith of Abraham, are decendents of the promise of Messiah.  There are promises given to Abraham and his direct decendents of what we call “the promised land”.  They weren’t given to anyone else.  Christians can’t claim the land mass given to the Nation of Israel.  Neither can the seed of Satan take possession of it, i.e., Islamic Jihadists.  God’s will will be done and we can stop second guessing what’s going on in our world today–we are seeing the Lord’s will playing out–”Be still and know that I am God….”

    Jon wrote:

    “Jabez H. writes:
    “The promises to Abram were/are carried forth as being three, as two for his direct descendants, one for all those of an alike faith.”
    Does this mean that God extended the promise “I will bless those who bless Abram, etc” to others? Where does it say or imply that God will bless those who bless Isaac, and bless those who bless Jacob/Israel, and bless those of similar faith? I’m puzzled because I never saw such a Bible passage. But anyway, does this mean that since I have alike faith (I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years), that if anyone were to criticize me, that I would be justified in silencing my critic by quoting Gen. 12:1-3?”

    The Word of God is very clear on this subject, so, if you’re still puzzled, I can better lay it out for you if you need me to.

    I’ve not read the rest of your post yet.  I was just dumbfounded by your first comment.

  7. Jon,  In posting what you have, likely believing it to be truth, you have missed the greater truth of Father God watching over his children.  God has made promises which are all yea and amen before him.  These work their way into hearts and minds, and prove the faithfulness of the promiskeeper.   

    I have read or seen or heard many accounts of the details of the reestablishment of the People of the Land of the Book into the Land of Promise.  Some oppositional to the concept, some oppositional to the people, some oppositional to the fact or reality of the regathering.  You might pick up a Psychology book and look up defense mechanisms.  Transference and projection deal with the narcissistic age of depravity we live in, where much is seen through our own clouded eyesight, our own stories, our own lack of understanding the heart of God himself.

    We live in a time of the doctrines of demons permeating the world, where, as it was in the days of Noah, people are going about life as though nothing is essentially wrong and all is relative.  This opens human experience to self centered depravity as an outlook on even the events God has saturated with his own promised interaction and outcome.  But, on earth, it will not be worked out without what can seem to be inaccuracies as to the depiction of His nature with His involvements.   Yes, read the scripture, even Romans 9-11, to understand the very enmeshed involvement God has with His chosen people.   Grace echos from heaven’s shore to the People we cannot ignore, as chosen for Promise.

  8. We all need to keep in mind that God is Lord over all the earth and that His will is going to be accomplished regardless of the schemes of men, be they good or evil.


    Eze 28:24
    “And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to prick or a thorn to hurt them among all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord God.

    Eze 28:25
    “Thus says the Lord God: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and manifest my holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell in their own land that I gave to my servant Jacob.

    Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.”

  9. Jon,  Another way of gaining perspective is to notice how we look into our rear view mirrors often, when driving.  If we see a police car we usually stiffen up our driving boundaries and responses until that one is out of site.  We may have no tickets otherwise, but something kicks in when being scrutinized.  

    Now imagine a totally different driver monitoring scenario.   Whenever we drive, wherever we go there is always a police car just out of view, in our “blindspot”, but with us always in view.  No matter where we look, or direct our driving intention, the police car is always there, ready to write up the least infraction.   Getting through a venture out to do errands a half day in such circumstances will undoubtedly result in an inevitable ticket from this or that throughtless, everyday, infraction.

    The history of the so-called Middle East conflict is rich with details.  Five wars which resulted in Israeli victories cannot be discounted regardless of any traffic infractions noted along the way.  Warfare is not a chess match in a smoke shop; it is vulnerable to many observable imperfections and nonacademic performances.

  10. And, Jon,    Could you offer a little more background on your own claimed Christianity.  At what age did you become a believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?  Where was your family residing at the time?   Have you lived in the Middle East, and, if so, how long did you live there?  Where do you live now?   Have you read the book “Our Hands are Stained With Blood”, by MIchael L. Brown?   Obviously you have an anti-Zionist outlook.   When, in the history you grant asking these prior questions, did this realization first become your own outlook?   Were you raised in a Christian community, or in a largely Islamic one?  Or, if not, what about your family of origin–where were they raised?    I ask these to determine how your editoral drift–of supplied quotes as to choice (inclusions and exclusions)–was formed: where, how, when, etc.   It helps grant insight into a nonBiblical faith position on the “truth” you have picked to quote.  As for me and my household, we hold an interest in service to the Lord of Scripture, and His values and determinations.  Why, if He has helped Zionism to reestablish a Jewish State after the exile of 130-135 CE?   Because I understand His true nature through Jesus Christ, and Christ commented on the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel in His Mount of Olives discourse.  I just can’t get around the heart of the founder of Christianity toward the Jewish Jerusalem he beheld (about to crucify Him), forgave on the Cross, and addressed as to futures in Daniel’s allusions in that discourse.  And, now seeing that “summer is near” how shall I respond?    

    “I will bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee”.  This is coming from the same throne on which Jesus shares occupancy.

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    Hi Jabez and Sheila,
    I believe you’re both sincere in your beliefs. Do either of you believe that there’s any danger in misusing names? We read in the Decalogue that we are forbidden to misuse God’s name. I trust that you’ll agree that it’s also forbidden to misuse other names or words, too. As for the name ‘Christian’, do you think that it deserves to be applied to Barack Obama? If you hesitate to do so, then I suppose you would definitely also oppose applying the name ‘God’ to the God of the Koran. You’re correct in distinguishing the Biblical God from the one in the Koran. They have different natures, don’t they? Of course, nor should we transpose the names of Satan and Jesus in the account of our Lord’s temptation in Luke 4. Satan is not God and God isn’t Satan. No argument there, right? However, this carefulness regarding names and words unfortunately deserts you in other contexts. There are two Israels in the Old Testament: (1) the genetic descendants of Abraham through his son Isaac, Jacob/Israel and his seed; and then (2) the remnant spoken of in Isaiah 10:22 in the following words: “Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return.” “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Rom. 9:6b). Of course, many citizens of modern Israel, both Jewish and Palestinian, believe in the Messiah, Yeshua. But others don’t. Your perspectives on the Middle East are impaired by misusing words and names.
     
    Was Elijah anti-Israel when he rebuked Ahab? No. Was Nathan anti-Israel when—during a war— he confronted Commander-in-chief David about Bathsheba and the abuse of power in having her husband killed? Even during a war against Israel’s evil enemies, the Ammonites, God not only didn’t let this sin slide, he was absolutely furious with David! See II Samuel 12. You see that the end doesn’t justify the means. In Exodus 32:27-29, was Moses anti-Israel when he delivered the word of the Lord to the idol-worshipping Israelites?
     
    “…’Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, ‘You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.’”
     
    God is holy and therefore doesn’t tolerate sin. He’s not a moral relativist. Although you’re both confident that you understand God’s nature, the God of the Bible even punished the Israelites for invading the high hill country (the Promised Land!) in a manner he had not commanded. Numbers 14:41-45 reads as follows:
    “But Moses said, ‘Why are you disobeying the Lord’s command? This will not succeed! Do not go up, because the Lord is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies, for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the Lord, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword.’ Nevertheless, in their presumption they went up toward the high hill country, though neither Moses nor the ark of the Lord’s covenant moved from the camp. Then the Amalekites and Canaanites who lived in that hill country came down and attacked them and beat them down all the way to Hormah.”
    In your presumption, do both of you approve of the founding of modern Israel in a manner God hadn’t commanded?
     
    I believe you’re both sincere believers in Yeshua, but you, along with many others, have roped off a part of your hearts—the political part—-and within this sacrosanct area you cling so tightly to moral relativism (eg, the end justifies the means; what’s normally unacceptable is acceptable in certain political situations, etc) that you ignore the substance of criticism and even question the salvation of the critic.
     
    When you look at the current stealing in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, you (both?) misapply God’s promises to genetic Israel, which were conditional on their keeping the covenant, and which led to their (anti-Semitic?) exile to pagan lands when they refused to listen to the (anti-Israel?) prophets God sent to them, you misunderstand God’s holy nature and hatred of sin, and then transfer those promises from the obedient remnant of Israel on whom they rested to a nation which you consider to be God’s children simply because they call themselves Israel.

    But the God who hates and punishes presumption (Num. 14:41ff), the God who punishes stiff-necked genetic descendants of Abraham who refuse to repent (note that I said ‘genetic’, not ‘spiritual’—– both of you are spiritual descendants of father Abraham), the God whose favorite human was probably David but who wouldn’t permit the latter to assassinate the evil murderer King Saul (please read I Samuel 24:6-7), that God with that kind of nature spoke these words through the prophet Micah:
    “Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At morning’s light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it. They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them. They defraud a man of his home, a fellowman of his inheritance.” Micah 2:1-2
    You’re suppressing the truth, Jabez. (Sheila says she hasn’t read most of my post). In practice, this means that you ignore some of God’s word, such as James 1:19-20 (instead of listening to Christians who are not of your clique—but see I Cor. 1:10-12 —-you first falsely accuse me of unbelief, relativism, projection, etc., then you yourself calmly proceed to relativize and project. Then there’s the issue of the third commandment. And you’ve so mishandled Gen. 12:1-3, that it will be difficult for you to explain these words from Exod. 32:29b: “for you were against your own sons and brothers, and [God] has blessed you this day.” So, my friend, in this passage God commends those Levites who killed 3,000 genetic Israelites and even blesses them!! Other verses you ignore— insofar as they apply to Middle East politics— include, among many others: Titus 3:10-11 (we are commanded to avoid divisive people, and isn’t Israel’s government divisive?), Isa. 29:20-21 (they quite often brand Arabs as ‘terrorists’ and others as ‘anti-Zionists,’ but God condemns “those who with a word make a man out to be guilty”), Deut. 27:19, Deut. 1:16-17, I Tim. 5:21, Lev. 24:22, Lam. 3:34-36, Zech. 7:9-12, etc, etc. When God commands you a number of times not to be partial, Jabez, your response is….to be partial to modern Israel. You’ve decided that the holy God is actually pretty tolerant of sin—in regard to politics— and you’ve decided that your brother in Christ (me) is worthy of deep suspicion because I’m not of your clique. But far more importantly, you’ve decided that all it takes for modern Israel to be deemed the remnant of Israel is for you to misinterpret Daniel’s prophecies and for some people to have announced on May 15th,1948, that they are named Israel. But, on the other hand, when Muslims name Allah God and when Obama calls himself a Christian, then—and I commend you for this—you are meticulous about the proper usage of words. But politics entices you into violating the third commandment. You also strengthen the hands of those whom God abhors: bloodthirsty and deceitful men (Psa. 5:6; II Kings 24:3-4). If you don’t believe that Cast Lead was abhorrent like that, then it’s because you won’t listen to the youtube video (see my March 1st comment for the link). And sadly, you don’t even listen to these Zionists: Defense Minister Dayan, P.M. Sharatt’s diary entry, Naeim Giladi or Richard Goldstone, whose report on Cast Lead was relied on extensively in that youtube talk. Would a Reagan fan absolutely refuse to pay any attention to something Reagan said? “[P]urify your hearts, you double-minded” (Jas. 4:8c). When Ahab called Elijah a troubler (I Kings 18:17) and enemy (21:20) of Israel, Jabez, do you conclude that, because of the promise (to the remnant—but you say, to genetic—- Israel in Gen. 12:1-3, and because Ahab ruled genetic Israel, that Elijah had a demon and Ahab was a man of God? I’m afraid Satan is too subtle for you, brother.
    “What a poor, blind, weak and miserable creature is man, at his best estate! We are like poor helpless sheep; the devil is too subtle for us. What is our strength! What is our wisdom! How ready are we to go astray! How easily are we drawn aside into innumerable snares, while in the mean time we are bold and confident, and doubt not but we are right and safe! We are foolish sheep in the midst of subtle serpents and cruel wolves, and do not know it. Oh how unfit are we to be left to ourselves! And how much do we stand in need of the wisdom, the power, the condescension, patience, forgiveness, and gentleness of our good Shepherd!” Emphasis added. Jonathan Edwards, Thoughts concerning the Present Revival, quoted in Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography, Iain H. Murray, Banner of Truth Trust, 1987, p. 246.
    Because of your foray into prophecy, and because we Christians are eager to witness—or even induce—the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, I’ll close with the words of the 17th-century Dutch Christian, Hugo Grotius:
     
    “A warning too I have to give, not idly, but because comparing recent and ancient events, I anticipate a great danger, unless we are on guard against it. Hopes based on some interpretation of divine prophecy are no lawful cause for war. For besides the fact that oracles which are not yet fulfilled can hardly be interpreted with certainty without the aid of the prophetic spirit, even the times of events that are sure to happen may be hidden from us. And finally, a prediction, unless it is accompanied by an express command from God, does not confer a right, for God often allows his predicted designs to be accomplished by wicked men or evil acts.”
    Hugo Grotius, The Law of War and Peace, translated by Louise R. Loomis, Book Two, Chap. 22, Sec. 15.

  12. Jon, I in no way related my thoughts about anything concerning the Middle East. So, your statement: ”

    Your perspectives on the Middle East are impaired by misusing words and names.” is jumping way ahead in assumptions of my position. I’ve not even begun to read the links you posted.  As I stated, I only remarked on your one idea. And please forgive me if my tone was somewhat, I don’t know, maybe, gruff? I’m just now engaging the reality of current events after finishing my sister’s memorial service on March 1. It seems things have greatly escalated in just the two weeks she was in the hospital. The pace of events unfolding is astounding when you step away for just a short time. Profoundly remarkable, I would say. But, I’m not at all beligerant, and I apologize to you.
    I am specifically with you on this:
    “A warning too I have to give, not idly, but because comparing recent and ancient events, I anticipate a great danger, unless we are on guard against it. Hopes based on some interpretation of divine prophecy are no lawful cause for war. For besides the fact that oracles which are not yet fulfilled can hardly be interpreted with certainty without the aid of the prophetic spirit, even the times of events that are sure to happen may be hidden from us. And finally, a prediction, unless it is accompanied by an express command from God, does not confer a right, for God often allows his predicted designs to be accomplished by wicked men or evil acts.”
    Yes, He certainly does accomplish His designs by using whatever vessel He chooses. And I further believe that all scripture is profitable for learning, instruction and, yes, the discerning of prophetic events unfolding. I don’t worry about prophesy of any sort, except that I be found going about the Lord’s work until the last second of His appearing. The Lord does, however, admonish us to “Watch” and to look for the signs of the end. “And when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.” Again He says, “Who, then, is that wise and faithful servant who will give to his family, meat in the right season?” I think the unfolding of prophesy would qualify as “meat”.
    Concerning Roman 9, the more complicated vision for the Nation of Israel, is found in Romans 11. I admit right now, that I don’t know how to interpret it other than literally. And the words the prophets spoke by the direction of the Lord, are a major part of the entire Bible. I don’t dismiss any portions of it. Prophesy scares most people and they tend to want to lay the unfolding of it at certain peoples’ feet, but, I don’t attempt to do that. The Word of God will stand, regardless of man’s designs or interpretation, which I admit to seeing as grossly flawed at times.
    How do you interpret Romans 11?
    Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [fn] of the olive tree,
    Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
    Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
    Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
    Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
    Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [fn] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
    Rom 11:27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
    Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
    Rom 11:30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
    Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [fn] receive mercy.
    Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
    Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
    Rom 11:34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
    Rom 11:35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”
    Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

    My position, then, is that God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. It was never because of Israel’s righteousness that God did anything; as He tells us, it was for His own righteousness sake. That’s the message of the entire Bible. As He says time and time again, it was never because of man’s righteousness, because we cannot attain it without Christ. And yes, He says, “though you be as numerous as the stars, only a remnant will be left.” Is God unrighteous? “Can he not make one vessel fitted for honor and another for destruction”? Did He not say, “Jacob I love, but, Esau I hate?” So, though the two sprang from the same womb, and are accounted decendents of Abraham, Jacob (Israel) was favored. Esau was not because the Lord searches the hearts and reigns and Esau’s heart was shown to be murderous in intent. We see the same murderous rage in the decendents of Esau today. Israel is once more surrounded by her enemies, “kept in on every side” and Satan does not want the Word of God to prevail, so, if he can accomplish Israel’s demise, then, the Word would fail. I wrote much more on my position in the forum on End Time Debates.

    I’ll probably be slow in engaging as I’ve much to do in my garden, but, I enjoy talking to others by way of this forum, and I’m glad we don’t all see things the same way.  I’m more curious as to how others interpret things, as opposed to antagonistic. 

    It’s a beautiful day in South Carolina!

  13. Jon,  

    Your premise for taking on the noncoverted Jews residing in today’s Israel, as primarily being worthy of the judgment of God by Old Covenant examples given, totally disregards any Plan of Redemption being in the mix for the regathering of natural Israel’s People into the Land of the People chosen by the Book to reside there since the Balfour Declaration.  The selections you used too are very selective, not putting these or your earlier quotes into the perspective, for example, of King David’s life after the Bathsheba incident.  Did he not continue with her as a wife, did not Solomon come from his loins???  Wasn’t Jesus, as Messiah on David’s throne, promised to Israel?  You seem to be more of an absolutist, who is more Tenach judgment aware than Redemptive intention cognizant.  Yet the overarching theme of scripture is Redemption, not judgment.
    The question of God’s involvement now becomes one of Redemptive Intention regarding the present day regathering into the Nation of largely nonobservant Jews, and the minority ofobservant Jews since the dispersion of the People of the Book into the Nations (and, even those observant in the present Land are of greater conformity to the so-called Oral Law, rather than the law of Moses.  So, there are not many yet acquainted with the Messiah in the present Land of the People of the Book.  Would you prevent them that opportunity by the heart you have disclosed?) .   Would you say that the Holocaust was trouble enough for certain families of Jews now resident in the chosen Nation—according to whatever measuring standard of judgment you are applying?  Or, is your heart like that heart which opposed the existence of the Jews in other historical settings (e.g. in the time of Daniel)?  It is Jesus who said he came not to bring condemnation to the world, but redemption (and He is the essential “Christian” model of the “Name” and the focal point of faith in the God He revealed to mankind).  Your argumentation leaves Jesus far from the Passover doorframes of the chosen People and far in possibility of intention from the present shores of today’s Israel.
    Why, in your understanding of the use of “God’s Name”, would you extend Holocaust kind of trouble into all other generations of offspring presently residing in Israel?  It is one thing to assume Sheila and I have misused God’s Name, or are unworthy of it (as we are indeed), and quite another altogether to act as judge and jury in His Name, as far removed from His heart of redemption as the East is from the West; for, vengeance—if applicable to a given people or situation of scriptural nonconformity or lack—would be His of the Name, nature, and impartial capacities of heart, not ours.  Yet your writing asserts much in the manner of such being your supposed right, and without a personal NT appointment as it is written to be to carry forward such intention from the OT passages of God’s judgments.  These you  have offered out of any Present Covenant relevant contexts in given of NT scriptures and intentions.  What is the Message of the Messiah King’s Gospel, and how might that apply to the present regathering, in Time (per Rom 11: 25-29).  As far as present callings in the Body of Christ, I rejoice that you have not been appointed of the Message of the Messenger sent from above to the chosen Nation.
    You summarize your self appointed role of taking on the present day establishment of Israel with a presumptive remark on supposed presumption.  “In your (believed of Sheila and Jabez) presumption, do both of you approve of the founding of modern Israel in a manner God hadn’t commanded?”   You do not know the scriptures, regarding Acts 3:21’s careful speech given the chosen Nation, or the intentions mentioned in the latter days of the passage cited Prophets of Old if you hold that God, and His Namesake Christ and followers, are not in the mix of the present establishment of Israel.  Read the Prophets of Old, where, first the People are regathered, and only then are they “made holy”.  If you need the references, just ask.  These references will be of a different focus than you have permitted to date.
    If God did not “tolerate sin”, in some measure He alone assumes, would you, Sheila, Michael Brown, or I, or anyone be permitted to now live???  He who bears the Name to the chosen Nation, Yeshua (Jesus), had much to tell the chosen Apostles, but they could not bear to hear it, and, in fact did not until it came to pass (Peter being the example of disregard, later equipped to feed and support the Message of the Gospel to the Jewish people [see Acts 3:21 as to historicity and the God of the Name’s future intention]).  They were taught for 40 days after the Resurrection on the Kingdom of God.  Are you so teachable???

  14. And Jon,  

    In light of the above given for you,  I await your answers to my inquiry, #10 here, to continue this diaglogue.  Sheila has quoted one prophecy, of Ezkl. 28, for your comprehension of the intention of the Father.

  15. Well, no one ever answers me as to how they interpret different chapters and such.  I won’t know how they are coming at any particular view without hearing from them.

    Anybody?

  16. Sheila,  Were you inquiring of Jon in your interchange?  Please give me the forum reference numbers if you are wanting me to respond.   As for Romans 11, the section I cited to Jon is clearly about a future event where salvation is extended to Israel, who has turned to Jesus as their appointed redeemer.  The result is a regrafting into the family tree of God (per Paul’s example in the passage).  We are warned as believers not to boast against the branches which were broken off from that tree.   It seemed to me that that was Jon’s position here.  He has not returned to further defend it.  

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    Hi Sheila,
    I appreciate your latest post. Sorry to hear about your sister’s passing. The longer I live (speaking of death), the more I hate Satan, Sheila. If our first parents had only listened to the words of God and refused to listen to Satan’s twisting of and slighting of God’s word, then pain and sickness and crying and death wouldn’t have entered the Paradise the Lord created for us. I also appreciated your gentle spirit and that you don’t let prophecy or politics lead you into treating others harshly. No, you didn’t offend me at all.
     
    My spiritual gift is ‘distinguishing between spirits’ (I Cor 12:10), so I don’t know for sure how to interpret the Ezekiel and Romans passages you cited, friend. I’m more concerned about how the issue of interpreting prophecy is framed. Once the proper framework (eg, our controlling assumptions; our view of Biblical history vis-a-vis God and Israel; our take on modern history; etc) is established within a context that preserves the holiness of Yeshua, the importance of using names carefully, not bearing false witness against our neighbors, and that keeps us all faithful to the integrity and infallibility of His Word, then from that point on in the discussion, I’m very open to diversity in interpreting prophecies. First I want to speculate about the 2 passages you cited. Then I want to describe what I’m pretty positive is not what the passages mean. OK? My speculation, consistent with what I stated in an earlier post, is that the term Israel in the 2 passages refers to the church universal, that is, all believers, past, present & future, Jews and Gentiles, living in any or all countries, including (of course!) in modern Israel. What I’m pretty sure isn’t the case is that the passages refer to all Israelis, that is, the sum total of all holders of Israeli passports in 2011. To me, if we argued the contrary, to wit, that ‘all Israeli citizens today’ are who the passages are referring to, this it seems to me would radically, yes radically, change the character of our holy God into an ends-justify-the-means, can’t-make-an-omelette-without-breaking-a-few-eggs (Stalin used to say the latter…..STALIN!!…what part does a God who hates sin have with the cruel, brutal, bloodthirsty Stalin!?!?) I mean, jiminy cricket! Rather than Yeshua being basically a glorified real estate agent (?!?!), He has always insisted that His ends must be accomplished through His means only. If you haven’t had a chance to read my earlier posts yet beginning Feb. 27th, Sheila, please do so. I mentioned Num. 14:41-45 as illustrative of that latter point. “Had they been there [in the hill country mentioned in Num. 14], modern Christians would have excitedly pointed out the Israelites moving in for attack [against the pagan Canaanites] and exclaimed reverently, ‘Look! Over there! It’s the children of the Lord! They’re going up to conquer the Promised Land! May God bless them!’ But because of their presumption [in attacking in a manner God forbade], He didn’t.” And “Would a Ugandan rebel militia that calls itself the Lord’s Resistance Army and that recruits its members by kidnapping gain the approval of American Christians simply on the basis of its name?” Some Parades Need Rain: A Road Map to Reconciliation in Strife-torn Times, by Jon Ivey (that’s me), pp. 89, 33 (available on amazon.com).
     
    You mentioned Rom 11:23 “And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” Amen! I agree!
     
    But the following 2 arguments are both logical fallacies, specifically, the fallacy of equivocation, to wit:
     
    Satan is the prince of the power of the air.
    There exists a Doberman Pinscher named Satan.
    Therefore, the Doberman is the prince of the power of the air.
     
    Although I just made up that fallacious argument, unfortunately many Christians are absolutely four-square, rock-solid, dead set, convinced of the following:
     
    Israel is God’s chosen people.
    On May 15th, 1948, a state calling itself Israel was declared.
    Therefore, modern Israel is the chosen people.
     
    Sheila, if I renamed myself Abram, would I be justified in going on a decades-long crime spree, murdering, destroying or expropriating others’ homes and crops, bank robbery, assassination, terrorizing, bomb-throwing, oath-breaking, blasphemy, stealing water aquifers, extorting, using human shields, etc. etc, would I be able to silence all the critics by quoting Gen. 12 “He who blesses Abram will be blessed, and he who curses him will be cursed”?
    Again, such an argument commits the fallacy of equivocation in that it changes the meaning of a major term in the argument in moving from the first to the second premise. Besides, to criticize is not to curse. God didn’t send Nathan to David to curse but to rebuke.
     
    One other point—about modern history. I know it’s a very contentious subject, and although I (mostly silently) protest the tendency to assume— despite the following passage:
     
    “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them).”  Rom. 2:14-15
     
    the (wrong) tendency to assume that Arabs, Democrats, liberals, anti-Zionists, etc, have nothing useful or edifying to contribute whatsoever in any way, shape or form from the day Adam was created until Hell freezes over (again, I protest that part of the image of God within humans is a sense of morality—distorted sometimes—but not always distorted, mind you. There are NO subhumans. Not all Jewish Israelis are honest all the time, and conversely, not all Arabs are complete liars. A cop can take eyewitness testimony from an Arab). But anyway, because of the above tendency, I’ll just fall back on the (very reasonable, I believe) assumption that, at least, we should heed the perspectives of pro-Zionists. Hence, my March 1st post above, which quoted or relied implicitly on 4 pro-Zionists, viz., Israeli Foreign Minister Moshe Dayan, Richard Goldstone (see March 1st numeral 2 youtube link), Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt and member of the Zionist Underground Naeim Giladi. Again, would a Reagan fan refuse to pay attention to something Reagan said?
     
    You say,
    “Satan does not want the Word of God to prevail, so, if he can accomplish Israel’s demise, then, the Word would fail.”
    First, God’s Word will prevail, regardless of what the US does about modern Israel. God is not some decrepit 90-pound weakling who can’t prevail against Satan unless America knocks hell out of Israel’s enemies. Secondly, are we still assuming that modern Israel is the remnant of Israel spoken of in the prophecies you cited? Thirdly, we don’t help God by becoming —unwitting— tools of the equivocating Satan. The end-times prophecies don’t justify the means, right, sister? Satan doesn’t announce, “Hello I’m the Evil One, let’s all go over to the dark side.” No, he puts on a mask of good to hide his evil. Maybe he’s more cunning and subtle than we realize.
    Finally, per your quote immediately above, Sheila, how do you interpret Numbers 16, verses 3, 7c, 10-11a, 20-21, 35, 41, 45 and 49 (esp. vss. 3 ‘the whole community is holy’ and 41)?

  18. Jon,

    Thank you for your response.  And thanks, too, for your kind words.  I see that while I thought my emotions were in check, knowing that my sister has stepped into the arms of our Lord, the human emotion of sadness and missing her just washes over me with no warning and so, I’m still dealing with the loss of her.  Praise the Lord she was walking with Him before she passed.  The Lord is sensitive to our limited understanding and the sorrow of the passing of our loved ones when the NT tells us, “Jesus wept.”  And so I look to Him to comfort and stengthen me during this time.

    I will go back and read what you suggested before responding.  I’ve been especially busy, diliberately I realize, in working in the yard.  I grow a good variety of our food for freezing and canning and drying for the winter months, so, I will be slow, but, thanks for responding.  I was beginning to wonder if I scared you off.  And so, I was searching my heart to see if there wasn’t something I needed to work on–there is…

    Thanks, Jon.  Oh, is that a book you wrote that you cited?   I’ve always been a book worm, especially for “the Book”!

  19. Jon,

    Before I get back with you, I have to say something that struck me as unusual and funny.  You are the only other person I know that uses the same phrase I do!  “jiminy crickets.”  I also say, “jeepers” a lot too.

    If you can imagine it, I looked it up years ago, and they were considered curse words by the Victorians, I think!!?  Oh, that people would cuss in such a benign way today…not to say you were cussing.  It’s a word of frustration; that’s how I understand and use it.

  20. From Jon:  “do both of you approve of the founding of modern Israel in a manner God hadn’t commanded?”
     
    The founding of the state of Israel was in response to the holocaust and I think it was justified and in keeping with the dry bones of Ezekiel being resurrected from the ashes of the pograms they suffered, most notibly under Hitler. Unfortunately, on this side of eternity, with human enmity still rife, men are all flawed and war is a given consequence of our fallen nature. I’ll certainly be elated when “men learn war no more.” I think, though, that the founding of modern Israel is in complete agreement with the Word of God according to the OT prophets who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The Lord said He would re-gather them back to the land of Israel from all the countries He had scattered them into; that is, “after” the fulness of the Gentiles had come into Messiah’s fold.

     

    FROM THIS ARTICLE: “Most Israelis have come to the conclusion that the Jewish state has no choice but to offer the several million Arabs in the West Bank their own state. Nevertheless, Israel is fearful of the way it appears Obama will make it happen.”

    According to the modern prophetic writers who say 2/3rds of Israel, and/or, of Jerusalem will be slaughtered in the last days, why couldn’t those 2/3 rds be Muslims and not Israelis? I say, let them have those 2/3 rds and we won’t have to worry about “who” it is getting clobbered!! Take it, please. John Hagee, Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey and others are always pointing to that prophesy, so, they should also be “in defense of” (a book by Hagee–”In Defense of Israel”) the arabs occupying it and not the Israelis. It seems they haven’t thought it out carefully. They want Israel to occupy all of the land promised to them–I don’t for exactly the reasons they state!!
     

    ibid.: ”

     

    But that is not all. Israel is falling behind in military capabilities. “According to the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, every Israeli request for upgraded weapons systems has been denied, while the Arab states, most notably Egypt, have been provided with numerous advanced systems on par with Israel’s.” Most recently, bunker busters necessary for any attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities were denied.”
    I read something entirely different in the following sources:
    http://www.truth-out.org/israel-seals-unprecedented-weapons-deals-with-us64373
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/…/main6774618.shtml
    http://www.vosizneias.com/…/jerusalem-israel-to-purchase-f-35i-fighter-jets-from-u-s/
    And we better be praying that Ron Paul doesn’t make any headway in getting elected as President, because he and his son are very clear in their intentions concerning pulling aid from Israel.
    http://www.arkansasonline.com/…/gop-senator-favors-cutting-us-aid-israel/
     
    ibid.: I certainly and wholeheartedly agree with this: “Israel’s only hope is God.” And if the Lord would have them alone with no earthly help before they will cry out to Him, well, that is His to accomplish.
     
    I’ve not answered your questions yet, Jon, because I had begun this days ago. Thanks, Jabez, for answering with your thoughts. I guess it was an open ended statement that I made.

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    Hi Jabez,
     
    I suggested in my last post to Sheila that we equivocate when we use the term ‘Israel’ in one sense in the first premise of an argument, but then switch to another meaning of the same term in the next premise. This is the fallacy of equivocation. Has Satan, the Doberman, been keeping your family awake at night with his barking? ;););) Please read more about this in that post. It’s easy to mix genetic Israel and remnant Israel and modern Israel up, no? ;)
     
    You mentioned Acts 3:21:
     
    “He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.” Amen! You, and many others, assume that this refers to the establishment of modern Israel, and honestly Jabez, I respectfully disagree for the reasons I’ve cited previously. I agree with Sheila that Yeshua is the same yesterday, today and forever. But it seems to me that you see God changing sometime around 1917 when the Balfour Declaration was published or perhaps even earlier during Theodor Herzl’s lifetime. Did He become a relativist? No. Did He become unholy? No. Did He later become unconcerned about the gross injustice of punishing the Arabs for the horrible sins of the Nazis? No. Yes, you’re quite right that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews. But an Arab doctor wrote these words after the Holocaust:
     
    “We all sympathize with the Jews and are shocked at the way Christian nations are persecuting them. But do you expect Moslems of Palestine…to be more Christian or more humanitarian than the followers of Christ: Germany, Italy, Poland, Romania, etc. etc.? Have we to suffer in order to make good what you Christians commit?” One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate, Tom Segev, Metropolitan Books, 2000, p. 465.
     
    The fact of the Holocaust no more justifies what happened to the Palestinians than the fact of the genocide committed by the Turks against the Armenians would justify the brutal invasion, ethnic cleansing, harsh military occupation and colonizing of the state of New York. My purpose is not to speak ill of the Israelis. I bear absolutely no ill will against them, Jabez. They are most welcome to stay put. I love everybody. The Israeli state is a fait accompli. (Do my feelings surprise you?) My concern is that whatever you or I do or say about the Middle East, we should not sin. If Israel is brutal, we should say so. If Israel is unjust, ditto. Etc. To deny it is to bear false witness, if in fact Israel is unjust, brutal, etc. We should not be partial (partiality is strictly forbidden both in the Tanakh and the New Testament, eg Exod. 23:1-3, Deut. 1:16-17, Lev. 24:22, James 3:17c, I Tim. 5:21) (was Yeshua partial in Num. 14:41-45?), we should not slander, we should never equivocate about words, we should never let our political opinions entice us into breaking any of the 10 commandments, including the third, sixth, eighth, ninth and tenth commandments against misusing God’s or any other name, against murder, stealing, lying or coveting. And so it seems to me, even after all your posts on Israel, that Zionism, at least political Zionism, is unacceptable to the holy (yes, absolutist) God we serve.
     
    On the other hand, I greatly admire spiritual Zionism! Are you familiar with the father of spiritual (or, cultural) Zionism, Asher Ginsberg (1856-1927) (aka, Ahad Ha’am), Jabez?
    He wrote these words after a visit to the Holy Land:
    “We must surely learn, from both our past and present history, how careful we must be not to provoke the anger of the native people by doing them wrong, how we should be cautious in our dealings with a foreign people among whom we returned to live, to handle these people with love and respect and, needless to say, with justice and good judgment. And what do our brothers do? Exactly the opposite! They were slaves in their Diasporas, and suddenly they find themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that only a country like Turkey [the Ottoman Empire] can offer. This sudden change has planted despotic tendencies in their hearts, as always happens to former slaves [’eved ki yimlokh – when a slave becomes king – Proverbs 30:22]. They deal with the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamefully for no sufficient reason, and even boast about their actions. There is no one to stop the flood and put an end to this despicable and dangerous tendency.” (quoted in Wrestling with Zion, Grove Press, 2003 PB, p. 15)” (from wikipedia).
    “….It is not widely known, that the rather shy Ahad Ha’am was a talented negotiator: In this role he was engaged during the ‘language controversy’ that accompanied the founding of the Haifa Technikum (today: the Technion) and in the negotiations culminating in the Balfour Declaration.[10]” See wikipedia article about Ahad Ha’am. Also see Steven J. Zipperstein’s biography, Elusive Prophet: Ahad Ha’am and the Origins of Zionism.
    Many people don’t realize how Herzl felt about Jews. According to wikipedia:
    “Herzl had minimal interest in Judaism as a child, consistent with his parents’ lax adherence to the Jewish tradition. His mother relied more on German humanist Kultur than Jewish ethics. Instead of a Bar Mitzvah, Herzl’s thirteenth birthday was advertised a “confirmation”. To be sure, he grew up as a “thoroughly emancipated, antitraditional, secular, would-be German boy” who dismissed all religion, and spoke of Judaism with “mocking cynicism.” He exhibited a secularist disdain toward religion, which he saw as uncivilized. Even after becoming interested in the Jewish question, Herzl’s writing retained traces of Jewish self-contempt.”
    “….In his novel Altneuland, Herzl wrote about an electoral campaign in the new state. He directed his wrath against the nationalist party which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine. Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance – that this was true in politics as well as in religion.”
    Herzl wrote:
    ‘Matters of faith were once and for all excluded from public influence. … Whether anyone sought religious devotion in the synagogue, in the church, in the mosque, in the art museum, or in a philharmonic concert, did not concern society. That was his [own] private affair.’ (Quoted in “Zion & the Jewish National Idea”, in Zionism Reconsidered, Macmillan, 1970 PB, p.185).”
    The theme of Herzl’s hostility towards traditional Judaism is developed more fully in the following video, produced by shofar.net, narrated in Hebrew with English subtitles:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=related
    Holocaust survivor Israel Shahak wrote Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years, available free @:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/shahak.html#3
    Excerpt from chap. 4 below:
    “We must confront the Jewish past and those aspects of the present which are based simultaneously on lying about that past and worshiping it. The prerequisites for this are, first, total honesty about the facts and, secondly, the belief (leading to action, whenever possible) in universalist human principles of ethics and politics.”
    I’m disappointed that none of the commands of Yeshua that I cited for you, Jabez, have led to either repentance (or even just concern that you might be sinning against God) or even a basic acknowledgement of their importance in regulating our conduct. Sin is any lack of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God. (If I’ve overlooked any exception to this, where you responded in writing to commands I cited, please correct me). Partiality, double-mindedness, misusing God’s word or name (eg, misquoting Gen 12:1-3, transforming his character of holiness into something else, misusing the word ‘Israel’ over and over and over—in fairness, brother, you’re not the only one), lying (see my March 1st post)— although perhaps I didn’t come right out on Mar. 1 and say you lied— these are all forbidden. You, and others, say that Israel is the eternal victim, that Muslims are blood-thirsty haters, that Bin Laden committed 9/11 (if you believe that, call the FBI today and reveal that fact to them—quick, pick up the phone, before Bin Laden gets away!! Whoa, there he is, boarding a plane for Guadalajara!! Stop that man, I say!!!), that Iran is an existential threat to Israel, that anti-Zionists are haters. All bogus lies. Remember when we were told that Saddam Hussein was a gra-a-ve threat to US national security, about the mushroom cloud being just 45 minutes away, and that those who decry invasion are nothing but appeasers a la Neville “Peace in our time” Chamberlain? Calf slobber, Jabez. Do chickens have lips? Mule feathers. I have a sleek new bridge in the middle of the Sahara Desert, built by Martian slave labor with the right to collectively bargain, that has a coal-fired drawbridge activated either by moon rays, or on every third Tuesday, by a Zionist inadvertently burping & using the word ‘Israel’ correctly [?!?!] in a Philly kosher deli, so the tall camels can mosey on through, without breaking stride, while keeping a gimlet-eye on their Old Ladies to avert gallivantin’ off with those hairy-chested bachelor camels, or goin’ native, or something. I’ll let you have this bad boy either for 500 dollars or for a song. But please, no songs by Bachman Turner Overdrive or Rick Astley! And refusing to listen (James 1:19) is forbidden. You refuse to listen to God’s commands, you (apparently) refuse to listen to the substance of my posts, and you refuse to listen to Zionists.
    “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” (Mark 7:9)
    “So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says” (Jer. 18:18c)
    “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry” (James 1:19)
    “His sheep follow him because they know his voice” (John 10:4b)
    You still boast that you know God’s true nature. “’He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?’ declares the Lord. ‘But your eyes and your heart are set only on…shedding innocent blood and on oppression’” (Jer. 22:16-17). “This is what the Lord says: ‘Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom [Hi, Jabez, how’s it goin’ today?]…but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,’ declares the Lord” (Jer. 9:23-24). “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy” (Prov. 31:8-9).
    “Can a corrupt throne be allied with you—one that brings on misery by its decrees?” (Psa. 94:20)
    “Whom have you so dreaded and feared that you have been false to me?” (Isa. 57:11)
    “To crush underfoot all prisoners in the land, to deny a man his rights before the Most High, to deprive a man of justice —- would not the Lord see such things?” (Lam. 3:34-36) Thousands upon thousands of Palestinians languish in Israel’s prisons without charge and are tortured brutally. Some are believers:
    For example, Beshar Saidi (scroll to pp. 8 & 11 of the pdf below):
    http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol34_issue3_2001.pdf
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/christians.html
    Excerpt below:
    “Christian Zionism is an odd thing on many levels. A key tenet of Christian Zionism is absolute support for Israel, whose establishment and existence, it is believed, heralds Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. The politically relevant upshot of this is that without Israel’s expansion there can be no redemption, and those who subscribe to this interpretation are only too eager to sacrifice their Palestinian fellow Christians on the altar of Zionism. They do not want to hear about coreligionists’ suffering at the hands of Israel.
    “….Christians find themselves under the hammer of the Israeli occupation to no less an extent than Muslims, yet America—supposedly a Christian country—stands idly by because its most politically influential Christians have decided that Palestinian Christians are acceptable collateral damage in their apocalyptic quest. “To be a Christian from the land of Christ is an honor,” says Abbas, a Palestinian Christian whose family lived in Jerusalem for many generations until the purge of 1948. “To be expelled from that land is an injury, and these Zionist Christians in America add insult.” Abbas is one of the handful of Palestinian Christians that could be described as Evangelical, belonging to a group that appears to be distantly related to the Plymouth Brethren. Cherishing the role of devil’s advocate, I had to ask him, “Is the State of Israel not in fact the fulfillment of God’s promise and a necessary step in the second coming of Christ?” Abbas looked at me briefly and laughed. “You’re kidding, right? You know what they do to our people and our land. If I thought that was part of God’s plan, I’d be an atheist in a second.”
    “Be alert and always keep on praying for all [yes, ‘all’] the saints” (Eph. 6:18).

     

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/halsell.html
    “Do not spread false reports [about Bin Laden or Iran, etc]. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness. Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong.” (Exod. 23:1-2a)
    “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Eph. 5:11). Zionists collude with deeds of darkness, such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk (the collusion is a sin against the command ‘have nothing to do with’) and suppress, rather than expose, the evil (a sin), by ignoring testimony about it.
    And finally, do you participate in Korah’s rebellion? I hope not. “He “became insolent…” “You have gone too far [Korah preached to full-of-Egyptian-cooties Moses]! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them” (Num. 16:1b, 3b). But [the anti-Israel?] Moses answered, in part “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy…You Levites have gone too far!” (vss. 5, 7b). “The [anti-Israel?] Lord said to Moses and Aaron, ‘Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once’” (vs. 21). Note especially verse 41, Jabez: “The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against the [anti-Semites--- and possibly not even believers?] Moses and Aaron. ‘You have killed the Lord’s people,’ they said.” To which the Lord responded in vs. 45: “Get away from this [presumptuous? proto-Zionist?] assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And vs. 49 from the anti-relativist Lord Yeshua’s Word reads: “But 14,700 people died from the [anti-Zionist?] plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.”
    I hope you’ll agree that Korah and the other insolent proto-Zionists in Numbers 16 were absolutely wrong, Jabez. Politics doesn’t make morals disappear.

     
     

  22. We are admonished to “Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper who love you.”  Is this no longer true?  The “fact” that the city is still called “Jerusalem: the city of the Great King” should tell us something.  That the Lord has placed His Name there, forever.

    Jon: “I’m more concerned about how the issue of interpreting prophecy is framed. Once the proper framework (eg, our controlling assumptions; our view of Biblical history vis-a-vis God and Israel; our take on modern history; etc) is established within a context that preserves the holiness of Yeshua, the importance of using names carefully, not bearing false witness against our neighbors, and that keeps us all faithful to the integrity and infallibility of His Word, then from that point on in the discussion, I’m very open to diversity in interpreting prophecies.”
     
    Ok, that’s fair enough. So, my interpretation of the prophesies concerning Israel is that it can only refer to “the remnant that the Lord has gathered back to the land where the Lord ‘has placed His Name forever’”. Since it says, “back from where He scattered them”, this would include the scattering that took place in the first century AD, would it not? The Holiness of Yeshua is not dependent of our holiness. So, to say the Lord will not accomplish anything more than when He granted us forgiveness of our sins, is to say He cannot do anything “FOR HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS SAKE”, which is not the God as outlined in Scripture. Our enemy is not made of flesh and blood and so it is impossible sometimes to discern his workings; yes, he is said to be “more subtle than all the creatures the Lord God has made.” But, our enemy is in no way finished in his attempts to foil God’s plan. If, and it’s true, the plan of redemption has been accomplished, why is Satan working so hard to exterminate the Jews? Why did Satan raise up Hitler, and more specifically, Mohammed by “parading as an angel of light” in claiming to Mohammed that he was Gabriel? Seems like those words came true in birthing the largest nation opposed to Israel since the kingdoms of Assyria and Babylon and of the Hittites came against them. Is it not curious that all Muslims worship a false prophet and by extention a false god? And that “the Lord has not sent that prophet”, Satan has? I don’t see the Muslim kingdom as the underdogs at all. No. The tiny nation of Israel lives in fear for their very lives every single day. If America were under seige from our neighbors to the north and the south on a daily basis, what would the mindset of our people be? Would we say, “Oh well, we can’t defend ourselves because Jesus doesn’t want us to.” I used your statement in an exposition on Bonhoeffer. That the Lord, perhaps, kept him from judgement by not allowing his “means to justify the end” of his attempt to assassinate Hitler. But, can a sovereign nation, on this side of the Millennium really justify that argument? Would the citizens of these United States stand idly by and be overun by our enemies?  Every nation will defend itself from outside aggression which threatens their peace. I wish I had the money to read your book, as I might get a better understanding of your position on the Palestinian and Israeli conflict. I just can’t afford to do that right now, so, we’ll have to proceed from where we are.
     
    Am I right in reading your intention to say that Osama bin Laden did “not” have a hand in the events of 9/11? (bushavi?) Did he not fund it? Did he not promote it? Did he not stir the pot against the great satan until it was boiling? I don’t see it. Some of the terrorists, it’s true, came from the UAE, but, it is clear the plot was hatched from the belly of Saudi Arabia.  Or, perhaps, you are not in agreement with the findings of the 9/11 Commission?Are they not to be considered radical Muslims with murderous intent? To kill innocent victims for Allah, the god they made in the image of Satan, is this not contrary to the Lord?  Are they not “terrorists”? You’ll have to elaborate on that for me, as I’m stumped.
     
    Jon:  “You mentioned Rom 11:23 “And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” Amen! I agree!”
    Also, you said, “Sheila, if I renamed myself Abram, would I be justified in going on a decades-long crime spree, murdering, destroying or expropriating others’ homes and crops, bank robbery, assassination, terrorizing, bomb-throwing, oath-breaking, blasphemy, stealing water aquifers, extorting, using human shields, etc. etc, would I be able to silence all the critics by quoting Gen. 12 “He who blesses Abram will be blessed, and he who curses him will be cursed”?
    “Again, such an argument commits the fallacy of equivocation in that it changes the meaning of a major term in the argument in moving from the first to the second premise. Besides, to criticize is not to curse. God didn’t send Nathan to David to curse but to rebuke.”
     
    Would you agree, Jon, that the mouthpiece of Ahmadinajah and the murderous words of bin Laden are, indeed, cursing the Nation of Abraham? Do not the radical Muslims curse them (the physical decendents) and us (the spiritual decendents) when they declare that they will “wipe us off the face of the earth”? Surely you don’t think they are only “rebuking” them and us. This is what is meant by Gen. 12. It appears that Satan has found another Baalam.  I’m beginning to think, that perhaps, you don’t see any place for the Israelites in the land of Israel. Is that correct?
     
    You say,
    “Satan does not want the Word of God to prevail, so, if he can accomplish Israel’s demise, then, the Word would fail.”
    First, God’s Word will prevail, regardless of what the US does about modern Israel. God is not some decrepit 90-pound weakling who can’t prevail against Satan unless America knocks hell out of Israel’s enemies. Secondly, are we still assuming that modern Israel is the remnant of Israel spoken of in the prophecies you cited? Thirdly, we don’t help God by becoming —unwitting— tools of the equivocating Satan. The end-times prophecies don’t justify the means, right, sister? Satan doesn’t announce, “Hello I’m the Evil One, let’s all go over to the dark side.” No, he puts on a mask of good to hide his evil. Maybe he’s more cunning and subtle than we realize.
    Finally, per your quote immediately above, Sheila, how do you interpret Numbers 16, verses 3, 7c, 10-11a, 20-21, 35, 41, 45 and 49 (esp. vss. 3 ‘the whole community is holy’ and 41)?

     

    And who do you see as the kingdom “tool” of Satan? Would you say that the Muslims represent the One True God? Do they even know Him? Is not Mohammed a False Prophet? Why, in the history of the world, has Satan always seated himself immediately opposite wherever the Jews find themselves? You ask, ”

     

    are we still assuming that modern Israel is the remnant of Israel spoken of in the prophecies you cited?” Assumption would be, neccessarily by definition, based on speculation, which this “fact” is not. It’s obvious that only a “remnant” survived the holocaust as a people. Historic fact. Not speculation. So, yes, I certainly do see them as the remnant spoken of in the prophesies. Do you see the kingdom of the beast of the Revelation as rising from the Muslim majority of the Middle East? Because I do. They are the decendents of Esau and of the seed of the serpent. I don’t see the EU as the “beast that was, yet is not (in John’s day–which the Roman Empire WAS), yet will be again.” It absolutely “cannot” refer to the Revised Roman Empire no matter how you slice it. So, the enemy of God must have been one very ancient empire and enemy of His designs. Let’s go back to Nimrod and then look forward to the present and spy out all the “types and antitypes” of the enemy of Messiah and you’ll see “where” our Lord’s adversary has “his seat”. It is more than obvious to me, that when we refuse to see what is directly in front of us because we want to fit our own prophetic reading of Scripture on our own particular slant, rather than letting reality and the Scripture speak the Truth for Itself, we see the knee-jerk fruit of that error. God’s enemies are to be found, always, directly opposite and, usually, coming from the north, (because that is the only way they could take Jerusalem in ancient times), of “the place where the Lord chose to put His Name FOREVER”. Are Muslims heirs of the promises at this present time? Do they serve the Living God and Father of our Lord, Jesus, the Messiah? No, they don’t. There are many, however, who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus and the Lord is working in the Middle East. Sadly, though, Satan has many more children, at present, than does the married wife. And I’m not limiting that statement to the Middle East, as it’s true worldwide. Babylon now encompasses the entire globe. It’s not Babylon proper, but, it’s the spirit of antichrist at work in the children of disobedience that are the enemy of Christ. Let’s agree, though, that at present, both Jew and Muslim alike are outside the covenant of Messiah. And so, you can’t have it that Israel is “not” back in the land of the promise “and” that it is not prophetic. What are they doing there if not by the Hand of God? Are you thinking this is all by “human design”? Because that is taking Glory away from the Sovereign Lord to say so. And, would the Lord bring them back to the land of His Covenant if He had designs to annihilate them!!?? Why not let Hitler finish the job? Be done with them! No, the prophets still speak today, by way of the Holy Spirit, something Wonderful, Majestic and far beyond human comprehension concerning Israel. And, Satan certainly does not want the Word of God to find completion “in the latter days.” Hence, I see their deliverance as being nothing short of Miraculous when the Lord steps back into human history. Just as in the beginning of their deliverance from Egypt, if the Lord were to destroy them, His enemy would magnify “himself” against the Lord by saying, “the Lord has not done all of this” and that “He is not able to deliver them from my hand” and so, for His own sake, and His own righteousness, His enemy will not prevail.
     
    My Statements: “It was never because of Israel’s righteousness that God did anything; as He tells us, it was for His own righteousness sake.”
    And, “The Word of God will stand, regardless of man’s designs or interpretation, which I admit to seeing as grossly flawed at times.”
    And, “We all need to keep in mind that God is Lord over all the earth and that His will is going to be accomplished regardless of the schemes of men, be they good or evil.”

    It seems to me that you are pursuaded that the Church, proper, has replaced all covenants with Israel, the nation. Am I correct in my analysis? This is the point of departure, then, for our different view points. I don’t believe that the Scriptures and the Word support that argument. The Lord has made it known by way of His prophets and yes, even the NT writers that there is still a place for the nation of Israel in the last days. He will be King over Israel. He says of Israel, before granting them Saul, “Alright, if you don’t want me to be King over you, I’ll give you your king, but, you’ll be sorry..” (paraphrased) And too, He says, “I SHALL BE KING OVER YOU!” Messiah has not yet taken His Kingship to Himself. If there is no modern Israel, as a nation, who will He come to be King over? Yes, the whole earth, but, all the prophets make it clear, it is more specifically the nation of Israel and the same geographical location from where He departed, namely, the Mount of Olives being where His feet will touch down; “In that day.” He will come to “remove ungodliness from Jacob”, and He will “take away their sins in a single day and remember them no more.” Not only that, but, the scriptures are more specific when they declare that Israel (the nation of) will reign over their enemies. Now, those who hold your view state that this was fulfilled in the kingdom of David and of Solomon and then they were expelled for disobedience. Is this your position also? Yes they were, however, in keeping with Kingship, it was not the Kingdom of Messiah specifically spoken of that was fulfilled in those days, as it is yet to be instituted. So, if there is no nation of Israel, there is no fulfillment of those prophesies. You and I both agree that not one Word will fail that the Lord has proclaimed. We have to keep in mind those Words that have not yet “found their mate” in completion. And, the prophets spoke what they did “after” Israel went into exile, so, on that basis alone, they are unfullfilled prophesies which speak to Israel ruling over their enemies when the Lord gathers them once more back to “His” land. As I said, and as scripture says, “it was never because of Israel’s righteousness” that the Lord did anything. They were blinded, in part, “until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.” And then, what does it say? “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall remove ungodliness from Jacob.” If Jacob were only Messianic Jews being spoken of, it wouldn’t make any sense to say, “until” we have come in. Can we agree that there was only a “small remnant” who came out of the holocaust? Were they all righteous? No, they’re not. Can any of us say we are worthy of the Lord’s mercy? Only through Messiah can any of us claim righteousness. If, the Lord, willing to show His Great Power, will heal Israel with one stroke, well, in fact, that’s what the scriptures say He will do. I’m merely reading the passages at face value. They will, as a people, cry out to Him; “Baruch habah beshem Adonai.” The Church, as the Body, has blessings bestowed immediately upon the Lord’s return. The Nation of Israel is yet to have the veil removed and to “look upon Him whom they have pierced and to mourn for Him as one does an only Son.” There must be a remnant of the Nation of Israelites in order for the numerous prophesies concerning the last days to be fulfilled.  There can be no equivocating on that point.  Unless, perhaps, you see all the prophesies as having been fulfilled already.  (?)

    Now, I agree, not everything they do to survive is righteous. But, in separating ourselves from current affairs and looking at the broader scheme of things, we see the Lord’s hand in all of these events; well, I do anyway. That’s probably why I’m not bothered and “fearful” of seeing those things coming to pass. I am completely at peace in the time of history that the Lord has placed me in. I wholeheartedly “Trust in the Lord with all my heart and I do not lean to my own understanding of things.” It’s enough for me to know that “His will is being done on earth, as it is in Heaven.” Since we are all still in a fallen state, can He, in fact, use anything other than broken vessels? Not that I can see. Every nation, every key player is in place exactly where the Lord wants them. That’s not to say He won’t judge their intentions, it’s just to say, He uses broken vessels because that’s what we all are. And as far as America is concerned, I’ve stated many times, that we are some of the most narcissistic people on the face of the earth!! We see everything through our perch on high, and that is vanity. But, that’s another subject altogether. I think, as a Nation, we should humble ourselves and we might stand a chance! If we refuse to humble ourselves, the Lord will do it for us. “His heart is not right, which is lifted up in him.”

    Concerning Numbers 16, I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but, I’ll gladly give you my interpretation of it in a post to follow.

  23. Jon,  When you address my posted questions put to you, per #10 and #14, I will address yours.  Your position thus far is anti-Semetic and these qualifications are needed for us to proceed. 

  24. Jon=Michael Korn??? Just clarify, re: false representation as your issue, if you will.

  25. Sheila,   Thanks for all your careful efforts.  I agree with and appreciate these thought through redemptive words.  Reasoning is not the best approach in this case.  If “Jon” is who I think he is I request that you let he and I proceed here, provided he answer the questions past posed to him.   I request that you engage in spiritual warfare prayer in this regard for however long our interchange occurs.  Write me an e-mail if this is unclear for any reason. “Jon” is a deeply wounded and reactive former orthodox Jew, once in a Yeshiva community, who lost everything in the Land on acceptance of Yeshua, by following the separation path given him by his former mentors (wife, children, etc.).  Unfortunately there is also reaction formation and strong delusion in the mix.  Pray for discernment here, honesty here, gentleness here, and deliverance here.

    Also,  on You Tube there is posted a video of an angel of light coming over Mecca and landing on its central prostration gathering place’s black center building roof (I do not wish to “honor” it with an Islamic reference, for it is a fallen angel so seen, keeping the delusion going).  It is pretty clearly an angel; I have seen one from our Father praying quietly in a grove near a stream in Northwestern Israel, upper Galillee district, perhaps lower Golan district–on its knees when I was there, alone, near sunset.  I had the sense of intercession for the People of the Land of the Book, and holding back evil. 

    We see through a glass darkly. Jon’s cynicism comes from his deep of deepest woundedness.  Pray too for Michael Brown’s ministry as we engage here, this will test us all. 

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    Hi Jabez
     
    I understand that you consider yourself a child of God and that you consider me evil. But judge for yourself: Have I ever misquoted the Bible? But when I pointed out someone’s misquote of Gen 12:1-3 (the text refers to Abram, not his grandson Israel, when it says ‘I will bless those who bless you’), you amplified on the misquote instead of regretting the misquote. (I’m paraphrasing you: “God will bless those of like faith” you said. But you lied—the text doesn’t say that). In a later post you denied that your misquote applied to me— by denying that I’m a Christian, then slandered my good name in other ways, about which more later. Satan was a slanderer and false accuser. And he misquoted God in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:1ff). Also, you are proud of how you know God’s nature. Satan “knew” God’s nature too, or so he thought! Gen. 3:5 reads: “God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So the devil interprets God for us! Like you, Jabez! And you understand what God meant to say in Gen. 12!! And every single time (that I recall) when I pointed out that Yeshua doesn’t agree with you, you made no response, but instead smeared me. You decry relativism in one post, then accuse me of absolutism in another. By your fruits you will be known, friend.
    You speak of spiritual warfare against me. “[The anti-Zionist?] Christ’s return may come as a surprise because so many of His followers will be working for the losing side unawares.” (from p. 122 of my book Some Parades Need Rain).
    Are you his follower? Your weapon is talk, but where’s the fruit?
    “His sheep follow him because they know his voice” (John 10:4b)
    But I remember now
    I am in this earthly world: where to do harm
    Is often laudable, to do good sometime
    Accounted dangerous folly.— Macbeth
    “So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says” (Jer. 18:18c)
    You’re also very passionately in favor of equivocation, one of Satan’s tools. Here are more examples (see if you can pick out the one argument below that isn’t equivocal, Jabez):
     
     
    Theodor Herzl was anti-Semitic.
    Jabez adores Herzl.
    Therefore Jabez is anti-Semitic.
     
     
    Only God deserves to be worshiped.
    Allah is God —according to Muslims, not me!!!
    Therefore since Jabez doesn’t give 2 hoots what words mean, he feels he must worship Allah.
     
    And here’s one not illustrative of equivocation, but of your attitude:
    Jabez saw a mole in the bathroom mirror.
    Jabez is conceited.
    Therefore the mirror has a mole…of course.
    When the mirror denied having a mole, the False Prophet Who Understands God Better Than God Himself accused the mirror of arrogance, absolutism, boasting, relativism, conceit, absolutism, naivete, relativism, of being Michael Korn, & being anti-all-people-whose-initials-are-JH, etc, etc, etc & summoned it before his bema seat for interrogation. When it prudently declined 3 separate summons, Jabez viciously slandered it.

    “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be…boastful, proud, abusive,…unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous,…brutal,…treacherous, rash, conceited…. Have nothing to do with them.” II Tim. 3:1-5
    James 3:17 -18 says “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate [Hi Jabez], submissive [Hi again], full of mercy and good fruit, impartial [COUGH, COUGH] and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.”
     
    Zech. 7:9-12  “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.’ But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the Lord Almighty was very angry.”
     
    Titus 3:10 -11: “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
    1 Cor. 5:11: “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is…an idolater or a slanderer…. With such a man do not even eat.”
    Am I wasting my time calling you to repentance? Do you disagree with Jehoiakim’s contempt for the Word of God (below)?
    “In the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the Lord: ‘Take a scroll and write on it all the words I have spoken to you concerning Israel, Judah and all the other nations….’ The king sent Jehudi to get the scroll, and Jehudi brought it from the room of Elishama the secretary and read it to the king and all the officials standing beside him.  It was the ninth month and the king was sitting in the winter apartment, with a fire burning in the firepot in front of him.  Whenever Jehudi had read three or four columns of the scroll, the king cut them off with a scribe’s knife and threw them into the firepot, until the entire scroll was burned in the fire. The king and all his attendants who heard all these words showed no fear, nor did they tear their clothes.  Even though Elnathan, Delaiah and Gemariah urged the king not to burn the scroll, he would not listen to them” (Jer. 36: 1-2; 36: 21-25).
    “The essence of ungodliness is that we presume to take the place of God, to take everything into our own hands”  (John Murray’s comment on Rom. 12:19, quoted in Dale Ralph Davis, Looking on the Heart, Volume 2, Expositions of I Samuel 15-31, Baker Books, 1994, p. 108, footnote 10).
    “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.  Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths [like Zionism]” (II Tim. 4:3-4).
    Pastor Gene Carlson of Westlink Christian Church, Wichita, Kansas said: “When you mix politics and religion, you get politics.”
    “I am convinced that the Babylon of the Apocalypse [see Rev. 17:3-6] does…apply…to the union of Religion with Power and Wealth, wherever it is found” (Samuel Taylor Coleridge, ed. H.J. Jackson, Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 699, endnote to line 323 of Coleridge’s poem Religious Musings).

    Since it might become necessary to shun you, Jabez, I’ll just go ahead and share my final thoughts with you, in case you decide to slander me again (see I Cor 5:11 & Titus 3:10-11 above). I won’t mind continuing our dialogue as time permits, but only if you aren’t divisive or slanderous. Deal?
    By the way, I smiled a lot when you said to Sheila that I’m a reactive ex-Orthodox Israeli Jew who lost everything blah blah blah. In a way, I feel complemented because I genuinely like Jews. I’m Jon (not Jonathan, just Jon) Ivey, a life-long American, white, blonde blue-eyed, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, born in Iowa, and lived in Alabama, Manhattan, New Jersey and Georgia. Are you going to deny what I’m saying? Are you going to lie again? Do you know that the Number 1 subway train (the number ‘1’ on the front of the train sits inside a red circle) runs through Manhattan from uptown down to Chambers Street and stops at the World Trade Center, Jabez? (I worked in Manhattan from 1988-1992). Did you know that the name of the train that runs from Chambers St. to Jersey City is called the PATH train, Jabez? PATH stands for Port Authority Trans Hudson, because it runs underneath the Hudson River. Did you know that the 305 Madison Avenue property where I worked was owned by Leona Helmesley, & that it’s opposite Grand Central Terminal? Did you know that the Port Authority Bus Terminal is located at Eighth Ave & 42nd St? Do you know where Trump Tower is? I’ve been in it. It’s on Fifth Avenue. Did you know that NYC sidewalk vendors sell knishes? I could continue, but need I go on? I’ve never been outside the USA.
    You said I was an anti-Semite, too, but you lied again.
    In fairness to you, you did speak to Sheila of the importance of kindness recently, as you girded your loins for spiritual warfare against…..a Christian!!
    On 16 August [2010] in a piece for the Huffington Post which was originally published by the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz in Hebrew, Henry Siegman added this:
    “It was not an anti-Semite seeking to delegitimize the Jewish state, but Theodore Meron, an internationally respected jurist and the legal advisor to Israel’s Foreign Ministry, who following the war of 1967 conveyed the following legal opinion to Israel’s Foreign Minister Abba Eban: “Civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention,” to which Israel is a signatory. That convention’s ban on population transfer is “categorical…. The convention’s purpose is to prevent settlement in occupied territory of citizens of the occupying state.”
    As to the matter of your (and others’) false prophecy about Iran:
    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/
    (Richard Silverstein is a Zionist, Jabez. Do you listen to them?)
    December 14th, 2010 blog entry:
    “For some reason, the book title Lies My Father Told Me comes into my head in regards to this post.  In this case, I’m writing about lies the anti-Iran hawks tell repeatedly.  One of the chief ones is that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad once said that Iran would “wipe Israel off the face of the earth.” Here’s even the supposedly distinguished Gray Lady getting it wrong:
    “Iran’s conservative new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said Wednesday that Israel must be “wiped off the map” and that attacks by Palestinians would destroy it, the ISNA press agency reported.
    “The only problem is–that’s not what he actually said.  As many have previously reported this is a grievous mistranslation from Farsi, having no basis in reality.
    “So let’s set the record straight for once.  I asked an authority on this subject to weigh in.  He is Muhammad Sahimi, professor of chemical engineering at the University of Southern California, and an expert on Iran’s nuclear program, quoted regularly in the pages of the NY Times and other major publications.  Prof. Sahimi is Iranian-American, but no friend of the current regime.  Here is what he wrote me, quoting a precise Farsi translation and his gloss on the text:
    “Here is the exact translation of what Ahmadinejad said:
    “The Imam [Ayatollah Khomeini] said this regime, occupying Jerusalem, must vanish from the page of time.”
    “Note that:
    “1. This is what Khomeini said. He had said it years earlier, and at that time no one took it seriously.
    “2. He said “this regime,” not Jews,
    “3. He did not say “must be destroyed,” rather “must disappear.”
    “What he meant was that Israel’s regime and political system “must” disappear, akin to what happened in the Soviet Union, where the regime disappeared without bloodshed. In fact, Khomeini, in a famous letter to Gorbachev, had made that prediction.
    “Now, people may argue that this is a hostile statement against Israel which it surely is.  But it in no way supports the claims which have been made in its name that Iran has called for the destruction of Israel, that Iran plans to use its supposed nuclear weapons against Israel, etc. None of this is true.
    “Again, one may argue whether Iran considers itself an enemy of Israel (and vice versa).  But one may not abuse, distort, or falsify the historical record as anti-Iran hawks do to support regime change, war, military assault, whatever.”
     
    The Yeshua you say you serve commands you:
    “You shall not bear false witness.”
    And his sheep hear his voice.
     
    When the Messiah returns, Israel will deport him (satire):
    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/when-the-messiah-comes-israel-will-deport-him-1.335566
     
    Gideon Levy, modern-day Amos:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html
     
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/jews-just-like-arabs-hid-weapons-in-immoral-places-1.339432
    (by Haaretz columnist Yossi Melman)
    About which above Melman article, Zionist Richard Silverstein writes (URL immediately below):
    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/01/page/0/
    Excerpt follows:
    “What I find curious about Melman’s article in the English version is that it completely omits identifying where the [Zionist arms] caches were located.  A check of the Hebrew indicates quite a
    selective, even dubious  translation job which entirely omitted this important passage from the English version:
    Members of the pre-State fighting organizations didn’t hesitate to use for this purpose childrens’ nurseries in kibbutzim and synagogues. There were, for example, two caches in the Old City’s Hurva synagogue [ed., which may explain why the Jordanians destroyed the building after they conquered East Jerusalem], one for Lehi and one for Etzel.  The Haganah also had caches in synagogues in many moshavim.  Similar use of ambulances also was made.  At the height of the 1929 riots, Manya Shohat, one of the founders of HaShomer [early Yishuv paramilitary defense group], moved a trove of weapons from Kfar Giladi to Haifa in a bus disguised as an ambulance.  She wore a nurse’s uniform and another family member became the sick person.”
    For a picture of the memorial stone placed regarding a LEHI arms cache discovered by the British authorities in the cellar and attic of an Israeli synagogue, click on the above link & scroll to the 1-27-11 blog entry entitled:
    Israel Decries Militant Arms Caches in Schools, Mosques: Pot Calls Kettle…
     
     
    “A speaker at a Muslim-Christian Association meeting in Jaffa declared, ‘We do not at all oppose the Jews. We only oppose Zionism. That is not the same thing. Zionism has no roots at all in Moses’ law. It is an invention of Herzl’s’.” (One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate, Tom Segev, op cit, pp. 105, 106).
     
     
    Ahmadinejad meets Torah-including Numbers 14:41-45 & Numbers Chapter 16-observant Jews:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q&feature=related
     
     
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/resources/onlinebooks/Holocaust%20Victims%20Accuse.pdf
    The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, by Reb Moshe Shonfeld: (The book can be viewed online for free at the above link. “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Eph. 5:11). Zionists collude with deeds of darkness, such as those disclosed in Shonfeld’s book & at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk (the collusion is a sin against the command ‘have nothing to do with’) and suppress, rather than expose, the evil (a sin), by ignoring [even Zionist Richard Goldstone’s] testimony about the evil.)
    From the book’s Foreword:
    “Since the existence of Zionism, one constant trend of thought has been the direction of Weizmann, Greenbaum, Sharett, Ben Gurion, Ehrenpreisz, Kastner, Stephen Wise, the councils in the ghettoes, and the rescue committees of the free world: ‘The only yearning was for the State. The [Jewish] people as a whole, or a segment thereof, were merely the means for the realization of a homeland. Whoever did not serve this purpose might as well not have been created’.”
    (see esp. pp. 30, 40-41, 46, 47-48, 54, 56, 58, 59, 64 (Irgun blows up Jewish refugee ship), 71 (Zionists suppress news of Hitler’s extermination), 73 (names are named), 78 (Zionists refused to help 60,000 Jews later gassed), 102, 104, 106, 107, 108 (Elie Wiesel quoted), 116 (Swedish parliament declares that Zionists opposed helping Hitler’s victims), 122 (the Nazis appointed Zionists to the Judenrat, ie council of elders).
    David Ben-Gurion stated: “If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter—-because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People.” (Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris, p. 162).
    Read Michael Dov-Ber Weissmandel’s book Min HaMaitzer (From the Depths), Jabez, written in Talmudic Hebrew, which has unfortunately not been translated into English as yet.
    Or, better yet read the following (URLs below):
    The Rudolph Kastner Trial Transcripts (in Hebrew) (straight from the Israeli government archives, Jabez):
    The Zionist Malchiel Gruenwald [you appreciate Zionists, right, Jabez?], a Holocaust survivor, accused Hungarian Zionist Rudolph Kastner (see wikipedia article on Kastner) of having collaborated with the Nazis during WWII. So the Israeli government (RK was its Ministry of Trade & Industry spokesman) sued for libel and the trial was held before an Israeli court. If memory serves, Judge Halevy presided. After a long trial, the verdict came down. Gruenwald was declared not guilty of libel, and the judge even told Kastner: “You have sold your soul to the devil.”
    Jabez, if there’s one group you obviously trust fully, it’s the Israeli government. So here it is:
    The entire transcript is available here:
    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/tohen.asp?id=409

    and here (with all the protocols):
    http://www.archives.gov.il/ArchiveGov/ArchiveNavigation.aspx?ID=30.0.50

    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/tohen.asp?id=409

    Would you care to translate it into English for us, Jabez? It’s something to think about, wouldn’t you say?

    My letter to Michael Brown on Feb.14, 2011:
    RE: The 1/11/11 Voice of Revolution MEMRI video on Arab anti-Semitism

    Information about MEMRI from Juan Cole’s blog entitled
    “Bin Laden’s Audio Threat To States”
    Posted on 11/02/2004 by Juan Cole @ juancole.com
    (Prof. Cole is fluent in both Arabic and Farsi)
    Excerpted below:
    (Please note especially paragraphs 2 & 4 below)
    ……..
    “MEMRI was founded by a retired Israeli colonel [Yigal Carmon] from military intelligence, and co-run by Meyrav Wurmser, wife of David Wurmser. David Wurmser is close to the Likud Party in Israel and served in Douglas Feith’s “Office of Special Plans” in the Pentagon, where he helped manufacture the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was linked to al-Qaeda. David Wurmser, who wants to get up American wars against both Iran and Syria, then moved over to Vice President Dick Cheney’s rump national security team.

    “MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone, and is a sophisticated anti-Arab propaganda machine. The organization cleverly cherry-picks the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials. It carefully does not translate the moderate articles. I have looked at newspapers that ran both tolerant and extremist opinion pieces on the same day, and checked MEMRI, to find that only the extremist one showed up. It would sort of be as though al-Jazeera published translations of Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and Jerry Falwell on Islam and the Middle East, but never published opinion pieces on the subject by William Beeman or Dick Bulliet.

    “MEMRI is enormously popular with strong Jewish nationalists in the United States, who often subscribe to it by email, and are being given an unbalanced view of the region as a result. In some instances the translations are not very good, but the main objection is the selectiveness of the material. MEMRI is one of a number of public relations campaigns essentially on behalf of the far rightwing Likud Party in Israel that tries to shape American perceptions of Muslims and the Middle East in a negative direction. Think tanks like the “Hudson Institute” are another (it is run by . . . Meyrav Wurmser). The Benador talent agency, which books a lot of talking heads on US television, is another. (Google it).

    “It would be just as easy to set up a translation service that zeroed in on racist and “Greater Israel” statements in the Hebrew Israeli press and made the articles available in English, while ignoring more liberal newspapers like Haaretz. If most educated Americans heard the raving against “ha-aravim” (the Arabs) that goes on among West Bank settlers, they’d be completely taken aback by the bigoted terms of reference. Much of such Likudnik discourse is not different in kind from what one hears from the Ku Klux Klan about minorities in this country.”

    “And here are excerpts from the Wikipedia article about MEMRI:
    “When founded in 1998, MEMRI’s staff of seven included three who had formerly served in military intelligence in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).[6][7] MEMRI president and founder Yigal Carmon states that MEMRI’s current staff includes “people of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths [who] hold a range of political views.”[8]
    •    Yigal Carmon — MEMRI’s founder and President. Carmon is fluent in Arabic. He served as Colonel in the Military Intelligence Directorate (Israel) from 1968 to 1988. He was Acting Head of Civil Administration in the West Bank and the adviser on Arab affairs to the civil administration from 1977 to 1982. He advised Prime Ministers Shamir and Rabin on countering Palestinian militants from 1988 to 1993. In 1991 and 1992 Carmon was a senior member of the Israeli delegation at peace negotiations with Syria in Madrid and Washington.

    “…..Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper said “My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it’s basically a propaganda operation,”[8] to “further the political agenda of Israel.”[6]
    Whitaker complained that MEMRI’s website does not “mention” Carmon’s employment for Israeli intelligence, or Meyrav Wurmser’s “extreme brand of Zionism.” Whitaker believes MEMRI is not a “trustworthy vehicle” given the founders political background.”[8]

    And I close my (as-yet-unanswered letter to Dr. Brown) with my own comments:
    “There’s nothing wrong with exposing Arab racism, but in light of our ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:16ff), & in light of the equally virulent racism of Jewish extremists alluded to in paragraph 4 of Prof. Cole’s blog above, I suggest that the godly thing to do is to ignore both Arabs who hate Jews & Jews who hate Arabs (hating Arabs is anti-Semitic, too) and instead to focus on moderate figures in both camps. (I could understand some push-back on that point if Arabs have a history of slaughtering & oppressing Jews. Germans have such a history, but Muslims not only don’t, but on the contrary they have a history of treating Jews far more humanely than Christians did.) Would African Americans in the 1950s & ‘60s have been interested in reconciling with whites if they’d been manipulated into believing that all whites thought like the KKK? Similarly, would whites have sought rapprochement if they’d been schooled to think that blacks just wanted to cut throats & rape virgins? MEMRI’s purpose in this video is evil, Dr. Brown. They want to hinder reconciliation with misrepresentations about Arabs to incite Americans’ enmity. Let’s seek peace and pursue it (Ps. 34:14),  brothers and sisters, by refusing to participate in bearing false witness against our neighbors. And who are our neighbors? Every single person on this planet is our neighbor.
    “…so that in every way [we] will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.” (Titus 2:10b) and “so that we may not offend them” [ie, unbelievers]. (Matt. 17:27a)”
     
    The one unequivocal argument (see near the top of this post) is:
    Theodor Herzl was anti-Semitic (a little-known fact, admittedly).
    Jabez adores Herzl.
    Therefore Jabez is anti-Semitic.
    For the evidence for Zionism’s anti-Semitism, see the wikipedia article I cited in my last post about Theodor Herzl, plus see above info about Kastner as well as The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, by Reb Moshe Shonfeld (in the present post, scroll up for URL and excerpts).
     
     
     
    The importance of peace in the Christian life is clear from its ubiquity in the New Testament. The word appears eighty times and in every book.
    And besides, how could we not like a people so many of whom are named Al?
     

  27. Tell me, “Jon”, where and when did you learn from the background claimed as stated in the massively detailed compolation above:

    1) Hebraic to translate personally what you posted as  http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/tohen.asp?id=409  with an assumptive and curious request for my own translation?, and so, in order to place it in your body of citations as to granting it an interpretive meaning in your own expression)?

    2) Such a passion and intense motivation to spend so much time and energy finding all the material cited>where a clearly Anti-Zionist premise is the case, and as could not be collected without a great deal of labor (in your posts claimed as extending from its stated founders on through the Israeli War of Independence)–where a considered devotion was set to the long termed task? 

    3) If you were to summarize what is posted above in a paragraph, what would it be saying to one you prior addressed as “brother”?

    4) You have cited one promise to he who became Abraham, in scripture.  Being such a prolific reader and interpreter, have you examined other references to Abraham throughout the Bible?  Would such give any credence to the positions extended of Jabez or Sheila>

    5) Where does the reality of God making covenants then apply to #4?, and how might that form the premise for the positions of Sheila and Jabez?

    6) I find a large body of determined accusation and assertion of Jewish treatment of Arab people in your allusions, none regarding claimed Jewish sources of self defense, noble intention, and exploit, as such.  Why is the body of citation so biased?

    7) If you, as a “believer” were to summarize Redemptive intention and return from Exhile to the Land of the Biblical borders of Israel and Judah in scripture for the Jewish people–from scripture, and scripture cited by various leaders of political Zionism in its own history (being so well read and all)–what would that indicate to us of discussion here? You opened your last posting asking if you have ever misquoted the Bible; I would say only selectively so. 
    8) Did God make a covenant with Hagar’s child more than promising that he would father a great nation, so as to replace what is promised Abraham in other passages in the Tenach and Brit Chadasha which you left out of your analysis?

  28. Jon,
    After addressing my numbered remarks, please discuss other curiosities in your last reply which were:
    “You speak of spiritual warfare against me”.  But I wrote about spiritual warfare for the purpose of deliverance unto the Spirit of Christ and M.K., not as to a now claimed descriptive identity of Jon I., so why would that open request of Sheila be taken personally if you are not M.K.?  A declaration of identity prior was not established other than by a name and a way and means of expression prior to your last posting.  The manner and style of expression by the way closely parallels that of M.K.
    As to openly stated requests made and posted by me around spiritual warfare prayer, and these taking on any primary ideological challenges involved of a heart allying with stated Arab perspectives viewing the founding of present day Israel in the climate of Arab rejection of the internationally validated partition of the Land at the time of the establishment of Israel–where you have stated taking these personally, as such–what would be of your disagreement as to following such a prayer process which would leave any object of such a spiritually petitioned catharsis to the care of the freedom of Christ?  Such a request then is not oppositional to anyone, but is ultimately supportive of their well being.  Such does not polarize people against people, or flesh against flesh, but requests the heavenly territory of Christ as active among the people of Christ.  Why would you take this solicitation as a personal issue?
    An author claimed as Jon I. subtitles the book you referred to as Some Parades Need Rain as: A Road Map to [What?] in Strife Torn Times?  Please expound more succintly on the aspect of the subtitle I left out as to your earlier lengthy tasks expressions, as to selective references use and how that may apply in your outlook carried into  this present dialogue (please do so after first addressing my posting, above).  How is this [What] established according to the advocacies of the New Testament?
    You have stated that you are calling me to repentanceamong the explorations of your above lengthy prose.  How would that look to you as to my present alliance with what is written about Abraham and promises extended his way and his descendants way as appear in both Testaments beyond the limited scripture you have quoted given to Abram?
    Your position on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s position on Israel seems based on a focus on a translation of one statement you accredited to him.  What did he say to the Hezbulla assembly in Southern Lebanon, to Hamas leadership in Gaza, and as activated to supplying these groups with weapons for their past aggressive behavior indeed toward Israel?  How should the sending of Iranian warships through the Suez canal for co-training with Syria be viewed in light of these realities?  Do you see Ahmadinejad and Kolmainie as moderate doves of compassion and reconciliation in the region?  How have Ahmadinejad and the current “spiritual” leader of Iran treated protest in the streets of Iranian cities?  What does this indicate to you which differs from your focus of emphases and related minimal citation on these persons given by you to date?
    Does not a Christ centered “ministry of reconciliation” have less to do with the kind of political victimization assumptions and citations you have selectively offered around the history of the conflict involved as to who occupies the land bridge between Africa, Europe, and Asia, and more to do with the soul extended opportunity of obeying and responding to the Gospel  of Jesus Christ?  Was the NT offer of true reconciliation then assumed as based on the kind of selective argumentation efforts of political strife citations you have presently tasked as expressed, would it be upheld to primarily view Arabs as victims at the hands of the relatively small Israeli population of the Middle East?   Or would such be based on what is essentially built for civilization to develop in a climate of grace, peace, quietude and community trust—where people of a similar reconciled heart to God through Christ working with other such people would yoke together in a manner and Way primarily achieved of Christ (rather than be constantly positioned for war and self outlook alone)?  Didn’t Yeshua state that sin and strife stem from the heart, and the solution to such inward states of regard is through the Gospel received in the heart? 

    Yeshua returning to the area you have focused so much on in your expostion and citation is depicted in the Revelation given to John as one who comes on the scene “clothed with a robe dipped in blood” leading heavens armies into the Middle Eastern sky, treading the “winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God”, and so for reconciling something to something.  And what would that be?

  29. Yeap, I’m out of here!

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    Hi Jabez,
     
    You asked what is my motivation for making my long posts. This is a fair question.
    My answer is:
    First:
    “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people? Therefore come out from them and be separate,’ says the Lord….Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.” II Cor 6:14 – 7:1).
     
    And also:
    Second:
    “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension [including Zionism] that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought [including thoughts about Israel & Zionism] to make it obedient to Christ”. II Cor 10:4-5
     
    I wish you well in your struggle to obey these verses, Jabez. If you continue to think that modern Israel [ie, the Israeli government] & Zionism are good/holy/righteous rather than evil/unholy/idols, then I suggest you re-read all of my posts from Feb 27th onward, and click on all the links including the youtube videos.

    You say I misquote the Bible but I’m concerned that you gave no particulars.
    .
    I don’t know Hebrew. I only speak English and some Spanish.
     
    I was going to answer Sheila’s post but apparently she is “out of here” for some reason.

  31. I have no desire to engage when the tone and the harsh words exceed my maximum allowable daily dose of heated rhetoric.  It’s one thing to enquire of each other’s take on things and to discuss these, but, it’s something different, entirely, to verbally bash and accuse each other.  So, feel free to answer my questions, but, only if you can remember who it is you represent–both of you.

  32. Jon,  Once again a question put to you, not questions past put to you, has been selectively and partially answered by you.   In my first response to your first posting I mentioned the prophetic reality active in the mix for the reestablishment and regathering of present day Israel, not being a yet established National brotherhood of Yeshua, as a converted entire Nation reality prevailing among present day Israel’s population or focus.  Yet there exists ample evidence of belief in Yeshua increasing among the population of present Israel. Your definition of Israel seems unclear at this stage, for that is a premise, not an equivocation, of identity for redemptive intention of God being in the mix of reestablishment of the chosen Nation.  

    Sheila has advanced her understanding that the “remnant” allusion of OT and NT scripture so applying to present day Israel may be interpreted to mean the regathering of the People of the Book in the Land after the ovens and genocides of Hitler and Stalin, as such (likely pictured as Jeremiah 30s picture then with Jeremiah 31 coming to be thereafter, or as to Ezekiel’s coming together of the bones in the Valley of Dry bones and what God does with that picture thereafter).   This is not unreasonable in interpretation, optimism, and promise for people of faith to so regard the present Land and People of descent from Abraham (as I mentioned, as so referenced throughout scripture, not just of the passage you selected on Abram): for the passage she prior cited of Romans 11, and its particular past, then present, and future history references of Paul therein I also past cited about the future salvation Promise extended to the Nation as is couched in references which Paul extends as to the family inclusion and exclusion historicity of the whole people of God.  This unique passage, of Romans 9-11, includes the disclosures of the revelations of God proper, to his people, grants a tree analogy of inclusion and exclusion and its workings over time, and extends the overwhelming reality of Jesus as Lord of past, then present, and future redemptive promises for all mentioned there.

    As such, if you want the references of the Tenach which clearly state a regathering first and a separation for His service (holiness achieved) second for the chosen Nation of Israel, I am sure Sheila or I can provide these for you.  If you wish to look into more of what Acts 3:21 means as to Peter’s other talk of the Return and restoration for Israel in its content and context that may be referenced as well.   In the interim of contact and interchange I cannot help but notice that you often begin most of your posted references with the premise that Arabs have been somehow victimized by the establishment of modern and post modern Israel (and that this is the only premise you accept as present in the mix of the history of the region since the Zionist movement was founded).   Let me say upfront that this may be so in some cases as a byproduct of the larger picture of the elements surrounding any such action of reestablishment of a Nation after its past demise, or of any such conflict involving many resources, organized efforts, people groups, conflict, warfare, and elements of self protection and/or self assertion of its “sides”–in so conducting the conduct and behavior of Israel’s and the Islamic nations’ own organization, establishments, effort toward goals, reactions and actions, understanding of what is at stake, resulting warfare, organization after conflict, etc.  There exists testimonial literature on both “sides” of the conflict, and much indeed about the establishment of the Zionist motivated Jewish State in its pre modern, not post modern present, formation.  Tracing nationbuilding and foundations throughout Europe, for example, as an interesting pursuit–with ever changing boarders, some migrations, some ethnic identity establishments and reestablishments, and, yes, with surrounding conflict–is one aspect of scholarship on the phenomena involved.  Such is the history of the earth and its plane.  However, our focus here is not just on evidence of intentions in some players of the play, nor other discovery, it is on the redemptive intentions of Father God toward His people.

    I do not find any balance of assumption or presentation in your approach and its stated premises, nor its citation material presented to date, nor by your selective answers to earlier questions or recent questions posed to you.  In short,  the book title stated by Jon I. has not yet come into focus in this forum as having a faithful representation of the history, facts, Biblically relevant themes, promises, and authority involved with a perspective so established in accepting the establishment of the present day nation of Israel.   In fact, your presentation has been antagonistic of its existence, and seems to entertain continuing conflict through considerations of strife and disputable matters, rather than some other Kingdom of God and His Messiah regard.

    There seems to be a gross misunderstanding of the supposition of the subtitle of Joh I.’s claimed subject matter of his claimed authorship of his claimed book in what you have posted here thus far.   Most books, to be received as purchasable and readable from most authors,  would first of all indeed represent what they are titled to be about, then, in the instances of advocacy by such a subtitle, may indeed examine the surrounding established literature as a basis of a title’s assertions.  Unfortunately here, what Jon I. has represented has not yet asserted grounds for a complete discovery, nor for the intentions of his subtitle, as such.   Instead, a way and means of engagement and biased reporting of some of the literature has been presented which has not permitted examination of a wider body of facts, or of the true premise for an advocacy of reconciliation in light of the facts or the basis of Redemptive reconciliation as is given in scripture.  What seems to be being focused upon by Jon I. is a very partial and exclusive perspective of collected and scattered accounts and opinions on the history of the establishment of the present nation of Israel.

    For example, the responder here begins many of his remarks and statements with the assumption of a Jewish predatory intention in founding modern Israel, not yet supported as the bigger picture of scholarship from a Biblical perspective of Redemptive Promise (as the basis for example of the Prophets expressions) might establish.  For example, Jon I has ignored the present day post modern leaders of Iran  development of long range and short range missles, buildup of its military enterprise, acute channeling of resources into weaponry and nuclear partical acceleration mechanisms, its support of the taking over of nearby nations by its supported politically militant groups and has not yet alluded to any content or perspective on how “reconciliation” as a spiritual and political force will be advanced or proposed as active in the mix to lead to Joh I’s claimed subtitle being his subject matter.  So far a fracturing and fragmentingly biased picture of comprehension of both modern and post modern Israel’s foundational details have been advanced here: without the navagaable organization of any principles, themes or topics by which a reader may get from there to here or here to there regarding a claimed book’s title being about reconciliation.  You have shared a limiting and limited analysis which cites some opinion and record by some of a particular outlook.

    This is frankly confusing and dissipating of understanding what it is Jon I. would do or hopes to see regarding the picture he has claimed he painted then needing another direction for positive results.  It is clear that pleasing all the people involved is not a basis for his subtitle, where an antiZonist foundational viewpoint is developed as the primary principle so far examined.  How does Jon I propose to change the situation for the better, in the interest and of the way of his subtitle?  This may be a better way of putting forth the concerns raised from the limited and limiting scholarship advanced thus far in its stead.

    As to charting and advancing Jon I.’s claimed title and book subtitle stated thematic intention, why is behind the scenes redemptive development in the Land of the People of the Book not explored at all in Jon I’s postings here?  Where are the topics, themes, notions, and gathering of intention statements which override the strong sense of scattered and dissipated thought development thus far made?  How is the presentation then presented, organized, and developed so as to persuade any reader that a consideration of the selective literature established around the history of Zionism, the Return, the reestablishment of the chosen Nation, and its and its neighbors conduct in the establishment of modern Israel may play into a greater consideration of what God is up to indeed behind the scenes?  And, as to the question which Jon I has apparently supposed as central to the anomally and presentation of the existence of a Jewish state in a crescent arena: as to how righteousness, mercy, and faithfulness will be in play in the Nation’s considerations and efforts toward its establishments.  Over these concerns Jon has examined what some founders of the present Nation believed, what some did, and as is reported and viewed by some Arab literature on some.   Where are the citations of how a “remant” he has referred to, as is put in doubt literally being in the people of physical Israel, or of a spiritual component in Christ or of the standards of the law of Moses, has codeveloped along with these other considerations of Jon I.’s present preoccupations and foci?   He has primarily discovered injustice, predatory intention, and no possibility of noble intention in the regathering and reestablishment of present day Israel, and, as such, he has concluded that it must be not of God, nor of any other intention than that of a selfish and predatory one.  If the desire is for what his stated subtitle is, is so, why are not his ideas and advocacies, plans and presentations offering steps or motives for such advancement?  If seeing the existence of present Israel as only founded on unrigteous actions and presumptions, he then can make and has made a case for the contempt for its present existence, as has the Satan in the Bible through others throughout the history of the Jewish people on many recorded occasions.  His kind of reconciliation then is very unclear where the People of the Book are in his view not entitled to the Promise of the Land being their land (and, as the Prophets declare, to become a People and Land under God).

     I submit that the Kingdom of God and His Christ–the true Messiah sent of the chosen Nation–are not really in focus for Jon I., and that a rabbit trail of intention to uphold a biased and contempuous viewpoint negating present day Israel, employing blinders of discovery on what is going on with Islam in the Middle East and in hearts involved with it, has in fact captured the mind and heart of postings made here in the name of Jon I.  I am open to being persuaded otherwise.  Mostly though, I remain open to the working of God’s Plans of Redemption, as mentioned to all descendants of Abraham of the Bible’s Covenant Promises.   To date Jon has placed conditional Mosaic covenant conformity ideals upon the People of the chosen Nation; will he permit the actions of the Kingdom of Grace and Truth to prevail in the Land of the Book comes in question by what he has selectively cited to date?  Claiming Yeshua as his own, and earlier of Jabez and Sheila, will he permit the opporunity and plans of God to work Yeshua faith into the present history of modern and post modern Israel?  Is Jon willing for either template standard, that of the law of Moses, or that of the New and Living Way of Yeshua to be given time, room, and possibility to work what is promised of the Prophets of Old?

    These would include those of inclusion of who Israel is and has been (according to stated godly intentions of promise and hope in scriptural covenant contexts), and those who believers among the nations are and have been.  I find no pattern of eqivocation as Jon I. has presented it to be of the foci and presentations to date of Sheila, or Jabez, for a selective eye has not seen nor the heart beheld what are God’s intentions for those who turn to him, for the Jew first and the Greek also.  We cannot reduce the Promises of God to an argument, or principles of argumentation, or a highly selective scholarship on the phenomena of the resestablishment and regathering of Jews into the Land of the People of the Book.

    Lets be at least intellectually honest here, Jon I., seeing what you have permitted to date, can your heart let go and let God Father modern Israel according to its own restoration promises asked of Jesus in Acts 1:6, and by the disciples which led to the Mt. of Olives discourse (which indeed includes Jesus own mention of Daniel.  THat is the Lord of History citing Daniel in his own and for his own context on Israel, the Temple, and its People’s destiny, as such).

  33. Sheila,  It will be established, in time, if I have bashed or redirected inquiry here as to discovery and intention.   In the meantime I request that you pray, and read my prior two postings for what they say and advocate.

  34. In Romans 10:20, Paul wrote: “And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”  Will Jon give room for this to be the case for regathered Israel?  Whether Joh I. does or does not God’s Will will prevail.  He has upheld his word above his Name, lest He be worshiped as an idol.  Let us avoid idols.

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    Hi Jabez,
     
    On a positive note, I agree that more and more Israelis are turning to Christ and that this is very encouraging. Also thanks for not putting my name in quotation marks.
     
    I’m deeply impressed by the spirit of the Torah-observant Jews in the video I mentioned on March 11th:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q&feature=related
    If you haven’t yet watched it, please do so. They are so CLASSY!! I would love to spend time with them!
     
    You mentioned Jeremiah 30 and 31. In Jer 31:19 Ephraim says “After I strayed , I repented.”
    Jer 30:11c says: “[God] will discipline you [ie, Israel] but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.” In Luke 13:34, which you referred to previously, Yeshua says “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” In Rev 22:15, we read “Outside [of the New Jerusalem] are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Considering all of these passages, your implication that the Mosaic law is not important to God anymore, and that we are in a time of grace [yes, we are] but grace only [no, we’re not] isn’t supported by the God you say you serve.
    If Yeshua felt the way you say He does, he wouldn’t have said in Luke 13 someone ‘killed the prophets,’ or ‘you were not willing’. By your lights, he wouldn’t have cared what they did, it’s all good, let go to the heart of father God, etc. or so you suggest. By your mistaken perspective, it doesn’t matter whether either the remnant Israel that’s nestled within modern Israel or the Diaspora Jews (or Gentiles like me (?!!?)) repent like Ephraim or the OT Jews refrain from killing prophets or are unwilling [ie resistant to Yeshua’s tender wishes] or misuse words or love falsehood or etc. Nor does it apparently matter to you if modern Israel in total (including saved and unsaved people) repents or etc or etc. It seems to me that you’re requiring God to be unholy towards modern Israel. And if this is an epoch of grace not law why are you so harsh with me? You should let go and let God and dive into the Father’s heart of grace or some such way you say it. And in practice repeatedly you misuse words like ‘Israel’ and you’re partial (a sin) and don’t listen (a sin—James 1:19), (nothing so far about Gen 3 and the serpent’s claiming to know God’s mind, nothing about Exod 32:29b or Isa 29:20-21 —you have a nice line in making a man out to be guilty with a word— nothing about Herzl’s and other political Zionists’ contempt for Jews —as distinct from Asher Ginsberg & the cultural Zionists who did love Jews—-how could you both love Jews (this is good) and embrace an anti-Semite (bad!) simultaneously??!!—nothing about the sin of partiality, nothing about Gen 12 meaning not what you claim but what it actually says, nothing about the distinction God makes in the Tenach between the righteous & the evil Israelites, it’s a long list, did I mention partiality?—- and you don’t repent. What was Ephraim’s attitude, Jabez?
     
    You’re quite right that I don’t respond to a lot of your points, but I’m confident that this is OK with you because you don’t respond to most of mine.
     
    You asked how I thought the current situation in the Middle East should change. I appreciate the question. In my book, on page 102, it says:
     
    “A statesmanlike response [by the United States] to the September 11th attacks would’ve been:
     
    1) a humble apology to the world for all our [ie, America’s] innocent bloodshed, because the standard we hold others to will be used by God to judge us (Matthew 7:2);
    2) the Israeli government would be required to remove all settlers from the Occupied Territories within six months;
    3) a truth and reconciliation commission, chaired by Norway or some other neutral party, would be established to collect evidence of, and grant restitution for, documented cases of Israeli crimes against Palestinians since 1948, provided the victims permanently surrender the right of return to Israel proper.”
    Some Parades Need Rain: A Road Map to Reconciliation in Strife-torn Times, by Jon Ivey (available on amazon).
     
    You claim (and I’ve given evidence —that you’ve ignored— that you’re mistaken) to know God’s heart. You claim to know things about my book too, but you’re overconfident in your judgment there too.
     
    There’s quite a broad range of misrepresentations in your posts, including that I don’t want reconciliation, that I misquote the Bible (I asked for examples but you didn’t offer any), that Israel’s founding fathers weren’t predatory (try reading Ilan Pappe), that my approach is unbalanced, that God —since 1917— is unconcerned about how his will is carried out, that I have no focus or controlling basis (see II Cor 6:14-7:1 & II Cor 10:4-5 which I mentioned the other day), that I’m not the author of my book (you say ‘claimed author’), that I don’t want Israel to continue in existence (but see my March 9th post, fourth paragraph for proof this is untrue), that I’m a reactive ex-Orthodox Jew when I’m actually a WASP, etc.
     
    Most of the Muslim violence and increasing power of Iran is in response to prior Israeli— and in the case of Iran, American aggression—2 US aircraft carriers next to Iran, US troops to the east & west, threats to attack by Bush, etc–and is proportionately less than the Israeli violence that preceded it. If this seems outlandish to you, it’s because you haven’t examined Sharatt’s diary entry, Gideon Levy’s Haaretz interview, Mr Giladi & other Zionists like Goldstone, etc, etc.
     
    And of course there’s your unretracted slanderous accusation that I’m anti-Semitic.
    But you like the anti-Semite Theodor Herzl.
    1 Cor. 5:11 “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is…an idolater or a slanderer…. With such a man do not even eat.”
    Your God is probably Yeshua, but the state of Israel supersedes His voice, making you an idolater.
    Titus 3:10 -11“Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
    In order to remain in Yeshua’s will, I’ll have to shun you, Jabez. See you in heaven!
    This dialogue between you and me is now over.

  36. Hi Sheila,

    I’ll try to respond to your posts later.

  37. It is apparent that the concerns raised about discovery are confirmed.  Orientation to Kingdom reality has been confused by something else altogether.

  38. Perry Mason used to be popular when truth and justice were concerns in the hearts of the American public.  His approach to discovery in court rooms where his clients futures stood in the balance was to make statements about the accusers of his clients, or other possible guilty parties accountable for what his clients were accused of.  In doing this his approach was often to state something as absolutely the case, which often was altered by the events of discovery and subsequent disclosure as a result of the all encomapssing voracity of the content his statements made ithrough his approach.  Here both Perry Mason and D. Bonhoeffer have been considered in my own as to getting at the heart of what Jon is upholding as such. 

  39. If the Israelis lay down their arms their will be an instant genocide and bloodbath.  If the Arab states did there would be peace.

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    You suggest that Muslims are the seed of Satan. I don’t think Satan surrenders to Jesus ALL non-Muslim lands & says ‘OK I’ll just have my evil kingdom exclusively in Islamic countries. Although I do agree that Islam is a false religion, Satan doesn’t just stick to their territory. He is in Europe, in Asia, Australia, etc, even right here in America, yes even here in the Bible Belt. He’s in my city & in yours. He roams the whole world– not just Saudi Arabia, etc —seeking to devour. Doesn’t the Word say that Satan entered Judas Iscariot? And ‘Get thee behind me Satan’? Right there in Jesus’ inner circle, the Twelve, right there in the very heart of he who at least the Catholics call the first Pope, Peter, there was Satan.
     
    We should not look at Muslims primarily as our enemies—you say Bin Laden funded 9/11. Did he? What’s the evidence? You probably believe I’m naive in even asking this question, but naive or not naive, I’d like to know. If we are learning from the same politicians who previously lied (they said that UBL did 9/11—a lie—see the FBI charge sheet against UBL), that now we’re learning that the lying pols changed their story to ‘ok we were wrong before, the FBI now says UBL didn’t DO 9/11 but…. at least he financed it’. Also, come to think of it, they actually never STATED UBL didn’t do 9/11. I just happened to read a quote from an FBI spokesman named Rex Tomb to that effect, which led me to fbi.gov site. In fact, many of my fellow-right wingers STILL say UBL did 9/11. First why don’t the pols apologize & repent for lying about UBL committing it (lying is a sin)? Also why didn’t the pols apologize for lying about the alleged threat by Hussein against us (Bush later admitted Saddam had no connection to 9/11)? Why no remorse? Are they good or are they evil pols? We murdered many many thousands of innocent Iraqis, Sheila. A Christian nation would’ve repented & turned away from sin. And secondly why are we believing the same liars (ie pols & pundits) who now say UBL funded it? Now if I’m wrong in believing he didn’t fund it, please do set me straight!
     
    Isn’t it a bit naive to believe pundits who have a track record of dishonesty?
     
    Why do you suppose, friend, that I mentioned Sharatt earlier? Again:
    In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt’s personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: “[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no — it must — invent [notice that word invent, Sheila] dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge…And above all — let us hope [“HOPE” !??!?—I thought the poor lil ol’ peaceful Israelis wanted, like Rodney King, to just get along] for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space.” Quoted in Livia Rokach, “Israel’s Sacred Terrorism.” (boldface by Jon)
    Even in 1948, the Arab armies that invaded the Holy Land, did so in response to Israeli massacres of civilians & incipient ethnic cleansing, & mostly only fought against Israel in the part of the Holy Land that the UN had allotted to the Arabs. They never sought to drive the Jews into the sea—a bald-faced lie! See:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1948
    Excerpts (with emphasis added by Jon):
    “During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.” “Our Roots Are Still Alive” by the People Press Palestine Book Project

    In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the [UN] partition resolution.” British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”
     
    “By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’…Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’” Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”
     
    Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how ‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive…Arabs began to flee in terror…Hagana [an Israeli force which later formed the nucleus of the IDF] was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’…The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions [the provocations] which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states’ intervention.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
     
    Muslims are generally— not exclusively— but generally –our & Israel’s victims, not our enemies, for instance, in Lebanon (five times invaded), in Iraq (invaded 2003), in Afghanistan (invaded 2001). Sheila, why is the US justified in invading Afghanistan? If UBL didn’t do 9/11, it doesn’t pass the smell test to assert falsely in 2001 that he did, then invade Afghanistan, then find out later [I discovered the FBI charge sheet against UBL in September 2010. Don’t know how long it had been there] it wasn’t true, then not repent, then invent the accusation that he financed 9/11? Beside, for the sake of argument, suppose he did finance it (am waiting for evidence, not accusation)? Does financing terrorism justify an invasion? If Irish-Americans financed the Irish Republican Army (& they DID!!), can Britain invade the US??!!?? Is THAT ok with you, sister? Since the US did finance the MEK (Mujehaddin e- Khalq) who ARE anti-Iranian-govt terrorists, according to the State Dept!!—can Iran justifiably invade the US of A, Sheila? Jiminy cricket! ;););)
     
    Muslims haven’t invaded a Christian country since they threatened Vienna in (I believe) 1783 or so. But the US & Israel treat Muslim territory quite differently. I’m asking that we examine the historical record. Hamas after 11/4/08 asked Israel to renew the previous ceasefire (the one Israel violated on 11/4/08 by whacking 6 Hamas fighters [note the provocation, Sheila]—the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel website even showed a graph that Hamas had honored the ceasefire from the ceasefire-agreement-signing in 6/08 until 11/4/08). Then a barrage of Qassams by Hamas (killing no one) after 11/04/08’s violation by I. Next was an offer by H to renew ceasefire w/ I but latter responded with [its revenge] Cast Lead, killing 1,300 to1,400 Gazans (versus 13 Israelis killed during Cast L). Other historical examples: when Nasser offered peace in 1967, Israel responded w/ the Six Day War, when Arafat offered peace to I in 1982, I responded w/ its Lebanese invasion (one of five (five!!) Israeli invasions of Lebanon, starting 1978, then in 1982, 1993, 1996 & 2006). In 1982, 20,000 Lebanese civilians died during Israel’s invasion. How’s that for being interested in Arafat’s peace offer? If this is surprising or unbelievable to you Sheila, why haven’t you watched the Cast Lead youtube video yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk
    There’s PLENTY of info about this point of Muslims (primarily) being victims. See books by historians Benny Morris (Israeli), Ilan Pappe (Israeli), Norman Finkelstein. See youtube for lots of info. Everyone should be quick to listen, according to Jas. 1:19. Also see:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/
     
    See my above posts for links too. I’m not naive. I’m honest!
     
    Please read Luke 16:15. Substitute the word ‘America’ in the verse for the initial ‘you’ as in [America] are the ones who justify themselves, etc etc. But we Americans falsely justify ourselves sometimes. We are sometimes worse than those you call the seed of Satan! We murdered 80,000 Japanese civilians in a single night of firebombing in March 1945!! Jiminy!!! Except for Iraqi & Afghan Muslims killing our troops (WE INVADED THEM!!), when have Muslims killed Christians in the last 2 generations or so? But we fill mass graves with Muslims without prior provocation (approx 200,000 in Iraq alone) & torture & falsely accuse of terrorism. (Why did Bush release 500 of the 700 or so Guantanamo prisoners? Because we’d lied about them before detaining them.)
     
    I think it’s a mistake, Sheila, to assume that because a remnant of Jews survived Hitler’s ovens, that therefore that group is the Biblical remnant. I still say the Biblical remnant is the church universal. Now on the other hand, let’s suppose I’m mistaken. Suppose for argument sake, modern Israel is the Biblical remnant as you say. Then you’re asking me to believe that the very same God who was very angry & even punished Israel’s sin in Exod 32:27-29 & Num 14:41-45 (please read about their small (in the eyes of some) sin in Num 14) & in Num the whole 16th chapter, would be unconcerned about all the following: some of modern Israel’s founders were atheists or uninterested in Judaism or both (eg Max Nordau, Herzl, Ben Gurion), they committed horrible atrocities (see above & my other posts), they lied , they stole, raped, destroyed property, etc. They are some of the most gifted liars ever. They turn victims into aggressors & vice versa. If you object that God commanded them to take the land in modern times, then where’s the command in Scripture? If you say, the Bible speaks of Israel returning to the land, then (1) are you SURE the references are to the 1900’s? (2) Couldn’t the verses be about their return after their Babylonian exile? (I think you were mistaken @ one point in your post, some of the prophets prophesied before the exile (eg, see Jer 1:3).
    And finally, do lovers of modern Israel participate in Korah’s rebellion? I hope not. “He “became insolent…” “You have gone too far [Korah preached to Moses]! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them” (Num. 16:1b, 3b). But [the anti-Israel?] Moses answered, in part “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy…You Levites have gone too far!” (vss. 5, 7b). “The [anti-Israel?] Lord said to Moses and Aaron, ‘Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once’” (vs. 21). Note especially verse 41, Sheila: “The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against the [anti-Semites?] Moses and Aaron. ‘You have killed the Lord’s people,’ they said.” To which the Lord responded in vs. 45: “Get away from this [presumptuous? proto-Zionist?] assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And vs. 49 from the Word reads: “But 14,700 people died from the [anti-Zionist?] plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.”
    Friend, I hope you’ll agree that Korah and the other insolent proto-Zionists in Numbers 16 were absolutely wrong. I say how could genetic 20th century unbelieving Israelis be the remnant? Politics doesn’t make morals disappear.

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    Sheila,
     
    You mentioned praying for the peace of Jerusalem. It’s important that everybody pray for the peace of every city, in my opinion, yes including Jerusalem, the site of the future New Jerusalem. But although I’m not sure why you brought it up, I think possibly that Jer 7:3-11 would be useful in this regard. The point being it’s wrong morally to do evil like stealing, oppressing aliens (one village in the Negev has been demolished about 11 (?) times by Israel, not that this is Jerusalem of course but still the following point remains), murder, & then trust in words like the ‘temple of the Lord’ or ‘the peace of Jerusalem’ and then “say [see verse 10b] ‘we are safe…to do all these detestable things’. “Has this house, which bears my Name, become a house of robbers?” (vs. 11). Sadly, it has done so, quite literally. Recently the authorities ordered an Arab family in East Jerusalem to let a Jewish family take over one of their rooms, although the Arabs have the property deed since the 1950s:
    http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2011/03/palestinian-family-in-east-jerusalem.html
    http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2011/03/israeli-police-hand-out-15-eviction.html
    http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/12/how-israel-lobby-engineered.html
     
    Also see Jer 7:23, 28; & chap 8:5-9, 11:
    “Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?” (8: 9b).
    “’Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.” (vs 11b)
    And ch 9:3.

  42. Jon,
    While I’m catching up on the homework you gave me to do, I’ll submit these for your consideration.

     
    The Hollow Sound of Anti-Israel Protests

    Filed under Israel & The Jewish People, News on January 7th, 2009 by Michael L. Brown
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

     

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#a  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html

    “They lay crafty plans against Your People… they say: ‘come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more’.” – Tehilim 83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4).
     

    The following comments are taken from the same site under this heading:

    Monday, December 24, 2007
     

    The Origin of Peoples : Myths and Facts Part II.
    The land called “Palestine”

     
    “There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”.
    - Joseph Farah, “Myths of the Middle East” -
    Let us hear what other Arabs have said:
    “There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it”.
    - Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -
    “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not”.
    - Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -
    “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria”.
    - Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -
    Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:
    “The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years”.
    The preceding declarations by Arab politicians have been done before 1967, as they had not the slightest knowledge of the existence of any Palestinian people. How and when did they change their mind and decided that such people existed? When the State of Israel was reborn in 1948 c.e., the “Palestinians” did not exist yet, the Arabs had still not discovered that “ancient” people. They were too busy with the purpose of annihilating the new Sovereign State and did not intend to create any Palestinian entity, but only to distribute the land among the already existing Arab states. They were defeated. They attempted again to destroy Israel in 1967, and were humiliated in only six days, in which they lost the lands that they had usurped in 1948. In those 19 years of Arab occupation of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, neither Jordan nor Egypt suggested to create a “Palestinian” state, since the still non-existing Palestinians would have never claimed their alleged right to have their own state… Paradoxically, during the British Mandate, it was not any Arab group but the Jews that were known as “Palestinians”!
    What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:
    “There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel”.
    - Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -
    “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people”.
    - Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -
    “As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today’s Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today’s Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants”.

    - Walid Shoebat, an “ex-Palestinian” Arab -

    And, here’s one other from VOR:

    http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/2009/02/04/israel-and-the-peace-process/

     

  43. Jon,

    Are you also “blueray 1969″?

  44. The notion of remnant in scripture can be applied to the WWII and post WWII exodus of Jews from Europe and the Middle East to Israel.  It can also be applied to those now in Israel proper who have turned to Yeshua for their justification and salvation.  As Paul wrote not all who call themselves Israel (then presently at that time of writing) are Israel.  The Israel of God is then twice qualified by Paul.  1) as being racially Israel, 2) as being of group 1, then being of faith in the Jewish Messiah, sent as appointed for the chosen Nation, Yeshua/Jesus.   

    And, with this premise Paul goes on in Romans 11 to mention the Plan of Redemption for all Israel, after the full number of Gentiles come into the fold of faith.  It is clear and simple enough to thus understand that the satan of the Bible will indeed attempt to foil God’s Plan, for Zech. clearly establishes that the One who they have pierced will cause mourning in the Land of the People of the Book, as coinciding with His defense of the Land of the People of the Book.

    We must recognize, in the former video proof mention I made, that a fallen angel leads the ritual religion of hatred, the sword, and insistence of Islam, as has been seen descending on its central focal point placement, in Mecca, and is not ascending to the throne of God found in the person of Yeshua Ha Meshiac of Israel.  The satan is into counterfeit truth and attempts at a self replication of the reality he once knew in heaven, when at the time serving the Father of the family of God–only where he himself, and those of allegiance to him are exhalted, not our servant model Lord and Savior.  In this respect it is significant that the fallen one does not hide his self disclosure over the ritual site at Mecca.  His purpose is to subsitute himself and his own for the chosen One and Place for the chosen One’s future government, i.e. Jerusalem.  The New Jerusalem will be a fact of present Jerusalem when Jesus returns and restores the promised Davidic Kingdom there.   

    The time is short; events will now speed up for the satan knows the time is short.  Read Daniel, where the events leading up to the establishment of the Promised restored Kingdom among the Jews of Israel play out in the Islamic and other insistent forces worlds of Islam and Russia, North Africa, and Asia–as from the plan of the satan.   Do not be discouraged about the so-called Middle East conflict, for God knows its outcome, over time.  Israel will be tested, but not uprooted; and the mercy of God, in Christ will be an inclusive one, not without hope even for the descendants of Esau and Ishmael, when they turn to the Mercy of Israel’s Messiah, in time (Ezkl. 47:21-23). 

    In the meantime to stand with Islam is to stand with the satan, whose forces will be defeated, and will come to deceive not the nations for a thousand year restorative rule of Yeshua, the true Messah of Israel, and kinsman-redeemer of the chosen city for His coming government.   In the interim our faith, his Promises, and our Hope will be refined, tested, and proven as abiding in He who was, and is, and is to come.

  45. ‘Get ready, get ready, get ready for the Lord to move.  Get ready, get ready, get ready for the Lord to prove, prove His Word, prove His plan, become the redeemer promised in the Land.  Get ready, get ready, get ready for the Lord to Move.’  ==song of the Spirit among those revived.   Were not the days soon ahead shortened, even the elect would be deceived about the Plan of God in Christ.  He will sum up all things in Him!

    So, Jon, being under Christ, being in Christ, becomes vital to being included in His Plans.  You have gone to great lengths to stand against that Plan.  Repent, turn, and be refreshed in the purpose of God established in Christ–Israel’s past, present, and future Messiah.

  46. To the moderator:

    Are you not going to publish my response?  I submitted it twice.

    Thanks,

  47. Another question:  Why is the email address of reponses coming from an unknown and different address other than the usual?

  48. As to what is happening at this juncture, see also the You Tube lead in string “Angels in Mecca”, beginning with the 2008 self disclosure there.  These fallen ones are getting bolder by the minute.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4YoZ1ouo4

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    You asked:
    Are you also “blueray 1969″?
     
    No.
     
    You referred me to some sources, including the Jewish Virtual Library.
     
    Wikipedia says:
     
    “Jewish Virtual Library (JVL) is an online encyclopedia published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (the AICE). ….. The AICE is a non-profit 501(c)(3), “non-partisan” organization established “to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance.” It is a member of the Israel on Campus Coalition. Its Executive Director is foreign policy analyst Mitchell G. Bard, a former editor of the Near East Report, a weekly newsletter published by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee….” (end quote)
     
    AIPAC is a pro-Israel lobbying group. Other pro-Israel figures include Israel’s Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, Israeli P.M. Sharatt, Naiem Giladi, P.M. Ben Gurion, Richard Goldstone in the youtube video, etc etc that I’ve previously quoted/alluded to. Would you like me to pay attention to pro-Israel commentators? I’ll do so when you do the same. Fair enough, friend?
    (Months ago I read an article from the Jewish Virtual Library about the 1967 War, when Israel attacked the USS Liberty by air & sea, killing 34 Americans & injuring 170-plus on 6/8/67. That JVL article was full of untruths. Admiral Moorer’s 2004 report on the attack concluded it was a war crime. The following article was written by Adm. Moorer himself:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-moorer.html
    Excerpt:
    “Despite claims by Israeli intelligence that they confused the Liberty with a small Egyptian transport, the Liberty was conspicuously different from any vessel in the Egyptian navy. It was the most sophisticated intelligence ship in the world in 1967. With its massive radio antennae, including a large satellite dish, it looked like a large lobster and was one of the most easily identifiable ships afloat.”
     
    Another report on the attack is :
    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/files/War%20Crimes%20Report.pdf
    Excerpt from footnotes 42 & 43 (Ward Boston, Jr. was the chief counsel to the Naval Board of Inquiry investigating the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty :
     
    42 Declaration of Ward Boston, Jr., Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.), Exhibit 25
    “18. Admiral Kidd also told me that he had been ordered to “put the lid” on everything having to do with
    the attack on USS Liberty. We were never to speak of it and we were to caution everyone else involved that
    they could never speak of it again.
    19. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript
    that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington.”

    43 Declaration of Ward Boston, Jr., Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.), Exhibit 25
    “16. I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and
    Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken
    identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
    17. Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down
    with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court’s
    findings.”
     
     
     
    You cited Walid Shoebat. A quick check of wikipedia shows this:
     
    Supposed bombing of Bank Leumi
    Shoebat claimed that he threw a bomb at Bank Leumi, an Israeli bank, in Bethlehem.[1] However, the bank has no record of the incident. Also, Israeli newspapers at that time did not report any such incident.[3] The authenticity of Shoebat’s account has been disputed by many sources.
    The Jerusalem Post also disputed the authenticity of Shoebat’s account of his terrorist history. The paper stated that Shoebat claimed bombing has been rejected both by Bank Leumi, which claims no such attack took place, and by Shoebat’s own relatives. The Post said that Shoebat had contradicted himself on this matter. When, in 2008, the Jerusalem Post asked him if there were news reports about the bombing, he said,[1]
    I don’t know. I didn’t read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days.
    But, in 2004, he had told Britain’s Sunday Telegraph,
    I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.
    During a telephone interview with the Post, Shoebat was unable to recall the date, or the time of year, of the attack. While Shoebat says he was pressured by teachers to adopt an extreme Islamic philosophy. The Jerusalem Post article reported that his uncle, who still lives in Bethlehem said that religion did not play a major role in his education, and that he had actually left Bethlehem by age 16.[1]
    On April 9, 2008, Shoebat responded to the Jerusalem Post‘s skepticism on that paper’s op-ed page. He wrote that the Jerusalem Post had been duped and that the sources they interviewed who disputed his own account of his upbringing, including his relatives, were themselves involved in terrorism, and want to see him discredited. He also claims that reporter did not interview reputable witnesses offered to him who would confirm the bombing operation of Bank Leumi.[4] He also posted a response on his website.
    ……… Academic professors and others who have heard Shoebat and the two other evangelists he sometimes lectures with (Zachariah Anani and Kamal Saleem) complain they are too old to have been recruited for Islamic terror as teenagers since the ideology of Islamic jihad attacks “only became prevalent in the late 1980s,” and the men are all middle age. Skeptics question as to why Shoebat has been able to retain his US citizenship if it is true that he was involved in acts of terror.[3]
    The Jerusalem Post states that Shoebat has profited from his story that he was formerly a Muslim terrorist, but has rejected Islam for Christianity.[1]
    When the Post asked Shoebat whether the Walid Shoebat Foundation is a registered charity, he said that it was registered in Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania State Attorney’s office said it had no record of such a charity. When asked again, Shoebat claimed it was registered under a different name, but that he was not aware of the Foundation’s registered name, nor any other details, which were known only to his manager. Dr. Joel Fishman, of the Allegany County Law Library in Pennsylvania, expressed doubts Walid Shoebat Foundation’s donation process. He noted that if the money were being given to a registered charity, the charity would have to make annual reports to the state and federal government.[1] (end quote)
     
    And are we supposed to justify what happened because some say the natives were ‘Arab’ but others say they were ‘Palestinian’?
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#british
    Excerpts:
    Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said ‘all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

    “In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt… David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselvesThe country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’… The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.” (emphasis added)
    … “In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine…After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.
    Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced ‘absentee landlords’ in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances).” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.” (end quote)

  50. My response to the youtube video on Finklestein.

     
    Is This a Man Who Sheds Light, or Simply Sets Fires?
    “In his more reflective moments Mr. Finkelstein demonstrates an acute analytical intelligence and even an inkling of humor. “Speaking as a devout atheist, thank God in his Almighty wisdom that he made us mortal,” he says.”
     
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Norman_Finkelstein

    “Finkelstein has written of his parents’ experiences during World War II. His mother, Maryla Husyt Finkelstein, grew up in Warsaw, Poland, survived the Warsaw Ghetto, the Majdanek concentration camp, and two slave labor camps. Her first husband died in the war. She considered the day of her liberation as the most horrible day of her life, as she realized that she was alone, her parents and siblings gone. Norman’s father, Zacharias Finkelstein, was a survivor of both the Warsaw Ghetto and the Auschwitz concentration camp.[5] After immigrating to the United States, his father became a factory worker, while his mother was a homemaker. Finkelstein’s mother was an ardent pacifist. Both his parents died in 1995.[6]

    “Finkelstein grew up in New York City. In his forthcoming memoir, Finkelstein recalls his strong youthful identification with the outrage that his mother, witness to the genocidal atrocities of World War II, felt at the carnage wrought by the United States in Vietnam. One childhood friend recalls his mother’s “emotional investment in left-wing humanitarian causes as bordering on hysteria.”[7] He had ‘internalized (her) indignation’, a trait which he admits rendered him ‘insufferable’ when talking of the Vietnam War, and which imbued him with a ‘holier-than-thou’ attitude at the time which he now regrets.[8] But Finkelstein regards his absorption of his mother’s outlook — the refusal to put aside a sense of moral outrage in order to get on with one’s life — as a virtue. Subsequently, his reading of Noam Chomsky played a seminal role in tailoring the passion bequeathed to him by his mother to the necessity of maintaining intellectual rigor in the pursuit of the truth.[5]

    “He completed his undergraduate studies at Binghamton University in New York in 1974, after which he studied at the École Pratique des Hautes Études in Paris. He went on to earn his Master’s degree in political science from Princeton University in 1980, and later his PhD in political studies, also from Princeton. Finkelstein wrote his doctoral thesis on Zionism, and it was through this work that he first attracted controversy. Before gaining academic employment, Finkelstein was a part-time social worker with teenage dropouts in New York. He then taught successively at Rutgers University, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College and, until recently, taught at DePaul University in Chicago. According to the New York Times he left Hunter College in 2001 “after his teaching load and salary were reduced” by the college administration.[7]

    “Beginning with his doctoral thesis at Princeton, Finkelstein’s career has been marked by controversy. A self-described “forensic scholar,” he has written sharply critical academic reviews of several prominent writers and scholars whom he accuses of misrepresenting the documentary record in order to defend Israel’s policies and practices. His writings, noted for their support of the Palestinian cause,[2] have dealt with politically charged topics such as Zionism, the demographic history of Palestine and his allegations of the existence of a “Holocaust Industry” that exploits the memory of the Holocaust to further Israeli and financial interests. Citing linguist and political activist Noam Chomsky as an example, Finkelstein notes that it is “possible to unite exacting scholarly rigor with scathing moral outrage,”[5] and supporters and detractors alike have remarked on the polemical style of Finkelstein’s work.[1]9] Its content has been praised by eminent historians such as Raul Hilberg and Avi Shlaim,[9] as well as Chomsky.

    “Finkelstein has described himself as “an old-fashioned communist,” in the sense that he “see(s) no value whatsoever in states.”[10]

    Jon, I wouldn’t exactly take the musings of a professed “atheist and a communist” to heart when interpreting Holy Scripture. But, apparently you do. What contribution can a man, the likes of Finkelstein add to the Word? I’m not saying atheists and communists cannot contribute anything worthwhile to humanity, but, they certainly can’t be relied on to give an unbiased opinion on matters of a Scriptural nature. So, let’s separate the wheat from the chaff, can we? The article above denotes the particulars, and I feel certain there were others, of what events shaped Finkelstein’s life and we can see the outworkings of his particular view on things. He has never had an encounter with the Living God and with the Scriptures that I can detect. And, do you study the Bible? Because I can’t help but see that you favor the NT verses and have not sited any prophesies that speak to your position that the Jews do “not” belong in Judea as is “commanded”, you say; when the Lord says through His prophets what will be “in the latter days.” Is not a prophesy a “command” of sorts that “not one word will fail”? If the Lord declares it, will it not find completion?
     
    I rather appreciate the review that calls Finkelstein out using the exact same yardstick that he does:
     
    “Israeli historian[56] Omer Bartov, writing for The New York Times Book Review, judged The Holocaust Industry to be marred by the same errors he denounces in those who exploit the Holocaust for profit or politics:

    ‘It is filled with precisely the kind of shrill hyperbole that Finkelstein rightly deplores in much of the current media hype over the Holocaust; it is brimming with the same indifference to historical facts, inner contradictions, strident politics and dubious contextualizations; and it oozes with the same smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority… Like any conspiracy theory, it contains several grains of truth; and like any such theory, it is both irrational and insidious.’[57]

    “The Anti-Defamation League has described Finkelstein as an “obsessive anti-Zionist” filled with “vitriolic hatred of Zionism and Israel.”[64] On being called an anti-Zionist Finkelstein has said: “It’s a superficial term. I am opposed to any state with an ethnic character, not only to Israel.”[6]
     
    If, as Finklestein says, he is “opposed to any state with an ethnic character”, wouldn’t he find himself also opposed to the Arab states? But, we don’t see, or, hear his condemnation of those, do we? No, we don’t. So, the “ethnic character” of the Israelis is what concerns him, not ethnicity in general. He walks about with blinders on; for if he truly lived what he preached, he would see the suffering from both sides of the fight–wouldn’t he? Duplicitous! As an atheist, however, he wouldn’t be seeing the Lord’s will in anything, now would he?

    I would appreciate a psychoanalysis (not really) of him (victim mentality? his mother’s offshoot of the Stockholm Syndrome?) and perhaps an outline of Scriptural verses that would apply to him. I can understand, though, his appeal. When any particular viewpoint is not prevelant and someone with a voice like his espouses such contrary views, he is all the more readily listened to. He had a mindset that needed a cause. He found it. Does the “Emperor have no clothes”, or, is he a nudist? What does it matter, the truth is “he’s naked”!

    “Personal background and education”
    from an article in The New York Times.

  51. Hello, is the Moderator moderating?

    I’ve tried 3 times now to submit a response to Jon, but, you haven’t released it yet.  It wasn’t anything mean or such, just an answer to the youtube video on Finklestein.

    Oh well, guys, I’ll try again later as I don’t know yet what happened.

  52. Sheila,

    Your message was flagged as spam by our software due to all the links in it. I’ve unspammed it.

    – Marcus

  53. Ok, thanks, Marcus!  I did notice all the underlined words and thought I would go back in and take the underlining off, but, you beat me to it.

    So, we’re taking the positions of people that clearly have an agenda and/or are not of a Christian persuasion and using their various statements to try to quantify prophesy.  That doesn’t make much sense to me.  It would be like having someone opposed to nuclear energy as the director of the IEC.  Do you see what I mean, Jon.  And the Jewish voices you quote would not be at all familiar with the New Testament Scriptures, especially with the book of the Revelation.  When you remove the Scriptures from current affairs everything becomes only about the human equation.  There is the God Equation that figures into current affairs.  That is my position. 

    I’ve not had time to read your most recent post and I have much to do this afternoon, so, I’ll have to pick it up later this evening.

  54. Next Jon will find a source that says that the Son of the prominient westbank Ramalla Hamas leader did not really convert to Christianity, and become a beliver who renounced Hamas, renounced the Koran as in any measure a reliable book by a reliable personality, did not spend years working with Israeli intelligence to foil many documented PLO and Hamas plans of jihadic violence, and does not speak to this day of the need for truth among those deceived by the intentions of the PA, PLO, Hezbulla, and Hamas.    Cutting pretty quick to Jon’s mindset by my earliest approach to his bent, it becomes apparent that Jon is calling evil good and good evil.  The degree of delusion is proportional in his postings to the measure to which he ignores altogether 1) what scripture has promised the descendants of Abraham; 2) what Paul and Peter have written about the restorative and redemptive Plan of the Father toward Israel, where the heavens hold back the Return of Jesus until all they shared on that restorative intention is completed; 3) all literature which does not polarize against today’s Israel’s existence, founding, natural need to defend itself, and opens up the correlation between current restoration and Biblical Promises.    Simply because Jon also quotes some scripture does not mean a relationship with Jesus has been cultivated, internalized, comprehended, nor brings the testimony of HIm to his focus.  Indeed Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to redeem; and Paul has been explicit in conveying God’s intention for Israel’s inclusion and regrafting in to the family tree he has cultivated since the Beginning.

  55. Alright, I’ve read enough about what “other people” say about this and that. I want to know what you think. Please don’t quote any other Jewish or other intellectual’s musings, as I don’t believe they are necessary for our discussion. I’m only interested in your position and clarification of “why” Israel being back in the land of their forefathers is not a truism that comes directly from the Bible. I’d like to stick with my intital questioning of your statements and that would be, “what do you believe Scripture says about it?”  Is there nothing you see as coming from the pages of the Bible?  (Concerning current affairs, Israel, Islam, etc.)

  56. Hi Sheila,
    I won’t be able to respond at length today due to time constraints. Hopefully in a few days, though.
    You say
    ” I wouldn’t exactly take the musings of a professed “atheist and a communist” to heart when interpreting Holy Scripture.”
    Finkelstein wasn’t interpreting the Word of God, Sheila. It was a lecture about Cast Lead which relied heavily on IDF soldier testimony & Zionist Richard Goldstone’s report. If you don’t listen to atheists, by the way (but what about Rom 2:14-15?), do you listen to atheists P.M. Ben Gurion & Theodor Herzl’s fellow Zionist the atheist Max Nordau?
    Anyway, I wonder if ad hominem arguments are really all that helpful. Atheists are made in God’s image too, according to Rom 2:14f. On the other hand, if we shouldn’t put much stock in atheists’ arguments about the Bible (I lean toward agreeing that we shouldn’t), then the atheistic early Zionists’ arguments about the Bible (eg prophecy) should be treated with equal disfavor.

    My motivation is II Cor 6 & II Cor 10, which are alluded to in my earlier posts.
    Preserving the holiness of God & His name & preserving the holiness of the church universal by turning away from ALL sins, not just non-political ones, is my aim. (Favoring modern Israel works against these goals). For more on this point see earlier posts.

    I close with a joke about the journalist who interviewed 3 people, asking each of them the same question.
    Journalist: “Excuse me, what’s your opinion of the meat shortage?”
    Russian: “What’s an ‘opinion’?
    Journalist: “Excuse me, what’s your opinion of the meat shortage?”
    Pole: “What’s ‘meat’?
    Journalist: “Excuse me, what’s your opinion of the meat shortage?”
    Israeli: “What do you mean, ‘Excuse me’?

  57. Hi Jon,

    No. I don’t listen to “atheists P.M. Ben Gurion & Theodor Herzl’s fellow Zionist the atheist Max Nordau”. I only vaugely know who Ben Gurion is. In fact, I tune out much of the chatter back and forth between pro-Zionist/anti-Zionist’s and such. Really I do. I gather my understanding of current affairs from the Bible. Not that I put something or other in this or that category. I look at the bigger picture and that way I don’t get caught up trying to decipher every day headlines like some do. I just pulled what I did out for you because you were throwing yours my way. :-) I’m not really interested in sensationalism when it comes to sorting things out. There are events on the horizon, I believe, and in order for them to come to pass, there are certain events that will transpire before others. I am definitely set on some basic premises though. The first being that the Lord will gather the descendents of Jacob back to the land and then I believe the hourglass can be turned on it’s head and we can pick up prophesy from there.

    The events in, and surrounding, Jerusalem, are major indicators according to the prophets. Jerusalem might as well have a “gigantic, magnetic bullseye” on it, because it figures prominently in Scripture and in the end time scenario. In truth, the Bible says that is the case.

    One extremely telling dialog took place in the life of our Lord when the Apostles asked Him, “Lord, will you, at this time, restore the Kingdom to Israel?” His response is usually overlooked by the naysayers. He said, “It is not for you to know the times and the seasons that the Father is holding in His own hands.” So, we can rest assured, well, I do anyway, that the Father has it all under control. And, it seems evident that there are “times and seasons” for all things under Heaven, but, especially for those yet to come concerning “restoring the Kingdom to Israel.” And, according to Scripture, the Father has given all judgement to the Son. The Son didn’t say, “Give it up, guys–never gonna happen!” No, He politely said, “Don’t worry about it now, you have a different commission that I’m giving to you…You will go into all the world and you will take the Good News of Eternal Salvation to every kingdom.” “And, lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” That indeed, is good news.

    When we look at the Apostles statement in context, we see that they were expecting all of the prophesies of “King Messiah” to come to pass. After all, here was the Messiah and so He must be here to fulfill all of the prophesies that speak to Him Reigning from Jerusalem. And, that is exactly where our Orthodox and stubborn Jewish brothers get tripped up. Remember, they are still looking for Him to come the “first” time. They say Jesus cannot be the Messiah because, “this, this, this and this” didn’t happen yet. Well, and then, there are others who will concede that there are “two servants of the Lord.” One is the suffering servant, and the other is the conquering Messiah. And so, they take the two as separate, the one being Yeshua, the suffering servant, and the other, the son of David (a King) as yet to come. As Christians, we believe, (I do) that they are One and the Same. So, if the prophesies of the Passion of Christ were fulfilled, then, there are those of the Reigning Messiah that are not yet accomplished. That would be those that speak to the “Kingdom being restored” and “repairing the tents of David that have fallen down”, and the many, many others that say Israel shall “reign over their enemies”, etc, etc. The Apostles didn’t pull that question out of a vacuum, they were well versed in the prophesies that say as much, and as fellow heirs of the commonwealth of Israel, we should be able to see what they did in reading the same prophesies that they had in mind when they asked.

    So, in my having a great burden for “all of the lost” souls on earth, I am greatly burdened that those we (I) think of as the people of the Book, do not even recognize their Brother and Messiah who came to save them from their sins. Just as in 1st century Galilee, they are looking for material salvation and for physical redemption. That was their misconception in the Lord’s time and it is still true today. My evangelism is for the New Agers and those who are looking for the missing link; yes, it’s a strange calling and one that takes me into, somewhat, uncharted territory. Not so much from the “the aliens are our makers” perspective, but, more so, from the “science and evolution can answer everything” slant. I never was much on science as I studied history and fine arts at university. I am a Master Gardener with a Landscape Certificate, so, I’m having to study much to reach my great-nephew and those like him with the truth of the Bible. It’s a daunting task.

    Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I realize Finkestein wasn’t commenting on Scripture. I just think we got way-laid in our discussion. At least, as far as I was interested. I don’t consider myself a Zionist by strict definition. I look for the Lord from Heaven to plant His feet once more in the Holy Land. It’s called the Holy Land, in my opinion, because that is where His feet have passed, therefore, it is Holy. But, I’m back on track now. I appreciate your reasoning, not so much your rants, :) because I see that the vast majority in Israel are outside of the covenant of Messiah, whether Orthodox or atheist. And that is my burden for Israel. And for the Muslims and for the Communists and for the Atheists and for the New Agers. Does that help you see where I’m coming from?

    I hope, now, we can better understand each other’s interpretation of Scripture. I’m reasoning from the truths I’ve learned in my study of the Bible. I don’t read and think, “Ok, this fits into what I’m thinking”, I read and hear what those passages say and then I adjust my thinking to accommodate the truth of what is spoken by the Spirit of the Lord. First comes the Truth, then comes the necessary adjustment to what may have been preconceived notions. I’ve had to make many adjustments accordingly over the years. When I zero in on something, I can’t hold on to it to the exclusion of the “bigger picture”. You know, “missing the forest for the trees.”

  58. Jon,

    Here’s a recent article I hope you’ll read and consider.  I don’t know how to link to it, but, the name of the article on VOR is this:

    South Africans Weigh In on “Israeli Apartheid Week”
    Filed under Israel & The Jewish People, News on March 16th, 2011 by John Paul

  59. Ben Gurion ended his days contemplating these end times.  His shepherd hut on the Negev held two books open on his desk.  1) the Prophets of Old of the Bible, 2) Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth.  Golda Mier’s confession of faith in Yeshua as Messiah came at her deathbed, where, the Jewish believer physician who administered her IV meds in surgery and at her bedside led her in the prayer of faith in the Gospel of Yeshua, the Christ.  Redemption is always the intention and grace given opportunity to receive Jesus as savior and Lord.

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    One of Israel’s most eminent scholars, Zeev Maoz, was the former director of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies in Tel Aviv. The JCSS was founded in 1977 with funding primarily from Jewish communities here in the US. Among its primary supporters were Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban and Joseph Strelitz, President of the American Friends of Tel Aviv University and later Chairman of the International Board of Trustees. Prof. Maoz published a book in 2006 entitled Defending the Holy Land. According to amazon’s editorial review, “Defending the Holy Land is the most comprehensive analysis to date of Israel’s national security and foreign policy, from the inception of the State of Israel to the present.” Maoz concluded (& I’m paraphrasing here) that Israel’s war experience is one of folly, recklessness and self-made traps. Not one of Israel’s wars, he continues, with the possible exception of the 1948 war, was a war of self-defense. All were wars of choice. Israel’s decision makers were as reluctant when it came to making peace as they were daring in making war. Most of the peace proposals came from Arabs, the international community or local organizations. In quite a few cases, Israel was the party that violated the peace treaties. Maoz adds that Arabs have, in many instances, a remarkable tendency for respecting their treaty obligations.
     
    You can quickly prove to your own satisfaction that I’m accurately describing his book by clicking on the ‘look inside this book’ feature & reading the ‘front flap’ and first few pages (eg, the 3rd paragraph on p. 5) on amazon.
     
    “[T]here is a future for the man of peace. But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off” (Psa. 37:37b-38).
     
    “They do not speak peaceably, but devise false accusations against those who live quietly in the land” (Psa 35:20).
    Nat Turner led a slave rebellion in Southampton County, Virginia in 1831. Was it justified by demonizing whites, conjuring up sinister images of mass kidnapping, forcible enslavement and relocation to a distant continent, master-on-slave rape with impunity, brutality and murder of slaves, ‘they hate everything we blacks stand for’, etc?   Is that a legitimate modus operandi? Could he have rationalized the slaughter of not 59 whites but of tens or even hundreds of thousands? Of course not. “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.”
    “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry” (James 1:19) “for man’s anger [including Nat Turner’s] does not bring about the righteous life that God desires” (vs. 20).
    Eph. 5:10: “and find out what pleases the Lord.”
    “Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret—it leads only to evil” (Psa 37:8).
    Amos 5:21 -24: “’I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!’”
    Prov. 20:11 “Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.” (See Maoz paraphrase above).
    1 Tim. 5:21 “I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.”
    Deut. 10:14 -18 “To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your forefathers and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing….”
    Deut. 1:16-17a: “And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the disputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between one of them and an alien. Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God.”
    “It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism” (Col 3:24b-25).                                                                
    Heb. 12:14: “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
    Matt. 5:9: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”
    Prov. 20:3a: “It is to a man’s honor to avoid strife”
    Lev. 19:16: “’Do not go about spreading slander [such as ‘the raving bloodthirsty Muslims hate peaceful Israelis’] among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord’.”
    Psalm 85:10“Love and faithfulness meet together; righteousness and peace kiss each other.”
    James 3:17 -18: “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.”
    Isa. 58:5-7: “’Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the Lord? Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed [Gazans & West Bank Palestinians] free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?’”
    Prov. 12:10a: “A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal.” How much more so, the needs of aliens.
    Prov. 19:2 “It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.”
    I gather that your interpretation of prophecy regarding remnant Israel is basically material and political. Admittedly, it’s difficult to interpret prophecy, but my suggestion is that some of the passages are about physical Israel and others are about spiritual Israel, the church universal. If a passage seems to indicate a physical Israel, I suppose it could already have been fulfilled after the Exile; or possibly it will be fulfilled after Jesus comes back. And in some cases, I think it would be useful to recall what Jesus said: “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say ‘Here it is’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you” (Lk 17:20b-21). But no matter how we slice it, we must preserve the supremacy and holiness of God. He should always be first in our lives.
    When we look forward to prophecy’s fulfillment, God’s true children agree to: “Wait for the Lord and keep his way” (Psa 37:34).
    Sad to say, Sheila, but your approach to Middle East politics is largely a-historical. When God was dealing with Israel, his approach was intensely historical. You do notice the verses that speak favorably about genetic Israel. An example is in Num 24:9b: “May those who bless you be blessed, and those who curse you be cursed!” (Frankly, I just discovered this verse the other day). But notice the historical attitude of God in the very next chapter. When I say ‘historical,’ I mean that what actually happens is important to Him. “Yahweh’s will must be achieved in Yahweh’s way; the end that God has ordained must be reached by the means that God approves” Gerard Van Groningen, quoted in Dale Ralph Davis, Looking on the Heart, Volume 2, Expositions of I Samuel 15-31, Baker Books, 1994, p. 106. (See the example in Num 14:41ff, discussed in my earlier post.)
    In Num. 25:1-13, Israel strayed into idolatry and sexual immorality, which God not only noticed, but also punished. Verses 6-9 read: “Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them—through the Israelite and into the woman’s body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.”
     
    When God predicts that Israel will forsake Him and turn to idolatry soon after Moses drops off his perch, He adds “On that day, I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed” (Deut 31:17).
     
    Earlier in Deuteronomy He said that if Israel did not “carefully follow all the words of this law…and [does] not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God…” (Deut 28:58), that as a result “Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you (28:63). Notice that it says God was pleased to ruin them.
     
    And in Numbers 25:10-13, the Lord blesses Phinehas, the one who killed the seed of Satan, the 2 Israelite & Midianite idolaters (vss. 6-8), and He grants Phinehas & his descendants a covenant of priesthood. “Phinehas…has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them….Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him (Num 25:11-12).
     
    And after about 3,000 golden-calf-worshipping seeds of Satan were put to death at the Lord’s command in Exod 32:27-29, Moses declares “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day’ (vs. 29).
     
    Contrary to what you imply, Sheila, when God watches what modern Israel does, He doesn’t reason as follows: Well, a small number of those folks down there are following me reverently (eg, Messianic Jews & Palestinian Christians in modern Israel) while the rest of the people act wickedly, bu-u-ut, no biggie, at least a few of them believe in me, so I’ll continue to bless them. (Remember Sodom & Gomorrah). On the contrary, he killed 24,000 Israelite seeds of Satan (Num 25:9); he used Canaanite seeds of Satan to punish the presumptuous Israelite seeds of Satan in Num 14:41ff; he used an earthquake to kill the presumptuous Korah in Num 16:31-35 & the other seeds of Satan, the Israelites who afterwards declared with arrogant presumption “You have killed the Lord’s people” (Num 16:41), for a total of approx. 15,000 seeds of Satan put to death then (16:49). And in Acts 5:1-11, two more seeds of Satan, Ananias & Sapphira, were killed by the Lord. Peter asked “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart [perhaps with greed? and deceit?] that you have lied to the Holy Spirit…?” (Acts 5:3) Jesus had said to the money-loving Pharisees “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men [as did Ananias??], but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight” (Luke 16:15).
     
    When God made the covenant with Abraham, he commanded him: “…You must keep my covenant…”(Gen 17:9) & those who didn’t were punished. “Any uncircumcised male…will be cut off from his people…” (17:14). And when Sarah, blessed Sarah (“..she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her” 17:16), yet when she lied, God didn’t overlook the offense. “Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh’. But [God] said, ‘Yes, you did laugh’.” (18:15).
    You mistakenly portray Muslims as being the seed of Satan. Muslims aren’t untermenschen.  (“The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.” Ps. 145:9). Indeed, some of them—–if we don’t kill them first—–will be saved.  God not only loves His elect as of today, but His elect who will come into the fold later, too.
    Are they barbarians, Sheila? “It was high treason for a Catholic priest to be found anywhere in Queen Elizabeth’s realm.  Those who were captured were executed in a manner designed to strike terror into the beholders.  They were hanged, then taken down while still alive, their genitals were chopped off and thrown into a brazier, and their bowels were torn out”  (John Carey, Prof. Emeritus of English, Oxford University, The New York Review of Books, June 14, 2007).
    God even heeded the distress of Hagar & Ishmael and blessed them! (“The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made”). See Gen 16:11c: “the Lord has heard of your misery” (Ishmael means ‘God hears’). Also see Gen 21:17-20: “God heard [Ishmael] crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven…’What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there’….Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she…gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up.”
    Psalm 145:9 says:  “The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.”
    God hears the Chinese, the Bulgarians, the Kenyans, etc. And Ishmael’s descendants. Do you?
    “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment” (John 7:24).

    Luke 12:1c warns us against the yeast of the Pharisees: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.” Here are a few relevant examples of hypocrisy:
    http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20110204.htm
    Excerpt:
    “A common refrain among pundits is that fear of radical Islam requires (reluctant) opposition to democracy on pragmatic grounds. While not without some merit, the formulation is misleading. The general threat has always been independence. The US and its allies have regularly supported radical Islamists, sometimes to prevent the threat of secular nationalism.
    “A familiar example is Saudi Arabia, the ideological centre of radical Islam (and of Islamic terror). Another in a long list is Zia ul-Haq, the most brutal of Pakistan‘s dictators and President Reagan’s favorite, who carried out a programme of radical Islamisation (with Saudi funding).” (emphasis added)
    Another example:
    Congressman Peter King is concerned whether American Muslims might be too sympathetic to terrorism, but King himself supported the Irish Republican Army, a group that our own government considered terrorists.
    More yeast of the Pharisees (from my book):
    “An example of wounding slander that no doubt alienated many Muslims was evangelist Franklin Graham’s remark that Islam is a violent religion. But his own words will bear witness against himself for he implicitly condemns that which he approves of when perpetrated by the US in Iraq. Is Christianity a violent religion because of the crusades, the pogroms, the medieval burnings at the stake, the massacres of Catholics by Protestants and vice versa, the slaughter of the Indians, the lynchings, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the tens of millions of abortions and the unprovoked attack on Iraq?”
    Some Parades Need Rain: A Road Map to Reconciliation in Strife-torn Times, Jon Ivey, pp. 95-96 (amazon).
    “For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself [or, your country] more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment…” (Rom. 12:3).
    And another example:
    http://www.redress.cc/zionism/slittlewood20110317
    Excerpt:
    “Have Zionists acknowledged the acts of terror their own forces inflict daily in the heart of Palestinian civic life? They complain about thousands of makeshift rockets from Gaza. Do they never count the state-of-the-art bombs, rockets and shells fired INTO Gaza by their own tanks, jets, helicopter gunships, armed drones and warships? And the resulting mega-deaths and wholesale destruction of key infrastructure, in many cases funded by Western Christian taxpayers like me?” (emphasis added)
     
    And such as:
    http://972mag.com/how-to-respond-to-political-baiting-breaking-the-silence-vs-ngo-monitor/
    Excerpt quote by Moshe Dayan:
    “An attempt to understand the motives of an act does not equal justifying despicable acts against an innocent population. We suggest you leaf through an Israeli history book and read up the famous eulogy read by Moshe Dayan to Roii Rottenberg: ‘We cannot complain over their fierce hate for us: For eight years, they have been sitting in the refugee camps of Gaza, while we, before their eyes, have been making the land and the villages where they and their fathers dwelled into our own.’ These comments by Israel’s most famous defense minister would probably be seen by you [ie NGO Monitor] as “anti-Israeli…”
     
    Eph. 5:11: “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness [committed by any country, including our own], but rather expose them.”
     
    God blessed each of the following four prophets, but are you dismissive for the glory of Israel, Sheila?
     
    Moses: obviously a closet Egyptian, educated in pagan Egyptian schools. [Is this how you think, trying to find some detractor who’ll make it easy to ignore someone?] When they tried to punish this arrogant murderer for killing an Egyptian, he fled because he fancied himself above the law. Besides, there’s a suspicious 40-year hole in his resume when he dropped out of society & was rumored to be lurking in heathen Midian, spending inordinately long periods of time alone with sheep, steeping himself in morally corrupt, polytheistic ways. Absolutely never has a good word to say about the children of Israel. He even claimed that Egyptian law (from Mt. Sinai) is paramount. Distracts us from fulfilling God’s promises, so who needs him?
     
    Nathan: hateful, jealous (clearly wanted Bathsheba and/or the throne for himself), aggressive traitor to his country; utterly naive anti-war peacenik who doesn’t realize that Israel’s vicious enemies ACHE to destroy her!! Who would DARE speak truth to power while we’re fighting desperately to survive??!!

    Elijah: loner, cactus-hugger, crank, delusional (he thought God spoke to him—ha ha ha, yeah-h-h right), leftist social misfit; has a hidden anti-King-Ahab agenda, overly negative & cynical attitude about his country. Hostile to our leader’s spokesmen 95% of the time. NEVER accentuates the positive. Was even spotted conversing with Baal worshippers. Possibly a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
     
    Jesus: a demon-possessed, Samaritan, blasphemer (Jn 8:48ff) & enemy of the state (“We have found this man [ie, Jesus] subverting our nation” Luke 23:2b), according to our usually reliable religious establishment. Harshly critical of the people of God, too, especially their well-meaning, under-appreciated leaders. Rumored to have socialized with harlots, pub- crawlers, & even liberal atheists. Hopelessly misinformed about Roman intentions to destroy our way of life.
     
    “Whom have you so dreaded and feared that you have been false to me?” Isa. 57:11
    I believe the reason why so many American believers remain immature in the faith is that they worry about the future [eg, the future of the Middle East, etc]. “The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature” (Lk 8:14).
    The best advice offered comes from James Thurber— even if he was an atheist ;);): “Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness.”
     
    juancole.com, April 23, 2008:”The Israeli Right is always going on about threats to Israel’s existence, even though it is the most powerful country in the Middle East. But no one ever brings up its strangulation of the Palestinian nation, its siege of Gaza, its dispossession of the West Bankers. The right makes an imagined future threat the basis for actual victimization of others in the present. America’s security is deeply threatened by the ongoing Israeli colonization projects in the Middle East, as should have been clear for some time.”  [emphasis added]
    There are many, many incontrovertible historical facts I could share with you, sister, to show that Christians should most definitely not align themselves with Tel Aviv, but so far you don’t seem to want to listen, and your spiritual deafness is a sin against James 1:19, against Prov. 18:17: (“The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him,”) and against the image of God in Dr. Finkelstein and other Commies. Please reconsider. You deface God’s holiness and make him an amoral laid-back real estate agent.
     
    An example of the image of God in mankind:
    Even the Communist Mikhail Gorbachev was made in God’s image:
    Gorbachev called for a probe into last week’s statement by Natalya Vasilyeva, an assistant to the judge who convicted Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who said that the judge did not write the verdict and read it against his will in the Moscow courtroom. He stated:
    I fully trust [the judge’s assistant, Vassilyeva]. People can’t stand it [ie, judicial corruption] anymore – she saw what was happening with her own eyes. This fact [revealed by Vassilyeva] should make up a subject of investigation. There’s no weaseling your way out when you find yourselves in a situation like that. The most assured road to salvation is to tell everything the way it really was“.
    Source:
    http://www.khodorkovskycenter.com/news-resources/stories/gorbachev-accuses-putin-conceit
    Yes, even Communists like Gorbachev & Finkelstein were made in the image of God, with a sense of right and wrong! And please don’t discount Balaam’s talking donkey just because she was possibly an atheist. ;););) (Num 22:28ff)
    BALAAM: (THWACK)
    MAGNOLIA: “Jiminy cricket!”
    B: (Thwack)
    M: “Jiminy cricket”
    B: (THWACK)
    M: “Jiminy cricket! A-a-a-ngel. Oh-h-h A-A-A-N-NGEL. Ha-a-alp!!!”
    ;););)
    http://972mag.com/the-voice-of-people-not-always-what-you-expect/
    by Dahlia Scheindlin, who teaches at Ben Gurion University (excerpt):
    “It is deeply upsetting to realize that we have trained ourselves to dismiss those with whom we disagree. This is a terrible practice that makes our interlocutors into nonentities. Those who do it turn shallow and self-indulgent; they make their lives easy by pretending the right winger, the left winger, the radical, centrist, settler, secular or whatever, is inferior. Not surprisingly, their conclusions turn destructive.” (emphasis added)
    The first-century church’s goals were the glory of God and the holiness of His name. In our day, first and foremost, we seek the glory of modern Israel, the glory of the United States and the holiness of our jihad against Islam. But Psalm 94:20 asks of Israel: “Can a corrupt throne be allied with you—one that brings on misery by its decrees?” Secondarily, there’s God— so long as he doesn’t hinder our top priority. The seed of Satan is not just in Gaza and Mecca, but also within the Jewish squatter settlements in the West Bank, and even within his current tool-of-choice, the American church. (How subtle he is!) For example, on the March 18th, 2011 Janet Mefferd Show on Salem Radio Network, I listened as a guest host interviewed an ex-Muslim Christian. The topic was, how should we Christians view the supposed peacefulness of Islam since 9/11. This is a deceitful framing question since, according to the FBI, Al Qaeda didn’t perpetrate the 9/11 attacks. Besides, if Al Qaeda had funded but not done 9/11, wouldn’t the FBI charge him with that? How do you feel about Islam post-9/11? “Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.” I Peter 2:1. Malice was defined by Bible commentator Everett F. Harrison as “a mind-set that attributes evil motives to others without provocation.” The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Vol. 10, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, Zondervan Publishing House, 1976, p. 26.
    “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness. Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong.” Exod. 23:1-2.
    The Greeks thought nothing of leaving an unwanted child out somewhere in a jar so that he or she would die a slow, agonizing death by starvation or exposure to the elements. In Acts 17, Paul stood before a bunch of these pagan baby-killers at the Areopagus, and you’d think that this apostle of the only true religion would’ve put these evildoers in their place in no uncertain terms.  But you’d be mistaken. He doesn’t revile his listeners, but seeks common ground. “Men of Athens!  I see that in every way you are very religious.  For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:  TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you” (Acts 17:22-23).
    2 Cor. 5:16 , 18-20a: “So from now on we regard no one [no, not even Muslims] from a worldly point of view.  Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer….All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.  And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.  We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.”
    Who attacked us on 9/11? 3,000 Americans were murdered. Shouldn’t our government try to find out?
    How do you feel about the mis-translation of Ahmadinejad’s remarks about Israel’s regime eventually disappearing? Not a single Muslim country seeks the destruction of Israel itself. Look at the history of Muslim-Jewish relations. The Ottomans welcomed and protected the Jews who’d been thrown out by Christians. Jews live unmolested in Iran & other Muslim countries right now. Get truth in. Do you embrace deceit? Nathan didn’t seek the destruction of Israel or their enemy’s victory. He sought repentance. Satan is even near you, my sister, to entice you into sin and to accuse others falsely. How very subtle he is! He always masquerades under the guise of goodness. Yes, you’re a Christian, but are you complacent? “For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin” (Psa 36:2). There’s absolutely nothing wrong with loving Israel (of course not!!), as long as doing so doesn’t cause us to sin.
    “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” Mark 7:9
    “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be…boastful, proud, abusive,…unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous,…brutal,…treacherous, rash, conceited…. Have nothing to do with them.” II Tim. 3:1-5.
    This Timothy passage doesn’t mean you can’t associate with Israelis. I’m sure many of them are very sweet & gentle people! But it does mean we shouldn’t strengthen the hands of their government. And the only reason you don’t know yet that Tel Aviv is brutal, slanderous, treacherous, etc is because you refuse to listen to the compelling evidence. You’re a-historical. You notice the blessings about remnant Israel, as you should. But you ignore God’s wrath against genetic Israel. And you (& most Christians) ignore His blessings on Hagar & Ishmael. This doesn’t mean that unrepentant Muslims are going to heaven, of course, but it does show the compassionate heart of God towards his critters. “Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens….O Lord, you preserve both man and beast” (Psa 36:5, 6b). You dishonor God while honoring modern Israel. Because your aim is the glory of modern Israel, and only secondarily the glory of God, therefore you ignore talk of its sins as a distraction (were Elijah, the “troubler of Israel” (I Kings 18:17), Nathan & Jesus merely ‘distractions’—??!!!!??) and you search for people who say favorable things about it. This leads you into misusing names, slander (eg, calling victims aggressors and vice versa), malice, deceit (accusing Islam—despite its historical record (see the Zeev Maoz book; see Hugh Kennedy’s The Great Arab Conquests)— of being an intrinsically violent religion) and hypocrisy. But in fairness to you, your intentions are good.
    “Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it” (Psa 34:12-14). Jesus tells us what is good & what’s evil here: “…Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” (Mk. 3:4). No one is accusing you of murder, friend, but Israel does that frequently. And since we influence them financially & morally, shouldn’t we encourage them to do good?
     
    “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people? Therefore come out from them and be separate,’ says the Lord….Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.” (II Cor 6:14 – 7:1).
     
    “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension [including Zionism] that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought [including thoughts about Israel] to make it obedient to Christ”. (II Cor 10:4-5)
    Psalm 82:2-4: “How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed [Palestinian Christians]. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
    “’God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.’ Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the [equivocating, slandering, malicious, enticing] devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.” James 4:6b-8
     

  61. Hi Jon,

    I wasn’t exactly prepared to critique a book, or, at least a first chapter of one, but, since we’ve begun I’ll do my best to better explain my position. First, let me clarify that I’m not at all saying that Israel is more righteous than the Muslim nations surrounding it. I thought that I had said as much in my earlier posts. Nor am I saying that all Muslims are of the seed of Satan. I feel I qualified that when I named the “terrorists and the jihadist” elements that were birthed from that particular religion. I realize the sins of those who claimed to be Christians, but, they proved they were not. Specifically the Crusaders and those within the Catholic Church who tortured and murdered people in ages past. Their actions certainly tarnished the Name of Christ, to say the least, not to mention that they probably set back the message of the Gospel for hundreds of years making prosylitizing more than difficult. The Lord is their Judge.  The Lord is our judge.
     

    Concerning America and our past sins, I couldn’t agree more. While everyone was in an uproar over President Obama humbling himself before other nations, I was more than happy to see it myself. And if their custom is that you bow before them, well then, bow. Such was the custom in the Middle Eastern nations as we read in the Bible. I think, as a people and as Christians, we too need to humble ourselves. It’s exactly the mindset of some politicians (and some right-wing-nut Evangelicals) that really irk me in behaving more

    like Nebuchadnezzer before the Lord humbled him! Yes, our past sins are very grevious. 

    However, I don’t know how you read so much into my previous posts when you accused me of all sorts of malicious intent. I was speaking of prophesy (future) not history (past) and I certainly wasn’t implying that Israel is any more righteous as a whole than any other nation, at present. I believe you are the one who needs to open both of your eyes. You would have me believe that all the fault lies in Israel. And I’m thinking that you erroneously think that I believe “all” Muslims are evil monsters. I don’t. I strive to live in peace with all people and I have no notions of fear concerning them. However, the truth is that their religion today has birthed terrorists. Are you going to deny that? You seem enamored of the Palestinians to such an extent that you have yet to acknowledge that living there among them are members of Hamas and Hezbollah who routinely lob missles into Israel, smuggle arms through tunnels from Egypt and blow things up to kill as many others as possible. And then, there was just this morning someone who set off a bomb at a bus station in Jerusalem, killing one and injuring thirty others. There were rocket attacks as well. Are these individuals seeking peace? Your take on things is very one-sided. We could go back and forth quoting this one and that one, he said, she said, but, I’m not interested in anyone elses views other than yours. So, if you believe as they do, just say so. I’ve not given you anything you can point to to warrant the quotes and quite lengthy defense you make for the Palestinians. I never said anything about the Palestinians. My love extends to all people to see them embrace the Gospel and be saved for eternity. I have not said anything that could even be misconstrued as relating to them. I don’t like war. Period! I barely watch television because I can’t handle the violence and the sinful portrayal of almost everything. It is all very offensive and it vexes my spirit, so, I’ve no desire to allow it in my life. So, please, rein yourself in a bit. I’m not the “everything Israel does is just, and I hate the Palestinians because I’m a Zionist war-mongering right-wing-nut” person that you paint me as. And I take serious offense at the Scriptures you want to apply to me.

    These are more than unkind words:
     

    Satan is even near you, my sister, to entice you into sin and to accuse others falsely. How very subtle he is! He always masquerades under the guise of goodness. Yes, you’re a Christian, but are you complacent? “For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin” (Psa 36:2). There’s absolutely nothing wrong with loving Israel (of course not!!), as long as doing so doesn’t cause us to sin.
    “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” Mark 7:9
    “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be…boastful, proud, abusive,…unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous,…brutal,…treacherous, rash, conceited…. Have nothing to do with them.” II Tim. 3:1-5.

    While you seem to see the satan sitting on my shoulder, you miss his workings in the broader Middle East. I am speaking of the forest–not to the individual trees at this time. There is an inexhorbitant animosity towards the Jews in general and anyone who denies this reality is either not in tune with the bigger picture, or, possibly they are in denial. Or, possibly they don’t want to explore the demonic hatred that is evident in this historic fact. Yes, fact. Why, because they are called by His Name, and they were set apart by God, not me. And what of the Christian persecution? Do you know anything of Christian persecution? Are you aware of the modern day martyrs for Christ? Because I’m wondering if you would like to defend their tormentors and murderers at this time. Their persecutors are for the most part atheists and Muslims. I’m sorry, but, that is the truth. And why do they hate us? Because we preach Him. Because we are called by His appelate. Christ. Christians. And isn’t it because they either don’t know the true God, or, they hate God, or, they want to deny there even is a God? Why the hatred, Jon? Do you not see the workings of Satan behind the scenes? I do. I don’t hate them for hating us. I pray for them; if I have to I’ll lay down my life for the Truth of the Gospel. But, we are not wrestling with flesh and blood. No, we are wrestling with supernatural powers who are working in opposition to God and Jesus and at this time they are the strongest in the radical Muslim sects. So, whether or not Osama bin Laden masterminded 9/11, the fact remains–the terrorist elements in Islam would absolutely love to clobber America and Israel! Who is it that is chanting “Death to America!!?” And if you would like to deny this too, then I don’t really know what to say to you, except that you are entitled to your opinion. The prophets still speak today, as well as our Lord, that the time is at hand; “even at the door.”
     
    I’d like you to watch this movie, then comment on it.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7057936494064976215#

  62. Jon champions and claims:

    “Most of the Muslim violence and increasing power of Iran is in response to prior Israeli— and in the case of Iran, American aggression—2 US aircraft carriers next to Iran, US troops to the east & west, threats to attack by Bush, etc–and is proportionately less than the Israeli violence that preceded it. If this seems outlandish to you, it’s because you haven’t examined Sharatt’s diary entry, Gideon Levy’s Haaretz interview, Mr Giladi & other Zionists like Goldstone, etc, etc.”

    In doing so, while claiming to follow Jesus, Jon ignores altogethter the deceitfulness of false religion, false beliefs, and the false assertions of Islam.  He is allied in perspective, argumentation, and alliance with the spirit behind Islam to date.  Advocacies for reconciliation, as supposed, as asserted, are limited to an earthly plain which addresses the State of Israel by a partial and prejudicial depiction of the Middle East conflict since her establishment, and prior.  The standard Jon supposedly supports is the righteousness of God in the Mosaic Law, which is ignored altogether in its contextual presentation to the chosen People for occupation of the Land in the Book: as to God’s own commands given regarding the prior occupants of the Land after the Exodus.  God’s charges were indeed harsh, and were conducted by the instrument of the Israelites, per his destructive will.  TO assume that God no longer has intentions to introduce the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, David, Soloman and the Prophets, of Ester, Ruth and those of the period of the Judges, and those who both received and rejected Jesus into the Land by whatever means he chose through the forces of history, is to assume God blind, deaf, and dumb. 

    Jon has defended the foundations of Islam and its adherents more than the foundations of those of the Tenach.  He has defended murderous intention, hatred, and false religion to the degree that he has not discerned its own foundations.  There is a great prejudice, bias, and predisposed intention in his political assumption for a political nations above the will of God in Christ in Redemptive history–past, present, and future–notion of reconciliation presented.  He buys into the aparthed notion of the creation and gathering of the Jewish people for the 1948 creation of Israel in “a day”.  He grants his heart the capacity not only to reject the intentions of God in the mix of regathering, but also the contempt of the establishment thereunder.  Each selectively presented take on this or that selectively presented opinion on this or that ignores the promises intermixed of the Prophets of Old on the present regathering, and ongoing work of establishing holiness among a remnant of Israel.  Clearly Romans 11 and Jesus word on the return in Nt. 24 and Lk 21 reveal a time ahead for the recognition of Him as the Messiah, the Redeemer of presently gathered Israel, at Jerusalem.  In the meantime we have the patient work of the Spirit of God and the Witness of the Believers in Yeshua ongoing among the People of the Land of the Book.  Through the Prophets God has established His intention not to forget Jerusalem, to regather and rebuild Israel of the People of the Book, and to the end of His Messiah’s coming Kindgom.  There is no other stage set for these actions than a Jewish State of Israel.  This would not be the tribunal scenario Jon has supposed from his own predisposition would be the nations judging the chosen Nation; it would be from the Promises given through the Prophets of Old (Acts 3:21), to complete what is written of in those prevailing intentions.  Yeshua will come, and for the defense of Israel’s Jerusalem, and the resestablishment of Promise to the Land, of the Book, of the People of its own Hope. 

    Pretty clearly now the time is short for the final events of Daniel the Prophet to occur, for the Messianic Promises of the Scroll of Isaiah to be so, and for Jeremiah, Ezekiel’s and many other Prophets words to come to pass through and in the chosen Land of the People of the Book.

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    You made some points, which I’ll try to address in the next few days, Lord willing.
    In the meantime, in an earlier brief post, you mentioned an article that responded to charges of apartheid. (I did read that article, by the way.)
     
    Then on March 23, 2011, a South African university announced as follows:
    http://www.ujpetition.com/2011/03/boycott-of-israel-victory.html
    Excerpt from their website:
    “….the University of Johannesburg (UJ) has decided to sever ties with Israel’s Ben-Gurion University (BGU).

    “In September 2010, UJ refused to continue its relationship with BGU unless certain criteria were met within 6 months. This included a requirement that a Palestinian university must be included in the research relationship. BGU failed to meet this condition, as well as the other criteria set by the Senate Resolution, owing to the unanimous and principled support by all Palestinian universities to refuse to entertain any links with BGU on the grounds of that University’s complicity in Israeli apartheid.

    “Detailed evidence was placed before Senate showing clearly BGU’s active restriction and violation of political and academic freedom; its direct and deliberate collaboration with the Israeli Defence Force (an occupying military force in flagrant violation of international law); and its maintenance of policies and practices that further entrench the discriminatory policies of the Israeli state.”

    Also, this time you mentioned a google video (which I haven’t seen yet) that you’d like me to view.
     
    Here’s part of a video about Theodor Herzl in Hebrew, but with English subtitles, produced by Torah-observant Jews. The made-in-God’s-image-atheist Finkelstein is not in it.
     
    Herzl video:
    parts 1 (about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=related
     
    & 5 (also about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiPbCkUSVD4&feature=related
     
    If you’ll watch these 2 parts & give me your feedback, then I’ll watch the google video that you mentioned (assuming it’s not too long—90 minutes-plus might be too long).
     
    Is that a deal, friend? “Everyone should be quick to listen” (James 1:19).

  64. Sure, I’ll watch them.  If you can’t get through the entire 90 minutes, I would imagine even 30 min. would suffice.  I’ll be very busy this weekend and will pick it up Monday or Tuesday.

  65. BALAAM: (THWACK)
    MAGNOLIA: “Jiminy cricket!”
    B: (Thwack)
    M: “Jiminy cricket”
    B: (THWACK)
    M: “Jiminy cricket! A-a-a-ngel. Oh-h-h A-A-A-N-NGEL. Ha-a-alp!!!”

    Sooo funny! I’ll never see that donkey (poor Magnolia) the same way again… But, the madness of the prophet who came to curse Israel, well, would Baalam fair any better today?

  66. Sorry, guys, for the double postings.   I think I tried to force to much in at one time.  And then, I repeated some passages. 

    Anyway, I think I’ve shown the promises of the Lord to literal Israel.  And as He says, “in the latter days you shall consider it perfectly.”

    When the Lord pours out His Spirit on the house of Israel, the remnant shall say, “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.”  And if Israel will not see Him again until that time–neither will we!  So, why do we pray for Israel?  Why do we have a heart for them.  I have a heart for them because through their temporary blindness I was saved by the mercy of God.  I would have them grafted back in and speedily!  Only a remnant survived the Holocaust and as Ezekiel saw, the Lord brought that remnant back to the land where He has placed His Name “forever”. 

    It seems clear to me that they are the remnant that will see the salvation of their God.  And, too, that the Lord is bearing the vessels fitted for destruction and those that hate the God of Israel until such time as they are cut off forever!  I am speaking, of course, of the terrortists and the jihadists that are working for the Lord’s adversary, who is clearly the god of Islam. 

    Any questions?

  67. Marcus,

    I don’t know what in the world I did, but, now my postings are in bold print.  If you can fix it, please do.  I don’t know much about the choices given for the text when I submit them.  I think part of the problem occurred when I tried to force feed it to much!  :)  And then, some of the verses I had already made deliberately bold and others in italics, but, the processor kept that format which wasn’t intended.

    Anyway, if you can help, that would be good.

    Thanks!

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    I apologize for misunderstanding your references to ‘seed of Satan’ as applying to all Muslims when, as you say, you only meant the radicals or terrorists among them. And I’m delighted that you liked the Balaam/Magnolia dialogue I made up.
     
    I’m trying to follow your argument about modern Israel being the subject of Biblical prophecy, rather than post-exilic remnant Israel and/or the church universal, as I’ve contended, depending on the particular Bible passage under consideration. I sense that your argument is incomplete. Do you plan a future summing up?
     
    As I await that summing up, here are some preliminary scattered thoughts for you to consider. Ezek 37 doesn’t strike me as a prophecy about the Holocaust, because its victims didn’t resurrect (vs 12). And in Ezek 39:3,9,10, & 20, this seems to indicate a post-exilic occurrence, not a 20th or 21st century one, because of the wooden battle weapons, the bows, arrows, spears, horses & charioteers –not that horses are wooden ;);)–. There’s so much wood that Israel won’t need to gather firewood for a long time. Another post-exilic prophecy, it seems to me, is in Jer 33:18, because it speaks of animal sacrifices. And wouldn’t it be plausible to argue that Jer 33:15 is a prophecy about the time of Jesus, since it mentions a Branch & He is called a Branch elsewhere?
     
    After all, to assert that modern Israel, or a part thereof, is the fulfillment of the prophecies you cite, is not the same as proving it. There’s always the possibility that Satan will bring counterfeit ‘Israels’ along to deceive us, which is what I consider modern Israel. Perhaps the Israel you see in the Scriptures will arise anew in the 22nd century. Or perhaps it’s a reference to the New Jerusalem at the last days when Israel will consist of all saved folk, Gentile, Jew, Palestinian, etc. But I think it’s positively crucial to make sure that whatever our interpretation of prophecies, that we seek first & foremost to preserve the glory, holiness & righteousness of the Lord Jesus. Amen?
     
    In an earlier post, you asked something about Muslim violence. I’d already discussed this question when I mentioned Israel’s M.O. of provocation and revenge for decades & I cited a number of examples of their tactics. I also mentioned Zeev Maoz, very much an establishment Israeli historian & quite well-respected, who indicated in his book that mostly Israel has been the aggressor since 1948 (see 1st paragraph of my 3-21-11 post). Also there’s this:
     
     
    Recent examples of unreported Israel news from March 23rd to the 29th, 2011:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/missingheadlines.html
    (Note: the most recent news items are immediately below in the following list; thus the ones at the bottom of this list are the oldest).
     
    I’m not suggesting that you read any of these items, Sheila. I’m just showing the headlines to illustrate what provocations the supposedly bloodthirsty Muslims are reacting to within a six day period.
     
    Report: “Settlement construction quadrupled in 2010”
    Israel to evict more Palestinian families in the Jordan Valley
    Israeli tanks and bulldozers invade Gaza
    Israeli forces abduct 14 in West Bank town, including 7 children
    Settlers vandalize West Bank village, chop down trees
    False Symmetry: Gaza schools teach about the Holocaust while Israel forbids Palestinian history
    Israel air strike kills 2 in Gaza less than 24 hours after Palestinian leaders offer truce
    Israel destroys ancient wells near Bethlehem
    Gaza factions offer truce, if Israel reciprocates
    Letters, Packages en Route to Gaza via Israel Go “Missing”
    Israeli forces demolish Palestinian tent in the West Bank
    Israel breaks up anti-wall protests across West Bank
    Gazans count cost of escalating violence
    The killing of children is a horrific, despicable act, yet Israel condones it
    Schnabel’s ‘Miral’ receives major attention, while Palestinian director of ‘Jenin Jenin’ remains under assault
    Settlers install barbed wire fence around Palestinian home
    Settlers observe ‘Day Of Rage’ pouring wrath on Palestinians
    Counter to media-induced myth of celebrations, Palestinians decried Itamar murders
    Group launches petition to save historic Palestinian village from being erased from history and turned into luxury Jewish-only development
    Israeli soldiers arrest Palestinian popular committee activist
    Israel launches further attacks on Gaza
    Israeli bulldozers destroy Freedom Street in Northern West Bank Village
    Israeli forces detain 9 in the West Bank
    Medics report Palestinian man treated for wounds from settler beating
    Airstrikes reported across Gaza, blackouts roll across Gaza City
    Netanyahu approves further strikes in Gaza
    Israel continues to bomb Gaza while Israeli politicians consider further escalation
    Israeli forces injure 1, detain 3 in the West Bank
    And the above was just in a recent six day period.
     
    And an article about Israel’s incitement-to-violence problem, by Israeli journalist Noam Sheizaf (a look at a school book for Jewish Israeli kids):
    http://972mag.com/the-israeli-incitement-problem/
    (Btw, 972 is Israel’s area code. The journalists who write for 972mag are Jewish Israeli or Israeli-American, mostly.)
     
    You promised to view the 2 videos (see below for URLs). Have you forgotten, friend?
     
     
    Here’s part of a video about Theodor Herzl in Hebrew, but with English subtitles, produced by Torah-observant Jews.
     
    Herzl video:
    parts 1 (about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=related
     
    & 5 (also about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiPbCkUSVD4&feature=related
     
    If you’ll watch these 2 parts & give me your feedback, then I’ll watch the google video that you mentioned (assuming it’s not too long—90 minutes-plus might be too long).
     

    Too little attention is being given to the spirit of Israel’s founding fathers.
     
     
    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

  69. Marcus,

    I do use my own wordpad document and then copy and paste to the comments sections.  The second time I went to add comments, I used your bar at the top to try to take some of the bold off and this stuff is what it ending up doing.  My IE screen sort of whited out and I thought it didn’t go in, so, I entered it again.  I don’t know if that will help.

    So sorry. 

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    Hi Sheila,
     
    I clicked ‘submit’ to post the following response on March 30.

    Nothing happened. I immediately emailed to askdrbrown, asking them to post it. But it still hasn’t appeared. So I’m trying again now (April 1st).
     
    I apologize for misunderstanding your references to ‘seed of Satan’ as applying to all Muslims when, as you say, you only meant the radicals or terrorists among them. And I’m delighted that you liked the Balaam/Magnolia dialogue I made up.
     
    I’m trying to follow your argument about modern Israel being the subject of Biblical prophecy, rather than post-exilic remnant Israel and/or the church universal, as I’ve contended, depending on the particular Bible passage under consideration. I sense that your argument is incomplete. Do you plan a future summing up?
     
    As I await that summing up, here are some preliminary scattered thoughts for you to consider. Ezek 37 doesn’t strike me as a prophecy about the Holocaust, because its victims didn’t resurrect (vs 12). And in Ezek 39:3,9,10, & 20, this seems to indicate a post-exilic occurrence, not a 20th or 21st century one, because of the wooden battle weapons, the bows, arrows, spears, horses & charioteers –not that horses are wooden ;);)–. There’s so much wood that Israel won’t need to gather firewood for a long time. Another post-exilic prophecy, it seems to me, is in Jer 33:18, because it speaks of animal sacrifices. And wouldn’t it be plausible to argue that Jer 33:15 is a prophecy about the time of Jesus, since it mentions a Branch & He is called a Branch elsewhere?
     
    After all, to assert that modern Israel, or a part thereof, is the fulfillment of the prophecies you cite, is not the same as proving it. There’s always the possibility that Satan will bring counterfeit ‘Israels’ along to deceive us, which is what I consider modern Israel. Perhaps the Israel you see in the Scriptures will arise anew in the 22nd century. Or perhaps it’s a reference to the New Jerusalem at the last days when Israel will consist of all saved folk, Gentile, Jew, Palestinian, etc. But I think it’s positively crucial to make sure that whatever our interpretation of prophecies, that we seek first & foremost to preserve the glory, holiness & righteousness of the Lord Jesus. Amen?
     
    In an earlier post, you asked something about Muslim violence. I’d already discussed this question when I mentioned Israel’s M.O. of provocation and revenge for decades & I cited a number of examples of their tactics. I also mentioned Zeev Maoz, very much an establishment Israeli historian & quite well-respected, who indicated in his book that mostly Israel has been the aggressor since 1948 (see 1st paragraph of my 3-21-11 post). Also there’s this:
     
     
    Recent examples of unreported Israel news from March 23rd to the 29th, 2011:
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/missingheadlines.html
    (Note: the most recent news items are immediately below in the following list; thus the ones at the bottom of this list are the oldest).
     
    I’m not suggesting that you read any of these items, Sheila. I’m just showing the headlines to illustrate what provocations the supposedly bloodthirsty Muslims are reacting to within a six day period.
     
    Report: “Settlement construction quadrupled in 2010”
    Israel to evict more Palestinian families in the Jordan Valley
    Israeli tanks and bulldozers invade Gaza
    Israeli forces abduct 14 in West Bank town, including 7 children
    Settlers vandalize West Bank village, chop down trees
    False Symmetry: Gaza schools teach about the Holocaust while Israel forbids Palestinian history
    Israel air strike kills 2 in Gaza less than 24 hours after Palestinian leaders offer truce
    Israel destroys ancient wells near Bethlehem
    Gaza factions offer truce, if Israel reciprocates
    Letters, Packages en Route to Gaza via Israel Go “Missing”
    Israeli forces demolish Palestinian tent in the West Bank
    Israel breaks up anti-wall protests across West Bank
    Gazans count cost of escalating violence
    The killing of children is a horrific, despicable act, yet Israel condones it
    Schnabel’s ‘Miral’ receives major attention, while Palestinian director of ‘Jenin Jenin’ remains under assault
    Settlers install barbed wire fence around Palestinian home
    Settlers observe ‘Day Of Rage’ pouring wrath on Palestinians
    Counter to media-induced myth of celebrations, Palestinians decried Itamar murders
    Group launches petition to save historic Palestinian village from being erased from history and turned into luxury Jewish-only development
    Israeli soldiers arrest Palestinian popular committee activist
    Israel launches further attacks on Gaza
    Israeli bulldozers destroy Freedom Street in Northern West Bank Village
    Israeli forces detain 9 in the West Bank
    Medics report Palestinian man treated for wounds from settler beating
    Airstrikes reported across Gaza, blackouts roll across Gaza City
    Netanyahu approves further strikes in Gaza
    Israel continues to bomb Gaza while Israeli politicians consider further escalation
    Israeli forces injure 1, detain 3 in the West Bank
    And the above was just in a recent six day period.
     
    And an article about Israel’s incitement-to-violence problem, by Israeli journalist Noam Sheizaf (a look at a school book for Jewish Israeli kids):
    http://972mag.com/the-israeli-incitement-problem/
    (Btw, 972 is Israel’s area code. The journalists who write for 972mag are Jewish Israeli or Israeli-American, mostly.)
     
    You promised to view the 2 videos (see below for URLs). Have you forgotten, friend?
     
     
    Here’s part of a video about Theodor Herzl in Hebrew, but with English subtitles, produced by Torah-observant Jews.
     
    Herzl video:
    parts 1 (about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=related
     
    & 5 (also about 10 minutes):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiPbCkUSVD4&feature=related
     
    If you’ll watch these 2 parts & give me your feedback, then I’ll watch the google video that you mentioned (assuming it’s not too long—90 minutes-plus might be too long).
     

    Too little attention is being given to the spirit of Israel’s founding fathers.
     
     
    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

  71. Hi Sheila,

    Two times, March 30 & just now on Apr 1, I submitted a response to you. But each time, when I clicked ‘submit’ nothing happened. I emailed (3/30) to askdr brown asking for their assistance in posting, but still no response. Oh well. What to do?

  72. Three times I’ve submitted posts, but nothing happened. What’s going on?

  73. Sheila,

    I deleted the long comments you put in that were altering the site.

    Jon,

    I approved the comments you submitted, which were flagged as spam, due to the many many links that were in them.

  74. Thanks for fixing it Marcus! I won’t do that again…

    Jon,

    I started working on something a little while back, but, I was holding off until this forum page was working again. I should be back with you in a day or so. I got side tracked in other studies.

    And then, in watching the video (which I did a while back) one thing led to another and that led to scriptures and that led to new revelations and here I am still sorting things out!

    So, give me a day or so. It’s beautiful in South Carolina and I can’t pass up this perfect weather!

  75. Hi Jon,

    I’ve begun triple spacing between paragraphs because I’ve noticed this processor scrunches things up when you submit them. So, if it shows up with even more spacing that’s why.

    On Herzl’ Video:

    What is it you want me to comment on? Is it Herzl’s eventual disdain for his people? The solution he comes up with? Am I to applaud his presumptuous arrogance in these captured sound bites etched in stone? He is praised as a Zionist, I take it, when in fact he was a closet supremacist. I am truly moved by it because it is a very sad commentary on a man who was torn between two worlds. On the one hand, it appears that he entered the enlightenment era with an idealism that forced him to choose between what he saw as the antiquated religiosity of his heritage and the glaring brightness of worldly philosophy and pursuits on the other. Torn between the secular and the divine, even as a professing Christian. There are many national heroes that, if we were to examine their motives and explore every word they ever spoke, we would more likely than not come to loathe them. Sound bites don’t build any defense for the anti-Zionists. So, I can’t say Herzl’s heart wasn’t with his people. I think he had his own demons to slay.

    And, I think it’s more than sad that even in 1893, Herzl was trying to find a way to guard his people against anti-Semitism by masterminding a desperate attempt to come up with “a solution to the Jewish dilemma”. In an obvious effort to protect them, he desired to seek an audience with the Pope, in hopes that the Catholic Church might “aid us against anti-Semitism”, but, later thought to turn to the clergy of Austria in promising them that the mass conversion of the Jews “would not be done in secret”, he says, “as the Jews have been accustomed until now”. No, says Herzl, it will be done with “glory”! I don’t understand his statement of the Jewish religious leaders bringing the people to mass conversion “in fulfillment of their Judaism”. What does he mean, I wonder, by that? He goes on to make a quasi-prophetic statement when he says, “We, the steadfast, are the last generation clinging to our forefathers’ faith.” It’s heartbreaking, because whether they had converted, or not, they would have still been Jews and worthy of death. That’s what saddens me the most. One only needed the least particle of Jewish blood and it was off to the extermination camps for you! After the Holocaust, the vast majority of Jews left their religious beliefs behind and we have the newest generation of Jews who are more secular than at any time in history. It appears that Herzl was more than conflicted, as he was thoroughly entrenched in German culture at the time of his proposed “solution”. (the video says as much) I get the feeling that he ended up ostensibly frustrated with the stubbornness of the Jews in clinging to their national identity even in the face of rabid hatred for them. So, it seems he was not fully German, nor, was he incontrovertibly Christian, and he certainly didn’t want to be Jewish. So, he was a man in limbo, trying to fit in somewhere between heaven and hell. That is what I make of Herzl.

  76. This was supposed to go with the last two paragraphs.

    I also looked into the fate of Herzl’s family members and children; it’s pitiful the end they came to. Of course we know that the vast majority of Jews went the way of secularism and many ultimately gave up on God after WWII. “Where was God during the Holocaust?” That was the question on all of their minds…”Where was God?” Have you contemplated that question? What do you think, why did God allow it? It’s a human response to ask, not that we can really understand the outworkings of the purposes of God, although He does give us His Word “that we may know Him.” But, does the Bible give us any indication of what is yet in store for this remnant that survived? I think it clearly does. And further, I don’t see where it detracts at all from the Lord’s Glory and Holiness. If anything the mass conversion (willingly) of the Jews will Glorify the Father and the Son in all the earth! Remember Mt. Sinai? And, if you don’t see that they are the Apple of God’s eye, well, I am trying to help you with that. ;-) You may need to move out of the NT and back to the Father’s plan for them as I outlined in the many, many prophesies that speak to it. They are in the Father’s sight, most precious. And the Son honors the Father in all things. He will honor His Father in every matter, even while all things are given into His hands. Not one Word will fail that our Father has spoken concerning them. “He will have mercy on whom He will.” Not that any of us deserve it; I’ll gladly claim Christ’s righteousness as my own! Just as He brought them out of Egypt with “a mighty hand and an outstretched arm”, and humbled them, and put the fear of Him in their hearts, “en masse” at Sinai, so, too, I believe He will reveal Himself to them as Messiah when “He sees that their help is gone”. It’s not for me to question God’s plan concerning the remnant of His chosing. I’m just reading the intent of His heart as He made known to us through His prophets.

    Are you thinking this isn’t fair for the Lord to have mercy on them? Are you begrudging them their place in God’s family? There is another element to the story of the Prodigal Son; another way that I’ve recently come to understand it. The older son, (the Christians who have been serving Messiah all along) the one who has attended to his father all the years his brother was absent, is not well pleased that his younger brother (the Jews who are coming into the fold) is being received with open arms and with gifts and a grand celebration. In fact, the younger brother is restored to his place as a son just as he was before he went astray. The father sees the wayward son from a distant and what does he do? He runs to him. “But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” (Luk 15:20) He doesn’t wait on his son to pronounce the ways in which he has sinned against God and the shame he has brought on his father, nor, of the great remorse he feels for all that he has done. He’s not heard any of it yet. But, he takes off running to him. You get the idea that the father was continuously looking in the direction from which his son departed. Looking daily and longing for him in his heart. “Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he my darling child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, declares the LORD.” His father would have had to hike up his garment in order to run and in others eyes it would have brought him profound shame to welcome again the son who disgraced him. This son asked his father to hand over his half of his inheritance, and then he went and squandered it with worldly living and he has the nerve to come back home again? The younger son saw the error of his ways and thought to himself, “I will return to my Father and throw myself upon His mercy, for in my Father’s house there is more than enough for even His servants to enjoy and I am here dying for want.” “For I have sinned against God and against my father.” But, what is the response of the older son? He sees the overflowing joy of his father in welcoming the one who went away from him, and “But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’” (Luke 15:28-32) “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” (Rom. 11:15)

    Let me say it one more time, Jon. I do not believe that all of the Jews in the land of Israel are righteous any more than I believe that all Muslims are evil. Like many Christians, many Muslims practice their religion by rote. They go through the motions because that’s what they learned to do. There will be many Muslims and Aethiests and those in India who worship idols, and people from every tribe and nation who will come to accept Messiah when the trials and tribulations are upon them. The Revelation assures us of that. It also assures us that those who hate God will still not repent! The great multitude that John couldn’t begin to count are yet to come. And it seems, that many who are Christians are yet to be martyred for their faith. And, concerning Muslims, as you pointed out, God did keep His promise to Hagar, in that He made of her son by Abraham a great and mighty nation of Arabs. However, it also clearly says of Abraham’s decendents by Jacob, that “though they be as numerous as the stars” only “a remnant will survive” and will again “be gathered from the nations where the Lord scattered them” and be “brought back to the land of Israel”. Of course, you will say that everything has changed after Messiah and that only those in Christ will inherit the promises. This is true, but, only in this half a century are we beginning to welcome our brothers back in to the fold. The Gospel has gone throughout the world to all of the non-Jewish (the Gentile) nations as far as I can see. And I mean in the broad sense. All of the promises to the brothers of Jesus will be fulfilled just as promised because the Lord is lifting the veil that blinded them. According to the Word of God, this will take place when they occupy the land that was granted to them. And that the Lord’s fold will not be complete without them seems to be what is meant by the Lord’s statement to the Pharisees of His day, and to those, at present, who are still blinded by their tradition, when He states, “You will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.’” The little people, and the prostitutes, the poor, the outcasts all received Him, as did those of the Gentiles, but, those who said, “Do not come near me for I am holier than you” are those He will welcome still. And lets be real. The number of the Arabs, and of the Anglo-saxons and even the Spanish speaking peoples, the Indians are all so very numerous in comparison to the Jews that it would be ridiculous to argue otherwise. The Arabs were never on the brink of extinction, neither were the Whites, so, let’s agree it is something peculiar to the Jews to suffer so profoundly. Has any other race been so hated? Of a truth, no. It’s the longest standing Satanic hatred in the history of mankind! So, there is a remnant, saved by Grace, not of their works, otherwise grace isn’t Grace, who we can rightly acknowledge as such, and who I believe will have the veil removed from their eyes when their earthly help is gone they will cry out to Messiah and He will answer them. And He will answer their enemies in fury and in wrath because they hate the God of the Jews and they seek to carry out this hatred on “the remnant of His seed”. And the spirit of antichrist is alive and well in the heart of the terrorists and in all of those who are incensed against God. “Look around and see, they shall all gather themselves, but it is not My doing: (but it is the spirit of antichrist, which is of Satan) whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.” “No weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall confute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their vindication is from me, declares the LORD.” (Isaiah 54:15,17)

    Concerning Messianic prophesies, they are not always so clearly expounded on as in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. They are for the most part, couched in language describing other events and interspersed in the mundane at times. One that comes to mind is “and I called my son out of Egypt.” Seems benign until you read the NT account of it. And, there are others that the writers attribute to Messiah and that are quoted in the New that are not readily discernable unless you’ve received the NT account as true. So, while Messiah appears in some of the prophesies I pointed out for you, if you read further you’ll see that it takes you beyond the Gospel age and into future events concerning the Jews. That’s just the nature of prophesy and it takes a great deal of reflection and study to discern. Not that I’m any kind of know-it-all. The more I study the more I realize all that I don’t know! Events spoken through the imagery in prophesies are to some just jumbled up ramblings of a man given over to the ecstatic. This is true, but, they speak as the Spirit moves them and it must have been overwhelming for them to try to relate even half of what they were shown. And then, some events are placed “before” the natural order, while others are out of sequence, so, it does take some prayerful consideration and a firm grasp on actual history in order to “rightly divide it.”

    Concerning the prophesy you pointed out with the weapons used for fuel, I admit to not understanding it fully, but, I didn’t want to doctor the text by only chosing certain verses. I thought to let them speak for themselves. How will they make fuel out of modern tanks and missles? I asure you that I haven’t a clue! Got any ideas? I don’t feel it negates the entire prophesy, it just makes you think of what the remnant will recover after their enemies are destroyed. The dead will apparently be so numerous that it will take quite a good while to bury them. I guess we’ll see how that plays out. One thing we must admit as true, is that prophesy and the entire Bible revolves around “Jerusalem”, the “city where the Lord has placed His Name there, forever.”

  77. Hi Jon,

    I have to admit, the second video is even more chilling and so much sadder than the first. I’m honestly still digesting it. I’ve watched it several times, although I have to admit that I haven’t checked out the veracity of it yet, but, I doubt you would have included it otherwise. And it brings to mind something my history professor brought up, this was decades ago. During the war, a boatload of those fleeing Germany came to the coast of America and we turned them back… I’ll never forget my heartache upon hearing that. I was dumbfounded. It wasn’t until I went to college that I heard the first thing about the Holocaust. Apparently I was absent the day they discussed it in high school. I’m being facetious, of course. No one talked about it. No one I came in contact with before then ever said a word. It baffles me, even now, that I was ignorant until then. And what’s more, my foster parents were both of German descent. Not a word. Perhaps they were ashamed, especially being Christians. Perhaps they determined it wasn’t for my young mind to discover yet. Unfortunately, I was never able to ask either one of them. When the knowledge of the greatest evil ever perpetuated on one particular people came, it pierced my heart in a single blow, sending me reeling, emotionally staggering for something to hold on to. I’ll remember the first knowledge of it and that specific day for the rest of my life. Unimaginable sorrow and confusion concerning how in the world evil could magnify itself to such an extent in the heart of one man. Of course I’m not discounting the other “horns” that partook of it in great measure also. Six Million Jews and Ten Million souls in total (God knows the ones we missed counting) in, seemingly, one fell swoop! I was amazed that such profound evil had escaped my radar in previous years. “Am I alone in my outrage” was all I could think of? I was totally out of sorts for days on end. As if it had just happened recently, like the day before I learned of it. There must have been a veil dropped over the entire world at the time these souls were perishing–what else could it have been? A chasm must have opened up and everyone’s moral outrage fell into it. And, it’s true. I asked in my heart, “Why, God, why?” “Can there really even be a God?” “Where was He?” Now I know. He has been bearing for a long time, the vessels fitted for destruction, in order that Messiah will gain all the more. The day is coming soon when the “times of the Gentiles” will be fulfilled. And the transgressors cups will be full.

    n my bringing to mind these things, it reminds me, too, of being a young child and walking in on my parents and their friends who were crying over the assassination of President Kennedy. I was very young, I must have been only seven and it was so unusual to find them so thoroughly undone and broken that I burst into tears before even knowing what it was that caused it. So, right then and there entered the first graphic evidence of the evil that was lurking “out there”. And then, the next rude awakening came when I stumbled across pictures of the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At the time, though, I had no idea of the Holocaust carried out in that same war. Viewing those pictures, now it was I who was broken. The many scenes of the gross devastation, of people walking about stunned and silent with their skin just hanging in pieces, and the ghostly outline of those forever etched across bridges and on the ground just chilled me to the marrow and haunted me for weeks, maybe months; yes, I see them even now. I would never see the world the same way again. I grew up in an instant. Gone was the idea that this was a wonderfully beautiful world, such as children are want to imagine it is. No more was I ever going to be just a young girl playing with her friends. I was now on guard against my fellow man because I never knew in whose heart evil had come to reside. And I couldn’t quite shake the feeling that it was waiting around every corner. Was it we who dropped the bombs that were evil, or, was it those we were fighting that were evil. I determined it must be both. Of course, I came to take life very seriously and to apply myself to never let “pure-T” evil get a hold on me. I would discern it before it “got me” was what I had the presense of mind, and was absolutely determined, to do. And, to this day, I am overly sensitive when encountering it. Just as you said, Jon, of discerning the intent of another’s spirit. Of course, being subtle, “it” located me eventually in the form of alcohol. Yes, very enticing it can be. But, then, the Lord brought me to my knees when I set out to find Him. I always said I believed in God and in Jesus; after all, I was raised in church and I had my confirmation Bible with my name on it (which I still have although it’s falling apart) and I went through the motions thinking I was “good enough” and that Jesus was some nice Savior who let everybody that was “good” into some place called Heaven! Boy, was I mistaken when I found out who He really was, and in the process “what” I really was! So, yes, evil is more pervasive and persuasive and elusive than we can sometimes recognize, let alone guard against. I see I’ve gotten way off track. Anyway, you now know a little more about who you are talking to. I am far from immune to human suffering. Every bit of it affects me deeply.

    But, I have to declare a spade a spade and the motives of some of those founding the movement to Zion cannot be classified as noble in the least. I would say self-serving and emotionally void and detached beyond my ability to ferret it out. Praise God that He can work good from evil and that His purposes will prevail in spite of our fallen nature and the god of this world that we wrestle with. We know how the story ends, though! With a song to the Lamb of God!

    And so, to sum it up. I would never, and could not, agree that two wrongs would ever make a right. I will, also, call it as I see it. I see the murderous intent of those opposed to the One True God and to His purposes. I see it clearly in the heart of terrorists, such as Hamas, Hezbollah and al Qaida. I do not see the same spirit in Israel’s defense of itself. They are not operating from a mindset of murderous rage that I can see. They do not seek the total destruction of their enemies. They don’t export terror to every part of the globe. War is horrendous and more often than not, it’s the innocent that die. However, I certainly don’t think it’s coincidence that they are locked together in a battle with the death of Israel as the only possible outcome that would satisfy these terrorist organizations. (I just finished reading the Hamas Charter on line) Allah has set himself up, in the minds of the Muslims, in place of God. Can you see that? He has blinded the minds of the Arabs who claim that it is Allah who is God. Their god is not our God. Is there any Arab nation that is not Muslim? I don’t know of any off hand. I see the current conflict as being of supernatural origin and it is playing out as such. It is the “old hatred” that has found a home “somewhere” since the book of Genesis. I don’t see the average every day Muslim as vicious, but, the fruit that the writings of the Quran and of Muhammed certainly seem to be bearing a more than ample supply of rotten fruit. And to say that because Israel is a nation of secularists, for the most part, is no reason to deny them the right to defend themselves. Even if they are, as you suggested, a “false Israel.” Then, how is it that “Palestine is real?”

    I don’t see it as coincidental that the same ones who hate the Jews hate Christians. The same hatred for Israel is directed at America. If you had to try to explain it in human terms you would say it was because of all the evil America did during the course of our 200+ years as a war power nation. But, is that the whole truth? And if it is, then where does the inordinate hatred for the Lord’s brothers come from? Why the Jews? They certainly had no army that could have been blamed for warring with their neighbors because they had no nation to defend until 1948. Why have they been persecuted from city to city, country to country, for over two thousand years? And do you see any way out for them other than Divine Intervention? How long would any Peace Agreement possibly last, this side of the Millennium? Maybe until the day after Israel lays down it’s weapons. That’s how I see it, Jon. The Church has specific blessings promised to us as the Body of Christ. However, we can’t go so far as to say, “We are Israel.” He has enemies and one in particular that would love for the Word of God to fail. We discussed this before. We both agree that none of them will. So, considering the manifest blessings bestowed on the Church, why do we feel compelled to claim those belonging to Israel proper? Isn’t it enough to have received of the root that bears us ingrafted branches? Must we see ourselves as less beloved because the Lord has a heart for Israel? What is it to us, really? I am more than happy with my portion, I’ll not try to steal someone else’s.

    I’ve not been able to buy your book, Jon, but, did you come up with a solution in it? If you did, without giving the entire plot away, could you state it briefly? Because I am not opposed to a well thought out solution. It seems the PLO wants nothing less than to remove Israel completely. How does that solution sit at the negotiating table? Has there ever been a cease fire since Israel was established? Honestly, I don’t know. I can only devote so much time to searching out answers to all aspects of this discussion, as other persuits are falling behind. So, in fact, I’d truly like to hear your ideas on it. And, unlike many, I am not opposed to a two-state solution. I just honestly don’t see it as an option for the PLO to save face. They seem to have dug themselves into a dead end with their stated position concerning Israel.

    I would like to hear, too, your thoughts on the video. I will be slow in my responses as I’ve committed to working on finishing two questions from another forum.

  78. Hi Sheila,
    Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I was especially touched by your April 8th post. My father was involved in alcoholism from about 1966 to 1976, so I sympathize with you, friend. He was able to break the habit for the last 15 or so years of his life & I’m immensely proud of him for that. (Btw, it appears that you & I are approx. the same age.) To me, the Ezek 39: 3,9,10,20 prophecy declaring that Israel won’t need to gather firewood for a long time pretty much has to mean that Israel wouldn’t need to gather firewood for a long time. ;);) Every word God spoke is flawless. Survey sa-a-ys—Hoo Hoo!! (Prov 30:5-6) Sadly, you use your passionate assertions as to the remnant’s identity to replace argument. So far, there’s no summing up or attempt to prove why modern Israel is the Israel of the Bible. If Satan got wind through The Angel Grapevine that God was planning to bring the Jews to the Holy Land in, say, 2189, wouldn’t he love to trick us with the counterfeit Zionist movement in the 20th century? When you declared that you wouldn’t view the Finkelstein lecture— although Jas 1.19 doesn’t suggest but rather commands that we be quick to listen, so you were neither quick nor did you even listen at all— as an unfortunate consequence, throughout our ensuing dialogue, this sin cascaded forward into a number of ahistorical assertions and/or misreadings of historical evidence about Muslims supposedly being enemies of the Jews & occasionally even into misunderstanding of my own motives. (I’m not mad at you, btw). But, were Americans anti-European for fighting the Brits? Were we anti-Northerner in invading Canada back then? And what about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? Were they anti-white, Sheila? Were Iraqis anti-white in defending against our invasion? Were they Christian-haters? Were Haitians racist bigots for resisting our invasion(s)? Were Filipinos anti-white when they resisted our conquering forces a century ago? If China conquered the USA, would our forceful resistance to their military absolutely prove we were anti-Oriental? When each of the 50 states resisted with violence, would Beijing triumphantly crow about the 50 (count em, fifty!) verifiable evidences of our bloodthirsty irrational vicious anti-Orientalism? We need to be on our guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luk. 12:1b)

    As far as I recall, whenever I refute your assertions/inferences that Muslims are motivated by religious hatred rather than being politically motivated by rage against theft, murderous & grossly disproportionate violence (3 Israeli civilians killed versus around a thousand Palestinian civilians killed during Cast Lead, to take one out of many documented examples) and Israel’s refusal to make peace with them (more on the latter, below), you’re silent. Muslims & Christians in the Holy Land aren’t enemies of Jews; they’re enemies of their warmongering oppressors, Israel’s government.

    Btw, why did I discover only on April 8th that, according to Israel’s right-wing newspaper, the Itamar killings were perpetrated by a Thai employee of the Fogels who was owed a lot of back pay? I saw nothing about this in the Western press.
    See this Jerusalem Post article, published on 3/14/11:
    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212115
    What did the Israeli government do about the Itamar atrocities?
    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/
    3-14-11 blog entry entitled:
    Israeli Settler Minister: We Published Pictures of Corpses for Hasbara
    in which Silverstein comments on the following article:
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/why-did-israel-release-bloody-images-of-the-family-slain-in-itamar-1.349254

    Excerpts from Silverstein:
    “Minister of Public Diplomacy and Diaspora Affairs Yuli Edelstein is the one who made the unprecedented decision to release [pictures of the dead Fogels].
    [Haaretz interviewer:] ‘Do you think this sort of publicity can change Israel’s image?
    [Yuli Edelstein:] ‘People who deal more with information sent quite a few supportive messages. I know that on the Internet the images are really catching on and circulating. It’s hard to talk about in terms of success, because we all understand that this is an unbelievably heinous crime. But it does have an important impact.’
    [Silverstein:] What astonishes is an Israeli minister publicly admitting that he’s exploiting the dead for the propaganda value of their images. This is one of the worst sins Judaism can imagine: exploitation of the dead. It’s a hillul ha-Shem, a desecration of the divine name. Edelstein, who is a settler himself and Orthodox Jew, has allowed Israel to become his religion, while abandoning his actual religion. [emphasis added]
    [RS continues:] ”The Ashrey prayer says: “the dead will not praise God…but we [the living] will bless Him from now and forever.” Not so in this perverse version of Judaism (or perhaps I should use Bernard Avishai’s apt term, Judeanism, to distinguish this from real Judaism), in which the dead don’t praise God, but rather Israel.”
    And a snippet or two from the above Haaretz interview itself:
    [Edelstein:] “….we are not like them, we are not like the Palestinians….. It is true that we [Israelis] have experienced quite a few horrors, but at the same time, slaughtering an entire family in their sleep, including children and an infant is, thank God – even according to the standards of these wicked people – something out of the ordinary.”

    But Sheila, the day before Haaretz published this interview on March 15th, the Jerusalem Post published the above article blaming a Thai for the killings.

    juancole.com, April 23, 2008 blog entry:”The Israeli Right is always going on about threats to Israel’s existence, even though it is the most powerful country in the Middle East. But no one ever brings up its strangulation of the Palestinian nation, its siege of Gaza, its dispossession of the West Bankers. The right makes an imagined future threat the basis for actual victimization of others in the present. America’s security is deeply threatened by the ongoing Israeli colonization projects in the Middle East, as should have been clear for some time.” [emphasis added]

    And if as you suggest Muslims have been at enmity with Jews throughout history, I relax, I put my hands behind my head, (I’d open a bag of Doritos if I had any ;) & I wait for your list of anti-Jewish pogroms done by Christians Muslims. And don’t forget the expulsions of Jews from Christian Muslim lands, friend, or that Shoah done by Hitler of Christian Germany the horrible Saudis, the Taliban or others . Although, in fairness to you, if Muslims have historically been Jew-haters, this should be quite easy to demonstrate. In other words, when Muslims were in power, they wouldn’t have kept their anti-Semitism bottled up inside themselves. No, they would have acted out their hate. Would you like to provide some evidence of actions taken against Jews (such as invasions of modern Israel; airstrikes against Jewish areas, including Israel and/or population centers worldwide; forced mass conversions of Jews to Islam; incendiary vicious virulent inciteful speeches not against Israel but against Jews per se, followed by pogroms carried out against world Jewry). While you’re at it, can you list all the Muslim holocausts? Quoting the Koran isn’t what I’m looking for, for the simple reason that if the Koran is anti-Semitic (& possibly it is!) then okay, what have been the practical results of that hatred since Mohammed went down to The Bad Place? If the Koran is actually hateful towards Jews or Christians or both in a physically violent way, please pray that Muslims will continue not to notice what it says, as happened for most of the last 1,300 years or so!!

    Christians decry the Koran for its ‘slay the unbelievers wherever you find them’, but how did the Church respond to the Albigensian heresy in southern France? “…Innocent III declared a crusade against the Albigenses and set the nobility of northern France against that of the south in a bloody civil war that was to last for twenty years. Early in this crusade the papal legate to southern France was said to have uttered the words: ‘Slay all. God will know his own.’” (Dogs of God: Columbus, the Inquisition, and the Defeat of the Moors, James Reston, Jr., Doubleday, 2005, p. 10). In another of his books, the same author writes: “The Third Crusade [1187-1192] was Holy War at its most virulent. Inevitably there was much about it that was unholy, indeed, sacrilegious: the pogroms of the Jews [by Christians!], the lust for booty, the effusions of greed, the fighting and killing for their own sake—-all in the name of piety. Here Holy War was in its infancy but practiced at the height of its ferocity. In the first instance it was a Christian Holy War that was met in response and in reaction by the Muslim concept of jihad. Jihad is, by definition, a defensive concept, conditioned upon the provocation of an unbelieving aggressor. In the Koran the believer is called upon ‘to fight in the way of God with those who fight with you…but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors’ (2:190). From this holy and defensive fighting, great heavenly rewards will flow. And so it is an irony of history that today, the word ‘jihad’ strikes fear in the hearts of many Westerners and Western governments who associate it with terrorism and Islamic fanaticism. But there is nothing in Islamic history that rivals the terror of the Crusades or the Christian fanaticism of the twelfth century” (emphasis added. Warriors of God: Richard the Lionheart and Saladin in the Third Crusade, Faber & Faber, 2001, pp. xviii-xix).

    And if our standard is to judge by the words in their holy book—–“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matt 7:2—- then judge the Jews by the words about Gentiles in their sacred writings, rabbinical pronouncements & other comments. “If most educated Americans heard the raving against “ha-aravim” (the Arabs) that goes on among West Bank settlers, they’d be completely taken aback by the bigoted terms of reference. Much of such Likudnik discourse is not different in kind from what one hears from the Ku Klux Klan about minorities in this country.” (from juancole.com 11-2-04 blog entry).

    Whatever standard we use to judge others will be used to judge us or our cohorts, according to Mt 7:2. It can be shown that Israeli rabbis & settlers are hateful & vicious towards Gentiles. For instance:
    http://972mag.com/incitement-and-violence-a-week-on-the-israeli-slippery-slope/
    by Dror Feuer April 2, 2011
    published originally at the following Israeli site:
    http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000634499
    translated from the Hebrew by Shir Harel
    Excerpts:
    “Dozens of cases [of incitement] in only the last several days. They [ie, settlers] throw stones, they beat people up, and not only with their hands but with iron rods too. They stab, they uproot trees, they burn cars, they light sheep on fire. Yes, you read that right. And not only in the occupied territories, but throughout the country. And not only settlers, by the way.
    “Evidence about pogroms against Arabs are piling up and adding up, in Bnei Brak, Safed, everywhere really, and Official Israel does nothing. Sometimes the police’s excuse for why they don’t arrest rioters is that they don’t want to contribute to a “flare-up in the area.” Yes, that’s exactly what they say.
    “ ….They [ie, the incidents] are a direct result of a system of values which is based on hate, racism and a twisted sense of justice.”

    So why aren’t we aggressively questioning the Jews & attempting to incite aggression against or dominance over them? We-e-ell never mind, right?. So how’s the weather where you are today? How’s the garden coming along? ;)

    Also see Zeev Maoz, Defending the Holy Land, mentioned in the first paragraph of my 3-21 post. Not one of Israel’s wars, says Maoz, with the possible exception of the 1948 war, was a war of self-defense. All were wars of choice. This from an establishment Israeli scholar.

    Seek justice, encourage the oppressed (or, ‘rebuke the oppressor’ according to the NIV footnote’s alternate reading). Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. See Isa 1.17. May I rebuke the oppressor? May I encourage the oppressed? How would focusing intently and malevolently on the reactive biting and scratching of victims while ignoring their attackers be encouraging to them? There have been 57 major massacres perpetrated in the past 63 years by Israel. See the list at
    http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?t=24151

    “He [ie, the ideal righteous king] will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor…For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death. He will rescue them from oppression and violence, for precious is their blood in his sight.” Psa 72:4, 12-14

    History matters to God. Four decades after the mass murder by Manasseh, God still hadn’t forgiven the King. 2 Kings 24:3-4: “Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done [40-plus years before], including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the Lord was not willing to forgive.” Also see 2 Ki. 23:26-27 & 2 Ki 21:6 and esp vs 16.

    Sheila, the crafty serpent fought against you and me & the church by designing a movement that was diametrically opposed to the very group that you hold in high esteem, viz the so-called remnant!!!

    You missed my intent with the Herzl video which was to show you that very spirit. The Zionists viewed every human being politically. To them, all people are nothing but political tools.

    To repeat from my last post:
    ‘Too little attention is being given to the spirit of Israel’s founding fathers.’

    (Did I mention a while back that my spiritual gift is ‘distinguishing between spirits’?)

    Did you notice the following insight into their evil spirit that I cited a few posts back?
    “Since the existence of Zionism, one constant trend of thought has been the direction of Weizmann, Greenbaum, Sharett, Ben Gurion, Ehrenpreisz, Kastner, Stephen Wise, the councils in the ghettoes, and the rescue committees of the free world: ‘The only yearning was for the State. The [Jewish] people as a whole, or a segment thereof, were merely the means for the realization of a homeland. Whoever did not serve this purpose [--------even observant Jews-------] might as well not have been created’.”
    Source:
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/resources/onlinebooks/Holocaust%20Victims%20Accuse.pdf

    Sadly, this includes devout Jews, Sheila!

    Consequently, as part 5 of the Herzl video shows, Zionists chose to save from the Shoah only the secular Jews.
    David Ben-Gurion quotes:
    “The dying exiles being rounded up in Israel are not yet tantamount to a nation, but to subhuman riff-raff, with no language, no education, no roots. Transforming humanoid raw-material into a cultural nation is no easy task.” quote from DBG’s book Uniqueness and Purpose. Elsewhere he said: “The Land of Israel is in need of selective immigration. Zionism is not a philanthropy. Here we need Jews of the superior type, who’ll develop the national home.” The Herzl video, part 4 @ 0:17
    (This was called ‘selektzia’ in Hebrew).

    David Ben-Gurion stated: “If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter—-because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People.”
    Source:

    (Righteous Victims, by Israeli historian Benny Morris, p. 162).

    In the beginning of part 5 of the Herzl video that you saw, the Gruenwald vs Kastner Trial is mentioned. The present paragraph is sourced elsewhere (see below): The Zionist Malchiel Gruenwald, a Holocaust survivor, accused Hungarian Zionist Rudolph Kastner of having collaborated with the Nazis during WWII. So the Israeli government (RK was its Ministry of Trade & Industry spokesman) sued for libel and the trial was held before an Israeli court. Judge Benjamin Halevi presided. After a long & tempestuous trial, the verdict came down. Gruenwald was declared not guilty of libel, and the judge even told Kastner: “You have sold your soul to the devil.”
    Sources:
    The wikipedia article on Rudolph Kastner
    And the Rudolph Kastner Trial Transcripts (in Hebrew) from the Israeli government archives:
    The entire transcript is available here:
    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/tohen.asp?id=409

    and here (with all the protocols):
    http://www.archives.gov.il/ArchiveGov/ArchiveNavigation.aspx?ID=30.0.50

    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/tohen.asp?id=409

    Doesn’t the Word tell us to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness but rather expose them? (Eph 5:11). I wonder why every Christian whom I’ve contacted to seek a translator of the transcripts hasn’t responded at all.

    Itzhak Greenbaum, Ben-Gurion’s Minister of Interior, declared in 1943: “When they asked me, ‘can you not use Keren HaYesod [United Jewish Appeal] funds to rescue Jews in Diaspora?’ I said ‘No!’ and I repeat ‘No!’ It is incumbent that we withstand this wave which is pushing the Zionist agenda into second rank. When offered two proposals: the rescue of multitudes of Jews in Europe, or the redemption in Israel, I choose without one moment of hesitation the redemption in Israel. Zionism supersedes all.” Herzl video, part 4 @ 1:27

    From the Shomer’s guide, printed by The Shomer Union, Israel, December 1956: “How to Deal with Religious Youngsters”:
    “Among our youngsters, we’re encountering significant numbers that are religious, especially in the guided youth in the immigrant transit-camps. Obviously our goal is to make them aware that their faith in God is illogical and unreasonable, since religion is the fruit of reactionist dictatorships, and has no raison d’etre among those who fight for the progressive realm.” Herzl video, part 6 @ 4:42

    “…erasing [partly by the Shoah??] the Diaspora-Jew became a fundament in defining the new [Jewish] identity [that the Zionists sought to develop].” part 3 @ 5:07

    Paraphrase: Herzl wanted to build a Jewish state with no trace of Judaism. part 2 @ 2:38

    They saw orthodox Jews as irrational backward fanatics that, if saved from Hitler, would breed too much like fleas. (???!!!????!!!!!!!) Perhaps you noticed this in part 1 or 5 of the video. (Whereas in fact many of them were deeply impressive people!)

    If someone discerns Satan’s crafty scheme, you misread me as being one-sided or ungenerous/unwilling to accept into the fold those you mistakenly continue to refer to as the remnant. I’m a Gentile member of the remnant. So are you, sister. So are Messianic Israelis. And Palestinian believers too. And if, by your lights, I’m still mistaken in assuming that the remnant is the church universal, don’t be shy ;);) about sharing your reasons why we can be sure that post-1948 Israel or a segment thereof is predicted in the prophecies that you cited.

    God isn’t laid-back towards those who presumptuously work against Him. Yes, he’s patient with the wayward as you say, but his record in dealing with presumption is clearly one of quickly-kindled fury (see Ex 32.27-29, Num 14.41-45, Num 16 (the whole chapter), Num 25.1-13).

    Would God embrace a predominantly secular & irreligious people as his own flock simply because he foreknew that many years hence their descendants would turn their hearts toward him? I could see him embracing them after they humbled themselves & put their faith in him, but are there any historical examples (in Scripture or otherwise) where he did as you suggest? See Psa 105:42-45, esp vs 45; Deut 29:18-20 & also Jer 7:3-11. If the sinner in Deut 27:17 is cursed for moving a boundary stone, why would He bless expropriating property? “But you [ie, God] remain the same” Psa 102:27a.

    Would God accept a movement that aggressively persecuted, rooted out & allowed God-fearers to be murdered in large numbers as Israel’s founding fathers did?

    If Moses whipped out a Number 2 pencil and filled out a job application for Leader of the Exodus, stating his intention, in the ‘What are your goals for the next five years?’ essay section, to hound & persecute God’s ‘worthless’ followers & to ensure that they got drowned in the Red Sea by tricking them with a sham order to stay put on the seabed until, uhm, well until either the camels sprout wings or, uhm, let’s see, h-m-m-m, how ‘bout until Moses’s fave mule (Purvis? Junior? Booger? Jackass?) stood up on his hind legs, held a cactus firmly in his teeth, headed a conga line consisting of desert critters, & then proudly farted the Egyptian National Anthem—–poor desert critters! poor downwind desert critters.

    HIPPO: “Cough. Did something—cough—crawl up your—cough COUGH— fanny and DIE??!!??….[Wheeze]…Jiminy…[HACK] Get me outta here, Buford.”

    BOOGER, coldly: “It’s Booger. Name’s Booger.”

    HIPPO….[GASP]….“Whatever. ….[projectile vomiting]…More like ‘Stinkbug,’ I’d say.”

    BOOGER, sarcastically: “Wiseacre.”

    HIPPO: “Birdbrain.”

    MOSES, rushing over to break up the ensuing donnybrook: “Guys!….G-U-U-Y-Y-S-S!!…..Break it up…..Stop biting my robe!!….Awright, that’s ENOUGH!!”

    HIPPO, soon laying down, peacefully munching on a mule leg: “M-M-M-M-m-m-m-m-m……………………….D-r-u-m-s-t-i-ck….m-m-m-m-m……burp.”

    BOOGER: “Alright, I’ve HAD it. I quit! I’m going back to Egypt. Say, Moses, couldja hail a cab for me? And how about springing for the cab fare, after all the pullin’ & carryin’ that trusty ol’ me has done for you all these years?”

    MOSES hails the cab & helps his less-legged-than-before beast into the chariot, wiping away a tear or two. “Gonna miss ya, Booger. [Sniffle] ‘Member that time I was riding you & we saw that fabulous Egyptian babe & you just spontaneously stopped & bowed down on your knees to her?…[Cries]….She actually TALKED to me!…….. [Recovering his composure, says to the cabbie:] Hey, great tie! Take him to the animal shelter in Goshen…… And don’t stop off at any bars on the way there.”

    As the chariot rides off into the sunset & Israelite bodies cover the entire surface of the Red Sea, would God respond casually, “’Kay, so, ah, when can you start?” Would He bless Tel Aviv, in other words, Sheila? “Can a corrupt throne be allied with [God] —- one that brings on misery by its decrees? They band together against the righteous and condemn the innocent [Shoah victims] to death.” Psa. 94:20-21

    Say-y-y, Sheila, these animal crackers are great! ;)

    More on the demonic spirit of those who thought that anybody they couldn’t use as their political tools might as well not exist, including God-fearers:
    http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm
    Excerpt:
    CHOMSKY: …’ I think partly that the Holocaust did have an effect [in reducing American anti-Semitism]. It brought out the horrifying consequences of anti-Semitism in a way that certainly is striking. I presume, I can’t prove this, but there must be, at least I hope there is, a kind of guilt feeling involved, because the role of the United States during the Holocaust was awful, before and during. They didn’t act to save Jews, and they could have in many respects. The role of the Zionist organization is not very pretty either….There was an immigration bill, the Stratton bill, which I think admitted about 400,000 people, if I remember, to the United States, very few Jews among them…. That’s not a very pretty sight…… It was a matter of saving the survivors, and we didn’t do it. I should say the Zionist organization didn’t support it either, they didn’t even lobby for the bill. The only Jewish organizations that lobbied for the admission of Jewish refugees to the United States were the non-Zionist or the anti-Zionist organizations. The reason was that they wanted to send them off to Palestine….. The Zionist organization wants to force them to go to Israel. Most of them, especially from the European parts of Russia, want to come to the United States, and all sorts of pressures are being brought to bear to prevent that…..”

    Is it true that Israel never had a partner for peace? Please examine the historical record:
    http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2010/11/israel-chomsky-obama
    Excerpt:
    “That the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world’s conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement. In this case, not only is it possible, but there is near-universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognised (pre-June 1967) borders – with “minor and mutual modifications”, to adopt official US terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s.
    “The basic principles have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (which call for the full normalisation of relations), the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (including Iran) and relevant non-state actors (including Hamas). A settlement along these lines was first proposed at the UN Security Council in January 1976 and backed by the major Arab states. Israel refused to attend. The United States vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980. The record at the General Assembly since is similar.
    “But there was one important and revealing break in US-Israeli rejectionism. After the failed Camp David agreements in 2000, President Clinton recognised that the terms he and Israel had proposed were unacceptable to any Palestinians. That December, he proposed his “parameters”: imprecise but more forthcoming. He then stated that both sides had accepted the parameters, while expressing reservations.
    “Israeli and Palestinian negotiators met in Taba, Egypt, in January 2001 to resolve the differences and were making progress. At their final press conference, they reported that, with more time, they could probably have reached full agreement. Israel called off the negotiations prematurely, however, and official progress was then terminated, though informal discussions at a high level continued, leading to the Geneva Accord, rejected by Israel and ignored by the US. Much has happened since but a settlement along those lines is still not out of reach, if Washington is once again willing to accept it. Unfortunately, there is little sign of that.”

    “Occasionally words must serve to veil the facts. But this must happen in such a way that no one become aware of it; or, if it should be noticed, excuses must be at hand, to be produced immediately.” —— Machiavelli

    http://www.redress.cc/americas/ahart20100905
    Excerpts:
    “…one of the most eminent Jewish gentlemen of our time [is] Henry Siegman. A former national director of the American Jewish Congress, he is president of the US/Middle East Project, which was part of the Council on Foreign Relations from 1994 until 2006 when it was established as an independent policy institute. He is also a research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Programme of the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. During his more than 30 years of involvement in the Middle East peace process, he has published extensively on the subject and has been consulted by governments, international agencies and non-governmental organizations involved in the peace process.
    “…On 16 August [2010] in a piece for the Huffington Post which was originally published by the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz in Hebrew, Siegman added this:
    “Most Israelis, particularly the present government, have been blithely indifferent to repeated international condemnations of Israel’s systematic theft of Palestinian territory on which it has been settling its own Jewish population in blatant violation of international law. Yet their reaction to what they see as an attack on the “legitimacy” of the State of Israel, a concept foreign to international law, seems to bring them to the edge of hysteria.

    “In fact, Israel’s legitimacy within its 1967 borders has never been challenged by the international community. It is its behavior on territory beyond its own borders to which the international community – including every US administration – has objected. To construe the condemnation of violations of international law as anti-Semitism is absurd.” (emphasis added)

    The reason you still believe that Hamas et al don’t seek peace is, in part, that you declare you won’t listen to the evidence.

    But in fairness to you, Sheila, partly it’s because the news is often filtered. And the selectivity is so subtle that even Dr. Brown himself, a very wise & well-educated believer who’s in the front lines in the battle against Satan, was fooled once. For the details, see my forum post dated 3-11-11 @ 3:17am (I posted twice that day, so make sure you pick the one at 3:17am). Scroll down to the almost very bottom, to the section entitled “My letter to Michael Brown on Feb 14, 2011” regarding a MEMRI video he posted on Voice of Revolution. Here’s an excerpt of that letter below:
    “There’s nothing wrong with exposing Arab racism, but in light of our ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:16ff), & in light of the equally virulent racism of Jewish extremists alluded to in paragraph 4 of Prof. Cole’s blog above, I suggest that the godly thing to do is to ignore both Arabs who hate Jews & Jews who hate Arabs (hating Arabs is anti-Semitic, too) and instead to focus on moderate figures in both camps. (I could understand some push-back on that point if Arabs have a history of slaughtering & oppressing Jews. Germans have such a history, but Muslims not only don’t, but on the contrary they have a history of treating Jews far more humanely than Christians did.) Would African Americans in the 1950s & ‘60s have been interested in reconciling with whites if they’d been manipulated into believing that all whites thought like the KKK? Similarly, would whites have sought rapprochement if they’d been schooled to think that blacks just wanted to cut throats & rape virgins? MEMRI’s purpose in this video is evil, Dr. Brown. They want to hinder reconciliation with misrepresentations about Arabs to incite Americans’ enmity. Let’s seek peace and pursue it (Ps. 34:14), brothers and sisters, by refusing to participate in bearing false witness against our neighbors. And who are our neighbors? Every single person on this planet is our neighbor.
    “…so that in every way [we] will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.” (Titus 2:10b) and “so that we may not offend them” [ie, unbelievers]. (Matt. 17:27a)”
    Btw, still no answer to my letter from Dr Brown’s staff.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html
    Excerpt:
    “During Operation Cast Lead… “a dog – an Israeli dog – was killed by a Qassam rocket and it [was] on the front page of the most popular newspaper in Israel. On the very same day, there were tens of Palestinians killed, they were on page 16, in two lines.”

    Also, Lisa Goldman’s prize-winning essay on Israel’s media coverage of Cast Lead:
    http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/covering_gaza_from_israel_1.php?page=1

    And US media filtering is described @:
    http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2011/03/mcclatchy-sacramento-bee-darrell.html

    http://israelpalestinenews.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/israeli-army-strikes-gaza-after-school-bus-hit-%E2%80%93-deconstructed/
    Israeli army strikes Gaza after school bus hit – Deconstructed
    First, let’s look at what has happened in Gaza in the past week:
    • On Friday, April 1, Israeli forces assassinated a 24-year-old member of a Palestinian resistance group in Gaza.
    • On Saturday, April 2, the Israeli air force assassinated three members of the group.
    • On Tuesday, April 5, Israeli forces shot dead a Palestinian in northern Gaza, reportedly unarmed and not part of any resistance groups.
    • On Wednesday, April 6, at dawn Israeli forces bombarded Gaza in three air strikes, injuring four people, including two women (one of them pregnant) and a child.
    • On Wednesday afternoon hundreds of children in Gaza participated in a march asking the international community to protect them against ongoing Israeli raids and attacks.
    • On Wednesday night the Israeli Air Force bombarded several areas of Gaza, causing extensive damage; at least one resident was injured.
    • On Thursday morning, April 7, the resistance group that had suffered four assassinations fired mortars at a nearby Israeli town, which injured two people on an almost empty school bus, the bus driver and the one student (16) who hadn’t already been dropped off.
    • Thursday at noon Israeli forces bombarded Gaza, killing five people and injuring over 40.
    • Thusday evening Palestinian resistance forces all agreed to a ceasefire to try to prevent the violence from increasing.
    • Israel ignored this and continued its air strikes against Gaza, killing still more Gazans.
    • In all, Israeli forces killed 14 people within 24 hours and injured dozens.

    • Among those killed were a mother, her 21-year-old daughter, and an elderly man.

    Following is how AP reported on this. This story is on hundreds of newspaper websites around the country:

    Israeli army strikes Gaza after school bus hit
    By MATTI FRIEDMAN
    JERUSALEM (AP) Israeli aircraft and ground forces struck Gaza on Friday, killing two Hamas gunmen and three civilians
    —–[Deconstructed:] No mention in either the headline or the lead paragraph that Israeli forces killed a total of 14 people in the past 24 hours, including a mother, her daughter (injured another of her children), and an elderly man, and that they injured dozens of others.

    in a surge of fighting sparked by a Palestinian rocket attack on an Israeli school bus the day before.
    —–[Deconstructed:] No mention that this rocket attack was sparked by Israeli forces killing five Gazans in the preceding few days.

    Just over two years after rocket fire from Gaza triggered
    —–Israel had already broken the cease fire three times, killing seven Palestinian, which is what triggered the rocket fire.

    a devastating Israeli military offensive in the territory,
    —–which killed approximately 1400 Palestinians, at least 773 of them civilians – hundreds of them children.

    Israel and Gaza’s Hamas rulers seemed on the brink of another round of intense violence.
    —–AP still chooses not to mention the five Palestinians in Gaza that Israeli forces had killed in preceding days.

    In Thursday’s attack, Gaza militants hit an Israeli school bus near the border with a guided anti-tank missile, injuring the driver and badly wounding a 16-year-old boy. Most of the schoolchildren on the bus got off shortly before the attack.
    By Friday morning, Israel’s ongoing retaliation
    —–AP calls the Israeli action retaliation (for two injured, one with minor injuries) but fails to note that the rocket attack was retaliation (for the killing of five people).

    had killed 10 Gazans – five militants, a policeman and four civilians – and wounded 45. The dead Friday included three civilians killed by Israeli tank fire and two militants killed in an air strike, both near the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis.
    —–Still no mention of the mother and children.

    Hamas, which had largely held its fire since Israel’s last major offensive, claimed responsibility for the bus attack.
    Had the bus been full, broader Israeli retaliation would have been all but inevitable and the region – already destabilized by the popular revolts sweeping the Arab world – could have been drawn into another war.
    —–It’s odd to put such speculation in a news article, especially when AP left out so many newsworthy facts.

    It is unclear if Hamas was trying to provoke a new conflagration, if it was not fully in control of all of its fighters, or if it believes Israel would pull back before invading Gaza again.
    —–Again, it’s odd to put such speculation and commentary in a news article, especially when AP left out so many newsworthy facts.

    Israel was condemned internationally after the last incursion.
    —–“Incursion” is an odd word for the massive invasion by Israeli forces that was condemned in detailed reports issued by numerous highly respected international organizations.

    Hamas said the rocket attack was in retaliation for the killing of three fighters in an airstrike earlier in the week. At around midnight Thursday, with Gaza rocked by explosions, the organization announced a cease-fire
    —–This was actually announced earlier and included all sectors of the Gazan resistance. The announcements about this also spoke of the 21-year-old killed on Tuesday, whom AP never mentions in the report.

    But the Israeli strikes continued, hitting Hamas facilities and smuggling tunnels.
    —–And many other facilities. AP also fails to mention that the tunnels are a response to Israel’s suffocating siege of Gaza, noted by groups such as Christian Aid.

    Electricity lines and transformers were damaged, causing power blackouts in some parts of the territory, according to Jamal Dardsawi, a spokesman for Gaza’s Electric Distribution Company.
    —–While AP speculated about what would have happened if the nearly empty Israeli bus had been full, there is no mention here about what electricity blackouts are actually doing to Gazan patients on respirators, in hospital operating rooms, etc.

    In Israel, studies at some schools near Gaza were canceled Friday because of concerns for the students’ safety.
    —–No mention of schools in Gaza, whose students have been injured, one killed, and parents killed and injured.

    Palestinian militants launched nine mortars and rockets into Israel, causing damage to at least one building, the military said. Israeli casualties have been kept low thanks to reinforced rooms and early warning systems.
    —–and the fact that the Israeli military, thanks to Americans’ $8 million per day to Israel, is the fourth or fifth most powerful military in the world.

    Matan Vilnai, the Israeli Cabinet minister in charge of the home front, told Army Radio that Israel was acting to deter attacks. “We are acting as we see fit so that this type of fire will not continue, and so that the people behind the fire will regret it,” Vilnai said.
    Israel’s education minister, Gideon Saar, said in a briefing with reporters that any civilian casualties in Gaza were unintentional and that Israel did not target “anyone except the terrorists.”
    —–AP fails to report that numerous international investigations have found evidence indicating that Israel has often targeted civilians.

    U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Friday condemned the bus attack and expressed concern over civilian casualties in Israel’s strikes. He called for “de-escalation and calm to prevent any further bloodshed.”
    Thousands of rockets from Gaza have hit Israeli towns and cities since 2001.
    —–AP fails to mention that these have killed a total of approximately 20 Israelis. AP also fails to mention that during the same period Israeli forces have killed thousands of Gazans, including numerous children.

    Israel’s attempts to stop the rockets have included military incursions and covert operations abroad aimed at disrupting Hamas’ efforts to procure arms.
    —–AP again gives the Israeli narrative.
    It fails to report that Israeli military incursions and covert operations preceded Gazan rockets.

    In February, a Palestinian engineer was seized from a sleeper train in Ukraine and showed up several days later in Israel,
    — –The normal way to report this would be to state that Israel kidnapped a Palestinian engineer in the Ukraine.

    where he has been charged with masterminding Hamas’ rocket program.
    —–Once again, AP emphasizes Israeli claims without including countering claims.

    Last year a Hamas operative was assassinated in Dubai, and Israeli agents are
    widely assumed to have been responsible. Israel identified the man as a Hamas agent responsible for obtaining weaponry from Iran.
    —–Again, we get the Israeli narrative, and only the Israeli narrative.

    This week, Sudan accused Israel of being behind an explosion that killed two in Port Sudan. The blast was thought to be linked to arms smuggling to Gaza. Israel would not comment.
    —–AP doesn’t bother supplying any information about the two human beings in Port Sudan who were just killed.
    ——
    Ibrahim Barzak contributed reporting from Gaza City, Gaza Strip.
    —–Yet, the story was written and edited in Israel by Matti Friedman, a journalist who may have family ties to the Israeli military.

    In case anyone is curious about what occurred before this period, March had seen increased Israeli hostilities, including tightening the siege and a gradual escalation of Israeli military attacks that killed 15 Palestinians, including 5 children, while another 90 Palestinians, including 22 children and 6 women, were wounded.

    You said you’ve been reading the Hamas charter.

    http://www.countercurrents.org/rudolph250610.htm
    Excerpt:
    [Entry] 6.1 “Armed struggle [according to the PLO’s charter] is the only way to liberate Palestine. This is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase.” We aim “at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine.” “The…establishment of the state of Israel [is]…entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time…” and from the footnote to entry 6.1, we read:
    [Footnote] 6.1 “….. The [above quote is taken] from the [PLO’s] 1968 Palestine National Charter.
    ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/PLO_Covenant.html )
    “It is important to note that Israel negotiated peace accords with the PLO despite the fact that the 1968 Palestinian National Charter was in force at the time of the relevant negotiations. Clauses from the Charter were rendered void only after the 1993 Declaration of Principles was signed.” (emphasis added)
    ( http://www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?
    DO=795&RecID=195&DocumentID=297&SaveMode=0 )

    http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4168
    Excerpt below:
    “The double standard of the U.S. press can be seen in the treatment of Israel’s stance toward a Palestinian state. The party platform of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud Party states: ‘The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.’ But how often do you see Likud described as ‘rejecting the existence of Palestine’?”

    “Acquitting the guilty [warmongers] and condemning the innocent [victims]—–the Lord detests them both” (Prov. 17:15). Another reason for the Finkelstein video.
    “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension [including Zionism] that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought [including thoughts about Israel] to make it obedient to Christ”. (II Cor 10:4-5)

    Now here’s what a very classy observant Jew had to say about Zionism. Please take careful note of his humble spirit and how very different he was from Israel’s cold-hearted & anti-Semitic founding fathers:

    “…….[Rabbi Michael Dov-Ber] Weissmandel, who was a philosophy student at Oxford University, had volunteered on 1 September 1939 to return to Slovakia as the agent of the world Aguda [an organization of Torah-observant Jews]. He became one of the outstanding Jewish figures during the Holocaust, for it was he who was the first to demand that the Allies bomb Auschwitz. Eventually he was captured, but he managed to saw his way out of a moving train with an emery wire; he jumped, broke his leg, survived and continued his work of rescuing Jews. Weissmandel’s powerful post-war book, Min HaMaitzer (From the Depths), written in Talmudic Hebrew, has unfortunately not been translated into English as yet. It is one of the most powerful indictments of Zionism and the Jewish establishment.

    Here’s a Michael Dov-Ber Weissmandel quote from:
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm
    (emphasis added)
    “Every Jew is obliged to pray to the Blessed creator, for in Him lies all our strength. Let us bear in mind that our prayers be forthright. One should not entreat the Creator to provide a banquet on Yom Kippur, and one can not perform a ritual ablution with a dead bug in his hand. Similarly, we should avoid the untenable position of the robber who prays for Divine help in carrying out his crime. We should pray that Zionism and its fruits vanish from the Earth, and that we be redeemed by the Messiah with dispatch.
    “A prisoner is released only when he has served his time, or if he is pardoned by the President for good behavior. If he attempts escape and is apprehended, his term is lengthened, besides the beating he receives when he is caught.
    “Faithful Jews- for over three and one-half thousand years, in all parts of the world, through all trials, our grandfathers and grandmothers marched through seas of blood and tears in order to keep the Faith of the Torah unswervingly. If we have compassion for ourselves, for our women and children, and for the Jewish people, we will maintain our golden legacy today. We have been sentenced to exile by the King of Kings because of our sins. The eternal blessed be He, has decreed that we accept the exile with humble gratitude until the time comes, or until we merit His pardon through repentance if we seek to end the exile with force, G-d will catch us, as our sages have forewarned, and our sentence becomes longer and more difficult.

    “Many times in the past have segments of our people been defrauded by false messiahs – but none of the false messiahs has been as fallacious and delusory as the lie of Zionism. With our historical experience as our guide, no retribution has been or will be greater than the retribution for giving credence to Zionism. If we wish our exile-sentence commuted, we must appeal through repentance; and through total physical and spiritual observance of the Sabbath, laws of family purity, and study of Torah.
    “Let it be clearly understood that never in Jewish history (even in the time of Jeroboam or Achav) have such hostile atheists stood at the helm of the Jewish people as today.
    “How can we plead to the Almighty for mercy while we tolerate these vile, “wicked” leaders as spokesmen! Beloved brothers – let us cleanse our ranks and cleanse our midst; let us entreat the Almighty through prayer, repentance, and fulfillment of mitzvos that He alone redeem us, immediately.”

    There are many anti-Christs (II John 7). Some anti-Christs fight against Jesus; others, like Zionism, just seek to replace Him. In the heart of the American church, an antichrist has stealthily established and solidified a beachhead, within a part of our hearts ‘cordoned off,’ as it were, ‘with police tape.’ We as a body are generally so adamant in clinging to this vile Zionism, so intensely aggressive in protecting our idolatry and/or double-mindedness, that merely speaking a word against it leads so often to showers of verbal abuse and/or ostracism. (One thing I appreciate a lot about you, Sheila, is your gentleness. You’ve never abused me. Thanks. :):):) Zionism calls evil good & good evil, & because we embrace that god, we too call evil good & good evil.) Isa. 5:20: “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” But “purify your hearts, you double-minded.” See James 4:6b-8 & Psa 86:11b.

    (Btw, I realize you’re not a Zionist, Sheila, but a lot of the church is.)

    You ask what my book offers by way of reconciliation. On page 102, it says:

    “A statesmanlike response [by the United States] to the September 11th attacks would’ve been:

    1) a humble apology to the world for all our [ie, America’s] innocent bloodshed, because the standard we hold others to will be used by God to judge us (Matthew 7:2);
    2) the Israeli government would be required to remove all settlers from the Occupied Territories within six months;
    3) a truth and reconciliation commission, chaired by Norway or some other neutral party, would be established to collect evidence of, and grant restitution for, documented cases of Israeli crimes against Palestinians since 1948, provided the victims permanently surrender the right of return to Israel proper.”
    Some Parades Need Rain: A Road Map to Reconciliation in Strife-torn Times, by Jon Ivey (available on amazon).

    We are enjoined to seek reconciliation & pursue peace. When the world offers a settlement plan (see the above excerpt immediately below the newstatesman.com URL), we should accept it. And we should be impartial at all times, because God commands it. (See my 3-21 post for the verses. Another example is found in James 2:8-9: “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.”)

    This doesn’t mean we should always oppose Tel Aviv or always favor the Arabs. We are to judge with fairness. So, for instance, after Israel broke the 4-month-long ceasefire with Hamas on 11/4/08 by killing 6 Hamas fighters, after which Hamas fired a barrage of unguided rockets at Israel that killed no one, after which Hamas offered to return to the ceasefire Israel had broken, Israel should have been pressured (by us) to accept the offer. Then there would’ve been no Cast Lead. Think of all the Muslims who could’ve been still alive now, slowly coming to faith in Christ (by listening secretly to Christian radio or etc) or already saved in the last 2 years. But by strengthening Israel’s hand, we “shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces.” Matt. 23:13b

    “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say ‘Here it is’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you” (Lk 17:20b-21).

    When we look forward to prophecy’s fulfillment, God’s children agree to: “Wait for the Lord and keep his way” (Psa 37:34).

  79. Jon,

    Just for the record, I’ve been sober for seven years. I found the God I went looking for!

  80. Jon,

    “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say ‘Here it is’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you” (Lk 17:20b-21).

    Yes, that’s true. However, the kingdom of antichrist is “of this world.”

    I’m not going to get into the “tit for tat” of pulling out the defense for Israel as you do for the Muslims. This side of eternity, things down here are really messed up. You know I could quickly find just as much and more as you’ve presented. I’ve already agreed that what goes on there is not condusive to peace. But, we cannot seem to agree that the sins of the Palestinians are just as blaring as those you produce against Israel. I’ve said, too, that two wrongs will never make something right. Well, except that the Lord can fix it to bring about His will. Which is all we are left with in the end. And that is the thrust of all prophesy–”Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.” It matters not how man may scheme, God will work His will regardless. And that is what prophesy is all about. God’s will being done. God’s defeat of our supernatural enemies, once and for all.

    I can see that you are missing a key element concerning the interpretation of prophesy. Of course, I agree with you that in our every day lives we are to follow the words of Messiah and do His works. There is no disagreement there. I’m with you on that. And we are to be salt and light as a witness to the darkness. However, all of the “love your enemy” and “made in the image of God” statements are not applicable to God, who knows the hearts of every man and He certainly knows those that are His. There are obviously some out there ‘Who do not have the spot of His children.” Is God unjust that He takes vengeance on His enemies? And we know that His enemies are also our enemies and our enemies are His enemies. Is God a man that we would preach “love your enemies” to Him? Of course not. So, in ferreting out prophesy, you have to read it from the Perfect Judges point of view and then it will make sense. Do we dare to judge the Judge of the entire earth? Of course not. Prophesy is about God’s justice, yes, to point out to us His perfect standard. It’s also about God’s Salvation. And we know how much He loves us. (John 3:16) And lastly, it’s about God’s judgment on His enemies. It is not a subject for everyone to study and if one does endeavor to study it, you’ll soon begin to see that it encompasses a time line from the beginning of Satan’s meddling in God’s creation, that He “saw was very good” and it takes you to the final culmination of that otherworldly battle that is raging between our God, who is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and the one who wishes to set himself up as God and whose desire is to be worshipped as such. Satan would change the Word of God into a lie from the beginning. “Has God ‘really’ said?” Satan has no idea of the “love your enemies” concept. That’s certainly not in his playbook. Meanwhile, there is another battle raging here on earth between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. “And the light shown in the darkness, but, the darkness could not comprehend it.” We see in prophesy the broader outworkings of Satan, who has been trying to thwart God’s plan and His Word at every turn since God first declared that He would redeem us from our sins. Satan has it as his purpose to pollute God’s creation wherever and whenever possible, and to kill and to mame and to hurt. “In all of their afflictions, I was afflicted.” And his broader plan is to make void the Word, because the Lord declared that “not one word will fail.” It’s been the timeless (for us anyway) battle that is raging in heavenly places, while playing out on earth, since the dawn of man’s creation. So, prophesy, is in that respect, very broad in scope and all encompassing in the particulars. The Lord has his offspring in all the earth. Satan has his offspring as well, and he has those who do his bidding. The “spirit of antichrist is at work in the children of disobedience.” And the children of disobedience (whoever they are–God knows) hate the God of the Jews. And if you can’t lift your head from finding individual fault long enough to contemplate these facts, you will never understand the outworkings of God in giving us prophesy that lays out that battle for us if we care to search it out. Otherwise, yes, keep yourself in Christ and you’ll be doing what you should. And you’ll be fine. As I say, prophesy is not for everyone. And we are not to fear what those “who can kill the body” may do to us. For they are not able to take our eternal life from us. They may slay us, but, God will raise us. But, in searching out the battle between God and Satan, you can’t help but eventually run into the forces of darkness gathering for the final showdown. Prophesy, as concerning the end of the age, gets more and more specific in it’s design to alert us to the evil gathering against us. “Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, and all the more as you see the day approaching.” What day is that? That is the Day of the Lord. The day when Jesus returns, “taking vengence on His enemies and on those who hate Him.” So, obviously, the Lord is not bound by the “love your enemies” commandment that we are. That is the observation of prophesy. “For the battle is the Lord’s!” And as He said, “I will have Mercy on whom I will.”

    Take these verses for instance:

    Exd 20:2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

    Exd 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

    Exd 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [Such as the black meteoritic stone that is set up in Mecca.] [The same, scholars say, that "fell from the sky" and that was being worshipped in Paul's day! Act 19:35]

    Exd 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

    Exd 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    And again in Deut, 5:7-11, the Lord speaks of swearing by His Name in vain.

    Deu 5:11 “‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

    Lexicon for “vain”:

    1) EMPTINESS, vanity, FALSEHOOD
    a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity
    b) EMPTINESS OF SPEECH, LYING [Pronouncing as true, that which is false]
    c) worthlessness (of conduct)

    Here is an example of emptiness and of falsehood: “There is no God, but Allah, and Muhammed is His messenger.” Making that statement is also the greatest blasphemy one could commit. Blasphemy being anything that detracts from God’s sovereign Self. It says God “will not hold him as without guilt”, “who takes His Name and uses it for ‘that which is FALSE.’” And it is “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, as “God is Spirit” and we know that it will never be forgiven anyone, “neither in this life, nor, in the next.” “Baptising them in the Name of the FATHER, and of THE SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT.” Allah is not another name for our God. Islam is not a religion of peace, it is the religious outworking of Satan’s desire to be worshipped as God. “And by peace, he shall destroy many.” “Saying to them, ‘Peace, peace’ when there is no peace!’”

    Now, try taking that message about God to any Muslim and note their reaction. And then sit down with the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and al Quida and tell them that Allah is the God of the Jews and the Christians and that Allah sent His Son to die for the sins of the world. And don’t forget to point out to them that Muhammed is a “false prophet”. I wonder how long you would keep your head?

    Here is a prophesy of God’s judgment on the children of Allah, for “if He did not spare the natural branches” He certainly will not spare the rebrobate who are serving Satan and not God:

    Deu 32:1 “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

    Deu 32:2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distill as the dew, like gentle rain upon the tender grass, and like showers upon the herb.

    Deu 32:3 For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God!

    Deu 32:4 “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.

    Deu 32:5 They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children because they are blemished; they are a crooked and twisted generation.

    Deu 32:6 Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?

    Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you.

    Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

    Deu 32:9 But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

    Deu 32:10 “He found him in a desert land, and in the howling waste of the wilderness; he encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

    Deu 32:11 Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, that flutters over its young, spreading out its wings, catching them, bearing them on its pinions,

    Deu 32:12 the LORD alone guided him, no foreign god was with him.

    Deu 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the land, and he ate the produce of the field, and he suckled him with honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock.

    Deu 32:14 Curds from the herd, and milk from the flock, with fat of lambs, rams of Bashan and goats, with the very finest of the wheat– and you drank foaming wine made from the blood of the grape.

    Deu 32:15 “But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked; you grew fat, stout, and sleek; then he forsook God who made him and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation.

    Deu 32:16 They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger.

    Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

    Deu 32:18 You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth.

    Deu 32:19 “The LORD saw it and spurned them, because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.

    Deu 32:20 And he said, ‘I will hide my face from them; I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness.

    Deu 32:21 They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

    Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

    Deu 32:23 “‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them;

    Deu 32:24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust.

    Deu 32:25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.

    Deu 32:26 I would have said, “I will cut them to pieces; I will wipe them from human memory,”

    Deu 32:27 had I not feared provocation by the enemy, lest their adversaries should misunderstand, lest they should say, “Our hand is triumphant, it was not the LORD who did all this.”‘
    Deu 32:28 “For they are a nation void of counsel, and there is no understanding in them.

    Deu 32:29 If they were wise, they would understand this; they would discern their latter end!

    Deu 32:30 How could one have chased a thousand, and two have put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had given them up?

    Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock; our enemies are by themselves.

    Deu 32:32 For their vine [Israel's enemies] comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of poison; their clusters are bitter;

    Deu 32:33 their wine is the poison of serpents and the cruel venom of asps.

    Deu 32:34 “‘Is not this laid up in store with me, sealed up in my treasuries?

    Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.’

    Deu 32:36 For the LORD will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.

    Deu 32:37 Then he will say, ‘Where are their gods, the rock in which they took refuge,

    Deu 32:38 who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise up and help you; let them be your protection! [For whose sake they bake cookies and pass them out in Palestine to celebrate for Allah's small victories!]

    Deu 32:39 “‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

    Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever,

    Deu 32:41 if I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and will repay those who hate me.

    Deu 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh– with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.’

    Deu 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people’s land.”

    Aha, you say, He is speaking to the children of Israel! Yes, He is. He is also speaking to each and every one of us–and He is specifically speaking to Israel’s enemies. “Their rock (whether Allah, the Mahdi, or, the actual rock of Mecca) is not as our Rock.” “They themselves being witness to this truth.” Or, will be. For God is God of all His creation, but, His “specifically chosen for His purposes” people are Israel. And Moses called on Heaven and Earth to bear witness; and they will. “I say, has Israel not heard [and their enemies as well]?” “Yes, surely, for their sound went out into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.” (Rom. 10:18; Psalm 19:1-6) Therefore, having heard, all mankind will eventually be “without excuse.” The Gospel, for the most part, has certainly gone to the ends of the earth. Who hasn’t heard of Jesus? He’s the most famous Jew in history. Yes, we still take the Gospel to individuals in hopes of saving some. That is an example of our individual endeavors and is our commission from the Lord. That is something specific and peculiar to Christians. We seek to save souls in the Name of our God, not to kill them for Him. Not taking vengeance on our enemies, loving them, praying for them, and all the others I’m sure you know, are part of our separating ourselves from the world. We are not, however, to stick our heads in the sand. We don’t “not” acknowledge the evil, we call it what it is. People are quick to say, “Oh, you’re judging, you’re judging; you better stop that!” Really? Then how do we know to “flee from evil” if we don’t recognize it and call it what it is? And, if we “will know them by their fruit” then, we have a guide to discerning them. The fruit of those who are serving Allah, the Satan, is going to get even more putrid in the days ahead. So, hang on tight, “it’s going to get really ugly down here.”

    I hope we can at least agree that the children of Israel are no longer serving idols. They are no longer setting anything up to worship in place of God. Most of them don’t know God, it’s true, but, certainly that is being remedied. But, the Muslims are a completely different story. They are worshipping a false god; plain as the nose on my face. As we agree, “the Lord does not change.” “Therefore, the sons of Jacob are not destroyed.” But, those who are worshipping the Antichrist when he comes–well, God does not change.

    So, I’ll take just the briefest of outlines of the major element of prophesy. God made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And he gave their decendents after them promises “if” they would keep His commandments. Correct? Yes, correct. Do you think God didn’t realise at the time that He gave them those commandments that they would not have been able to keep them? I’m thinking, “Yes, He knew.” So, then, why give us commandments that He knows full well that none of us can bear? He gave them to show us that God, only, is Holy and Righteous and we can’t even come close to His perfection. We are fallen and sinful and in need of a Messiah and none of us can attain to God’s perfect righteousness except through the righteousness of Jesus. But, God chose for Himself a people, in fact, He chose “the least of all the people” and brought them out of the mightiest Egyptian, idol-worshipping nation on earth. We have the evidence of Egypt’s past in front of us today, so, He is not without witness. Gross idolatry pervaded Egypt. “They worshipped demons, and not God.” So, the Lord brought out a people for His Name. “It was not because of their righteousness that He did this.” So, don’t be thinking that it is a matter of our righteousness, either, that the Lord has Mercy on us. “For there is none righteous–No, not a one!” It’s a matter of His righteousness, and it’s a matter of “for His Name’s sake.”

    Alright, then, we’ve set the seen for the children of Israel’s salvation. Steeped in a civilization of idolatry for 400 years must have been more than a temptation for them. But, in fact, the Hebrews kept themselves separate in their identity. And because they did, they were loathed by the Egyptians. They were considered “unclean” is how it’s worded. They didn’t shave their heads and bodies as the Eygptians did and they worked in raising cattle and livestock, so, they must have had what we call, “an odor” about them. Well, there they are multiplying and multiplying in the land of Egypt. Becoming more and more numerous as the years went by. And then, low and behold, the time comes when Pharoah must have been alerted to the prophesy spoken by the Word of the Lord, and what is his response? He makes a decision to destroy all of the male children of the Hebrews! Imagine that!

    “Hey, Pharoah, remember that prophesy that Yahweh, the God of the Jews made?” “You know, something about ‘bringing out the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’, those Jews, ‘with a mighty hand and an out-stretched arm’ and all?” “Yeah, well, times almost up!” “What’s that?” “Well, the way I reckon it, you might want to start with this generation–You know, ‘nip it in the bud’ so to speak.” “We wouldn’t want a Messiah coming to free them, now would we?”

    And we both know what happened. The time was drawing very near for the Lord “to perform His Word” and there went the newly born children of Israel drowning in the Nile… With the exception of Moses. And we already know “the rest of the story.”

    You may be wondering why I brought this up. So, I’ll tell you, of course. Let’s go back to World War 2. The time is drawing near when the Lord will return “to perform His Word” once again. But, wait! “What in the world?!”

    “Hey, Fuhrer, do you remember that prophesy that the Lord made?” “Well, something about coming for His Body, you know ‘His Church’ and all.” “Yeah, well, apparently, there’s something in there too, about the promises He made to Israel.” “Yep, same Israel!” “Well, there is something written by the Prophets of Israel–’yep, same Israel’–anyway, something about “bringing a remnant back” into, what the Lord says is ‘His Land.’” “Of course all the earth belongs to Him, silly!” “But, apparently, the Lord won’t be happy until He claims that specific piece of real estate.” “You know, Feurer, something about ‘Placing His Name there–forever’ and all.” “Yeah, well, times almost up!!” “What’s that?” “Near as I can tell, boss, could be any day now.” “Yeah, I agree.” “They sure don’t deserve a God like Him!!” “Pesky little boogers, too, those Jews, the world just can’t seem to get rid of them!!” “Keeping all those funny rules and regulations and separating themselves from the rest of us ordinary people–it just ain’t natural, I tell ya.” “There ain’t no good reason for a people named after the God of the Whole Earth to still be here witnessing to the Power of that God and of His Word!!” “Somethings a foot, I tell ya.” “Something Awesome!” “What’d ya say?” “Round every last one of them up?” “And do what with them?” “Pharoah, I mean, Fuhrer, we’re talking, say, about SIX MILLION of them, for heaven’s sake!” “Right, Satan, I mean, Fuhrer, I’ll get started on it right away…” (“As if he could thwart the Word of God…”) “Nothing, I didn’t say anything.”

    And there went the children of Israel, not just the newborn this time, into the gas chambers and into mass graves; except for “a remnant”. Do you see, Jon, the supernatural designs that are at work and that are coming to a close very soon? Does anything ring a bell? Does the “thousand year reign” of Hitler’s pure race sound familiar? The Millennial Reign of Christ, perhaps? And when you see these things ‘begin’ to come to pass, lift up your heads and look up, for your redemption draws very near.” Something Awesome is afoot, and Satan has merely moved from the heart of Hitler and he is now roaming about looking for his next target. He’s laid snares throughout history for God’s people. What makes you think he’s not at work now? What better disquise than to set himself up as Allah in open defiance of our God. Nimrod, Pharoah, King of Babylon, the Philistines, (David and Goliath), the Assyrians, the Hittites, Haman (and Ester), Antiochus Ephiphanes, and Hitler. Need I say more? Ok, if you insist. And now we have the Muslims waiting for “The Antichrist”, who is their Mahdi. Surely you know the Koran and the writings of Muhammed. It’s all about him. And he will only come, they say, when the world is thrown into chaos. Paul speaks of him, as does the Lord in the Revelation. In fact, you can see his type throughout the entire Bible. His antitype is “the one in whom all iniquity has, as it were, fixed it’s abode.” He’s coming. And HE is coming right behind him! And this time, Satan is intent on more than just the Jews. “Settle it in your hearts, therefore.” “Do not premeditate what you will say, it will be given to you in that hour.” But, do prepare to lose your head. Will you die rather than deny Him? It’s a question every Christian should contemplate and know the answer to.

    Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD lives, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

    Jer 23:8 But, The LORD lives, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

    Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment [two thousand years now]; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

    So, why deny what is so very obvious? Forget politically correct. And when it comes to God, and our Lord, take Their Word for it; it will happen as They have said it will. A remnant from Israel WILL BE GRAFTED IN and Messiah’s fold will then be complete and He will claim us, taking fiery vengeance on His enemies and on those who worship the Antichrist, who is Satan personified; who is himself masquerading as Allah.

    Sorry, but, that’s what the Book says.

    And then, there’s our favorite. Baalam:

    Num 23:18 And Balaam took up his discourse and said, “Rise, Balak, and hear; give ear to me, O son of Zippor:

    Num 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

    Num 23:20 Behold, I received a command to bless: he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.

    “‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

    Jer 33:24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

    Eze 7:27 The king mourns, the prince is wrapped in despair, and the hands of the people of the land are paralyzed by terror. According to their way I will do to them, and according to their judgments I will judge them, and they shall know that I am the LORD.”

    Eze 34:30 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Lord GOD.

  81. Sheila, You might request of “Jon” how he became so slanted in his perceptions and emphases. How can a “WASP” past emersed in a claimed New York past become so vehment in his outlook on the Jewish people? His “evidence” is not only fervid and biased in its approach to scholarship, it ascribes motive, which is the worst form of arrogance, as such. His “solution” of a supposed jurisprudence whcih he alone grants ignores all past efforts of any nation by moral imperative setting up ways and means to approach issues by long established means of civil and criminal law. In short, he has already tried and convicted, by viewing one side of an argument (and that is about the people involved in a premodern, modern, and post modern history of identity–yet while placing upon them the standard of the law the Apostle Paul stated it is impossible for anyone to do). It is not unfounded to state that likely “Jon” would rejoice at watching a carrying out of a death sentence for the people composing the Jewish State. He would do this based on what he selects and posts as “evidence”, picked and chosen in part from those now passed on.

    This kind of outlook on the Jews has been attempted before, and is recorded in the Biblical accounts as backfiring on those regarding such intentions. I hereby caution “Jon” that his outlook not become his own demise. Let not any professing believer be cast upon the foundation stone harshly. “By the measure you judge shall you also be judged”, as has been a frequent reminder by “Jon”. Attributing the sovereignty of God using human history to His own Promised Ends–as Sheila has amply evidenced from the prophets of Old regarding present day Israel–can become a tightrope looping around one’s own voice so to speak when viewing such only through eyes of contempt, or ascription.

    His three part plan was given earlier here, when I employed Perry Mason techniques to get it out in the open, as such. It is flaunted under the assumptive subtitle as being about “reconcilation”, which has nothing to do with anything so far he has emphasized or written. A notion of history and justice is seated in the self appointed disapprobation of a people, and their nation, as such. Where there is only contempt there is no possiblity of redemption. He has forgotten Adams, Jefferson, and Washington as upholders of Jewish freedom and tolerance in the 1700s, in forming their own foundations for a nation ruled by law and jurisprudence. There is no possibility of a claimed WASP heritage being actually a lineage.

    I read Norway news at least weekly, being married to a Norwegain citizen. It has been rated the most anti-semetic nation of Europe by many neutral commenators, FYI. And here is where “Jon” looks for a “neutral” jurisprudence??? Why? Could it be because of its secularization trends of the past 75 years being saturated with an armchair idealisim on the matter of “Peac”? Peace, it is said in Norway, is only about the bearer of its being, not about truth or consequences. Trying to understand the Middle East from an armchair of desired and fantasized being is not to even acknowledge the equal understanding of the basic values conflicts, or particulars involved.

  82. And, it is an afront to God Himself to uphold that the nations can judge rightly the chosen Nation. It is His right alone, His outworking alone, His choice alone.

  83. In my previous post, I was taking verses from my various word pad documents and I inadvertently copied Ezekiel 7:27. This was not meant to be included here. Sorry about that. In the previous chapter, Eze. 6:8, as we see throughout all judgments on Israel, we see as “He says”, that He brings out a “remnant” in all judgments.

    I could provide more evidence for the “remnant” if you need me too.

    And, Jon, if you hit me with a book length reply, it will be very difficult to respond to.

    Garden is coming along nicely. All the beautiful Iris are up and are gorgeous this year. Veggie transplants are still puny, but, that will change quickly! The seeds go in next week.

  84. Ezkl 7:27 certainly has applied to Arafat, and others. Consider, the Son of the Remallah Hamass leader and the reason now being clear why all those Israeli tanks were set just outside Arafat’s HQ. I think the scripture fits perfectly his deceit, and demise.

  85. I agree that scripture is forever timeless and relevant. I was going more for, “My people, Israel.”

    Say, I stayed up reading Joel Richardson’s book, “The Islamic Antichrist” last night. I couldn’t put it down! That’s the fastest, I think, that I’ve ever read anything! I have to say it again, “WOW”! If you’ve not read it, you need to. They offered me a free download from Amazon for “Kindle for PC”, it’s called “Whispersync” and you can be reading it in moments. I said Joel must have high-jacked my word pad documents and wrote his book–just kidding, but, it’s a great relief to know I was on the right track. He filled in all the pieces I was missing! I can’t praise his book enough. The escatology he works out is exactly what is said in the prophets. No torturing of the texts and no looking for anything other than the obvious. Quite refreshing to hear the rational presented in prophesy. It was a lot cheaper and with no waiting on it to arrive in the mail.

    I’m starting on another one this evening. It’s written by a former Palestinian terrorist who is now a Christian, Walid Shoebat. It’s called, “God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophesy and the Bible.” Looks to be in the same vein as Joel’s. In fact, I think Joel was mentioned somewhere in looking into this book. Don’t know exactly what it was, though. Jeepers, I hope he wasn’t co-author or something…how embarrasing that would be.

    I’ve been doing a word search for these, “remnant, day of the Lord, day of wrath, and mercy.” It reads like a book from beginning to end.

    What am I talking about, it is “The Book”!

  86. If Arafat did not occupy part of greater Israel, and was not regarded at least by sone in the Land as King, who was??? His cause of death has still not been declared. Yet too, with all the murderrous terror done, his own acts were his undoing, as the chapter states of the people in the land.

  87. Hi Sheila!

    I’m glad your garden is doing well. My father (1928-2003) loved gardening. Next time you see an inchworm on a leaf, please say something sweet to it, like, uhm,… how ‘bout “So how’s the measuring business these days, lil’ fella?” ;);)

    When I tried to watch your recommended video at:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7057936494064976215#
    this is what “Google Videos Error” said:

    “We’re sorry, but this video may not be available.

    If this video was recently uploaded, it may still be processing.
    If this video is yours, you can check its status.

    To see more videos visit our home page.”

    I tried 10 times.

    “Category errors, or category mistakes, [according to wikipedia] are defined as: “a semantic or ontological error in which “things of one kind are presented as if they belonged to another”,[1] or, alternatively, a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have that property.”

    What follows are three examples of category errors (from “category errors,” wikipedia).

    “The first example [that the philosopher who coined the term] gives is of a visitor to Oxford. The visitor, upon viewing the colleges and library, reportedly inquired “But where is the University?”[3] The visitor’s mistake is presuming that a University is part of the category “units of physical infrastructure” or some such thing, rather than the category “institutions”, say, which are far more abstract and complex conglomerations of buildings, people, procedures, and so on.”

    “Ryle’s second example is of a child witnessing the march-past of a division. After having had battalions, batteries, squadrons, etc. pointed out, the child asks when is the division going to appear. ‘The march-past was not a parade of battalions, batteries, squadrons AND a division; it was a parade of the battalions, batteries and squadrons OF a division.’ (Ryle’s emphasis)”

    “His third example is of a foreigner being shown a cricket match. After being pointed out batsmen, bowlers and fielders, the foreigner asks: ‘who is left to contribute the famous element of team-spirit?’”

    You describe our dialogue as love for Palestinians/Muslims versus love for Jews, but it was instead my attempt to use credible documentation to refute your misapprehensions & category errors.
    If, as you assert, the reason for Muslim & Christian violence is hatred for Jews, are you honestly of the opinion that Semitic Palestinian Christians are anti-Semites? Category error #
    1.
    Counting ALL opposition to modern Israel as anti-Semitic/hatred for Jews is category error # 2, because, after all, quite a few Orthodox Jews both here & in Israel are adamantly opposed to Tel Aviv. Satmarer Jews in Brooklyn regularly burn the Israeli flag. On Neturei Karta’s home page today http://www.nkusa.org/ there are Orthodox Jews during Purim holding a sign in front of an image of a burning Israeli flag. Their sign reads: “Judaism Condemns Zionist Provocations Against Iran.”

    You say, “and we know that His enemies are also our enemies and our enemies are His enemies.” Well, actually, the whole world– including believers– were his enemies until & unless we believe in him & are saved. The carnal (unsaved) mind is at enmity with God & “cannot please God” (Rom 8:7,8). Category error # 3. And apparently you believe that whenever we pronounce others our ‘enemies’ that God humbly acquiesces. Then can you explain Num 14:41-45? The Amalekites & Canaanites were God’s instrument of punishment against the Israelites when the latter acted presumptuously. By your logic, the former weren’t doing right in battling the Israelites on that day. Category error # 4. You say “however, all of the “love your enemy” and “made in the image of God” statements are not applicable to God.” But not only does ‘love your enemy’ apply to God, but he died on the cross to prove that love to his enemies “when we were God’s enemies” (Rom 5:10). Category error # 5. Are you changing the nature of the loving Jehovah into the nature of the hater Allah? ;) You say “meanwhile, there is another battle raging here on earth between the sons of light and the sons of darkness.” Yes, I agree! But the sons of light are under Satan’s attack, too, friend. (More on that below). Besides, if the sons of light are always in the right, and if the sons of darkness are always in the wrong, I have 2 questions for you: (1) Why am I not always in the right? In other words, why do you argue with me at all? ;););) And (2) if the sons of darkness are always wrong, then has the image of God in them been erased? No, even within the darkest soul, there’s at least some light because we’re all made in the image of God. Erasing the image of God in atheists/commies/etc: category error # 6.

    As best I can recall, Sheila, you’ve completely erased Palestinian Christians. Category error # 7. Btw, we’re commanded to pray for all the saints (Eph 6:18b). And “the Lord works righteousness and justice for all the oppressed” (Psa 103:6), not just your “remnant.” Is God supposed to stop working justice for his followers? If not, then is he restricted to achieving justice only for his non-Palestinian children?

    One of the sins of Zionism is to erase people they can’t use politically (Holocaust victims, anti-Zionist diaspora Jews, etc). This is, of course, a colossal category error, but since you don’t erase people when they can’t be used politically, I’m not going to give this one a number. But you do erase people that can’t be used in interpreting prophecy (see category error 7).

    I don’t take it personally when you erase some of my questions & concerns, including:
    “Sheila, the crafty serpent fought against you and me & the church by designing a movement that was diametrically opposed to the very group that you hold in high esteem, viz the so-called remnant” (my 4/9 post)

    “Would God accept a movement [Zionism] that aggressively persecuted, rooted out & allowed God-fearers to be murdered in large numbers as Israel’s founding fathers did?” (4/9 post)

    Of course, erasing Shoah victims included literally selecting them to be sent to the ovens. (See my 4/9 post for extensive documentation on the Zionists’ evildoing). Although you correctly decry the Shoah, you goof in embracing your so-called remnant—that segment of modern Israel that you claim are ‘the’ remnant; however “let no foreigner [Palestinians included] who has bound himself to the Lord say, ‘The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.’” (Isa 56:3. See also 56:6-8)— because it’s in fact led by anti-Semites whose forefathers selected victims for the crematoria & whose children presently brutalize & abuse that “remnant” even now. In fairness to you, you don’t embrace Israel’s leaders, but you tolerate them. And I’m pretty sure you agree that Gentile believers are of the remnant. So describing a subset of the real remnant as “the” remnant is category error # 8. You say “Yep, same Israel.” Nope, sorry. Ps 115.9-11 & 115:12-13 & 118.2-4 all equate “Israel” with those who fear God.

    You turn blessed are those who obey God Psa 119.1-2, into blessed NOW are a modern remnant because years later their descendants will THEN obey. But see Psa 149:4. And Ps 85.9 says God saves those who fear him, not those unbelievers whose descendants are PREDICTED by you & others to turn their hearts to him. So, by your very own logic, why don’t you tolerate evil Muslims in the Holy Land NOW on the basis that you believe there’ll be an ex-Muslim Christian remnant IN THE FUTURE? Category error # 9. After all, you do tolerate the Zionist Israeli government even though it persecuted/persecutes the “remnant.”

    “Would God embrace a predominantly secular & irreligious people as his own flock simply because he foreknew that many years hence their descendants would turn their hearts toward him? I could see him embracing them after they humbled themselves & put their faith in him, but are there any historical examples (in Scripture or otherwise) where he did as you suggest? See Psa 105:42-45, esp vs 45; Deut 29:18-20 & also Jer 7:3-11. If the sinner in Deut 27:17 is cursed for moving a boundary stone, why would He bless expropriating property? “But you [ie, God] remain the same” Psa 102:27a.” (4/9 post)

    You haven’t answered the above question yet about historical examples of God doing this.

    Your confusion is unfortunately compounded by believing that I’m naive, or not initiated into the mysteries of prophecy. But see Prov 3:7.

    Ps 82.3-4 tells us to rescue the weak from the hand of the wicked & “maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.” But to you the victims of the wicked somehow ARE the wicked, & the wicked (Tel Aviv) are the victims. Category errors #10 and #11. Thus you slander real victims. Victimhood is erased and the 63 years of provocations that Muslims & Christians have undergone from Israelis are scrubbed out of our consciousness. Then victimhood is transferred to the wicked & the latter’s evil is erased or, in some cases, transferred to the former. Reminds me of a shell game. David and Goliath trade places. The 4th or 5th most powerful military in the world becomes some teenage shepherd with a slingshot. And beaten-up-permanently imprisoned-starving- and decimated-weaklings, with no air force or navy or tanks, armed with hey-Ahmed-I-wonder-where-this-one-will-land old-timey rockets & who—- according to Israeli soldiers, yes, you read that right, according to IDF troops— did NOT resist the Cast Lead GROUND invasion, those folks, by waving a magic wand, become Goliath!!!

    AND you erase God’s promise in Ps 81.13-14 (“If my people would but listen to me, if Israel would follow my ways, how quickly would I subdue their enemies…”), that is, IF we assume, as I don’t, that the word ‘Israel’ means what you say it does.

    And the people who want to crush oppressors (see Ps 72:4,12,13,14, a psalm written by the righteous Solomon) are themselves considered evil!! Category error # 12.

    The same God who considered Ammonites so vile for sacrificing their kids to Molech (“Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon” 2 Kgs 23.13c) rebuked David for abuse of power in having Uriah the Hittite whacked during what amounted to a holy war (honest, it really was a holy war!) against those Ammonites. (See Nathan’s completely-one-sided & why-doesn’t-he harp-on-Ammonite-sins rebuke in 2 Sam 12.9) The holy end doesn’t justify immoral means. And in Num 14:45, when the Israelites attacked the Promised Land disobediently, it’s none other than the vile Amalekites (& others) who deliver the beat down. And the sin of Jeroboam (1 Kings 13.33-34) was to appoint “priests for the high places from all sorts of people. Anyone who wanted to become a priest he consecrated for the high places. This was the sin of the house of Jeroboam that led to its downfall and to its destruction from the face of the earth.” And King Saul didn’t fully obey God when attacking the Amalekites (I Sam 15:13-14). He spared some of them instead of wiping them out. Mind you, Saul claimed he’d obeyed (vs 13). God’s response was to reject him as king because Saul had “rejected the word of the Lord” (vs 23b). (Read also vs 11). So because Saul hadn’t completely obeyed, he’s described as ‘rejecting the word of God.’ Also, if discourtesy to the blind brings curses (Deut 27.18), why not curses on those who light sheep on fire? (see 4/9 post, the section on settler hooliganism). This is the holy nature of the God we serve, Sheila. Why do you persistently make him out to be other than what he really is? Do you really believe that he’s OK with the “remnant” as long as they’re not idolaters? You say “But, apparently, the Lord won’t be happy until He claims that specific piece of real estate.” (?!?!!!???) Are you edging close to defacing his holiness?

    “I have heard with great joy of the zeal for God’s glory that burns in your midst, but your zeal needs the timely restraint of knowledge.” (Bernard of Clairvaux)

    And you’ve thrust the following two passages of God’s holy word behind your back:

    2 Cor. 5:16 , 18-20a: “So from now on we regard no one [no, not even Muslims] from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer….All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.” And secondly, you “must seek peace and pursue it” (1 Pet 3:11).

    “Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble” Psa 119.165. The obedient are full of peace & NOTHING—- NOT EVEN MUSLIMS—can make them stumble!!

    “A man does what he has to do, whatever the personal consequences, whatever the obstacles, the dangers or the pressure. This is the basis of all human morality“. (Giovanni Falcone)

    You cited Walid Shoebat again. Perhaps you overlooked this quote from my 3/14 post about him.

    “A quick check of wikipedia shows this:

    “The Jerusalem Post also disputed the authenticity of Shoebat’s account of his terrorist history. The paper stated that:
    SHOEBAT[‘S] CLAIMED BOMBING HAS BEEN REJECTED BOTH BY BANK LEUMI, WHICH CLAIMS NO SUCH ATTACK TOOK PLACE, AND BY SHOEBAT’S OWN RELATIVES.

    ….. The Jerusalem Post article reported that:
    HIS UNCLE, who still lives in Bethlehem SAID THAT RELIGION DID NOT PLAY A MAJOR ROLE IN HIS EDUCATION, and that he had actually left Bethlehem by age 16.”

    Supposed bombing of Bank Leumi
    “Shoebat claimed that he threw a bomb at Bank Leumi, an Israeli bank, in Bethlehem.[1] However, the bank has no record of the incident. Also, Israeli newspapers at that time did not report any such incident.[3] The authenticity of Shoebat’s account has been disputed by many sources.

    “The Jerusalem Post also disputed the authenticity of Shoebat’s account of his terrorist history. The paper stated that Shoebat claimed bombing has been rejected both by Bank Leumi, which claims no such attack took place, and by Shoebat’s own relatives.

    The Post said that Shoebat had contradicted himself on this matter. When, in 2008, the Jerusalem Post asked him if there were news reports about the bombing, he said,[1]
    ‘I don’t know. I didn’t read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days.’
    “But, in 2004, he had told Britain’s Sunday Telegraph,
    ‘I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.’

    “DURING A TELEPHONE INTERVIEW WITH THE POST, SHOEBAT WAS UNABLE TO RECALL THE DATE, OR THE TIME OF YEAR, OF THE ATTACK.

    While Shoebat says he was pressured by teachers to adopt an extreme Islamic philosophy. The Jerusalem Post article reported that his uncle, who still lives in Bethlehem said that religion did not play a major role in his education, and that he had actually left Bethlehem by age 16.[1]

    .”…….. Skeptics question as to:
    WHY SHOEBAT HAS BEEN ABLE TO RETAIN HIS US CITIZENSHIP IF IT IS TRUE THAT HE WAS INVOLVED IN ACTS OF TERROR.[3]

    “…When the Post asked Shoebat whether the Walid Shoebat Foundation is a registered charity, he said that it was registered in Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania State Attorney’s office said it had no record of such a charity. When asked again, Shoebat claimed it was registered under a different name, but that he was not aware of the Foundation’s registered name, nor any other details, which were known only to his manager…..”
    (from my 3/14 post)

    Joel Richardson writes:
    “I believe that the information presented in this book will establish the fact that Islam is indeed the primary vehicle that will be used by Satan to fulfill the prophecies of the Bible about the future political/religious/military system of the Antichrist that will overwhelm the entire world just prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ. [The Islamic Antichrist, Pages 11-12 (italics in original)]”

    H-m-m-m, I wonder why Joel Richardson is allowed to misread or ignore 2 John 7, where it does not say there is ONE antichrist, but MANY. Also, “even now many antichrists have come” 1 John 2:18b. Why doesn’t that serious distortion of God’s word concern you, friend?

    “There are many anti-Christs (II John 7). SOME ANTI-CHRISTS FIGHT AGAINST JESUS; OTHERS, LIKE [CHRISTIAN] ZIONISM, JUST SEEK TO REPLACE HIM. In the heart of the American church, an [not ‘the,’ ‘an’] antichrist has stealthily established and solidified a beachhead, within a part of our hearts ‘cordoned off,’ as it were, ‘with police tape.’” (from my 4/9 post)

    It doesn’t make any sense to fight an Islamic antichrist with a Christian Zionist one.

    Satan has been FAR more subtle than you imagine. Islam is actually ONE of the evil means for fulfilling end-times prophecy. But the PRIMARY means of fulfilling Satan’s evil schemes is the Christian church itself, which has been so badly lacking in discernment that it doesn’t even KNOW it’s being hoodwinked.

    (Do you STILL believe Shoebat is not a fraud?
    David said he hates & abhors falsehood Psa. 119.163.
    Do you? Why should WE void God’s word, just because Muslims do so?)

    1 Cor 10.21: “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too.” (The cup of demons includes, in part, lies. Murder & lies are their stock-in-trade). While the American church sharpens its scimitars ;) & focuses like a tractor beam with laser-like intensity on one part of Satan’s evil schemes [ie, Islam], we don’t notice our own— unintentional— part. Category error # 13.

    You say “…Satan has merely moved from the heart of Hitler [& all the other places his demons were lurking back then, yes] and he is now roaming about looking for his next target. [True]. He’s laid snares throughout history for God’s people. [Amen! Preach it, sister! ;););)] What makes you think he’s not at work now? [He is!] What better disguise than to set himself up as Allah in open defiance of our God.”

    Aha, he DID find a better [more precisely, an ‘additional’] place to infest! The church itself!!!

    We’re being distracted. Indeed, far worse, the church apparently believes that the discerners (like me—-btw, I gave my life to Jesus in 1971) are on the (ahem)’wrong side of history’, so to speak. Or hopelessly naive about Muslim attempts to rule the world. Or worse. Category error # 14.

    THAT is how crafty Satan is!!

    Don’t you seriously realize that if Muslims tried to install a worldwide caliphate, that America’s response would be to reduce their entire force to the size of a warm bowling ball? And do you seriously believe that if they tried stealthily to take over the US of A, that the libertine, substance-abusing, free-love, moral relativist Democrats would meekly say, ‘OK, fine, you fellas over there in the corner, the ones with the turbans & permanent scowls, OK we give up. You win. Lay five on me. I’ll just go ahead & trade in my wives, mistresses & whores for a burka babe. Uhm, pretty please, may I have a glass of cranberry juice?’

    You rightly decry the Holocaust, but sin & death crashed into Paradise because Adam & Eve didn’t listen to God’s words. Friend, YOU don’t listen to him, either. His commands are “fully trustworthy” Ps 119.138b. And Ps 119.60: “I will hasten & not delay to obey your commands.” Satan distorted God’s word in Eden. You are smitten by Mr Richardson even though he does the same. The serpent conceitedly claimed to know what God REALLY meant.

    Holocausts happen when evil & crooked folk are not treated shrewdly (“to the crooked you show yourself shrewd” 2 Sam 22:27b); when God’s word is ignored, distorted or read into (but “do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar” Prov 30:6); when discerners like Rabbi Weissmandel are erased; when we drink in every word uttered by artful propagandists; & when politics trumps morality.

    The way to know whether someone is working for Jesus is that His sheep hear his voice.
    This doesn’t mean you’re not a Christian, just that you’re double-minded. “Give me an undivided heart” Psa 86:11b. God will give you an undivided heart if you ask him.

    Do you WANT one, friend? James 4:8c commands us to “purify your hearts, you double-minded.”

    Matt. 18:7-9: “’Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man—– [like the false prophet Joel Richardson]—- through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.’”

    So if prophecy causes you to stumble, Sheila, ‘throw it away.’ Do all [including prophesying] “for the glory of God” 1 Cor 10:31, not ‘do all, except for prophesying,’ which latter you’re actually doing for the glory of your so-called remnant, although you sincerely believe you’re doing so for God’s glory.

    “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine [like, being an ambassador for Christ even to his sworn enemies, yes, even to members of the Church of Satan itself, founded by Anton LaVey. Remember him, Sheila? ;)]. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers [Joel “Bible-twister & Church-beguiler” Richardson & Walid “Part-time Charlatan” Shoebat, for instance] to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to [Christian Zionist, etc] myths” (II Tim. 4:3-4).

    JON: “Pretty hot down there, wouldn’t ya say, Anton?”
    ANTON: “@&$!$*!@!*!@ GET ME SOME #@&$!@&# WATER, you $!@#&@ Christian @!^#@$@%#^!!”
    JON: “I’m sorry. I didn’t catch that last insult. Wouldja mind screaming it at me again?”
    ANTON: @!@$%@%%!!&*@()$$
    JON: “ ‘Kay. That’s a new one……. Ya want fries with that, Anton?”
    ANTON: “SHRIE-E-E-K I just wanna tear your #&^@%$ head off, ya lousy #*&@*$
    JON: “Still love Satan?”
    ANTON: “ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR #&%*@ MIND?!!?….[Whimpers]..”Dude’s off the chain. [Imitating Satan:] Bow down! Poke that one with a red-hot iron! Praise me to the rafters! Stoke this fire NOW! Yada yada yad—–OH NO!! THEY’RE BACK!!! NO, PLEASE. ANYTHING BUT THAT!! PLE-E-E-A-A-S-E NO-O-O-O—-” [Sounds of plunging into boiling oil].

    If the essence of LaVey’s Church of Satan was bank robbery, let us suppose, then there’d be a history of bank robbery since the evil ‘church’ was founded in 1966. If the prime focus of Ford Motors is to sabotage GM & Chrysler, there’d be a history of mysterious explosions, defamatory announcements, etc, not just on one particular day, but pretty much since Henry Ford’s time. If the Muslims are THE vehicle of the Devil & if their chief purpose is to destroy Jews and/or Christians, there’d be wheelbarrows & bushel baskets-full of evidence. You’d just need to hoe a huge pile of evidence into a gigantic pile reaching up to the leaves on your shade trees, & then just sort out, let’s say, the top 10 or 15 proofs (carefully laying aside the inchworms) & show them to your hopelessly benighted correspondent. But my repeated challenges to you for historical proof have been met with silence. Ditto with my challenge to prove Biblically your interpretation of prophecy. If my next-door neighbor happened to be Muslim (I don’t have any idea if he/she is) & if he slapped me so hard that I spit teeth or if he spray-painted our chihuahuas, would you say Islam is at war with Christianity, or would you rightly point out that a stranger slapped me/spray-painted our dogs?

    Isa. 29: 20-21“The ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear, and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down—-those who with a word make a man out to be guilty, who ensnare the defender in court and with false testimony deprive the innocent of justice.”

    You make people out to be guilty with words like ‘terrorism,’ & you deprive the innocent of justice with false testimony that has the effect of protecting aggressors. God detests acquitting the guilty (Prov 17:15). When Muslims react to brutal aggression, you erase the aggression, even declaring that you will not notice it due to the fact that the scholar isn’t up to snuff—-but “rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry” I Sam 15:23 & “you [ie, God] have exalted above all things [including, above Sheila’s opinion of atheists] your…word” Psa 138:2c (see Jas. 1:19)—— & then you magnify their response to attacks & oppression into a world-historical contest between good (ie, non-Muslims) and evil (ie, Muslims). Category error # 15 (Btw, if a Hindu discovered a flaw in my thinking or factual errors during a debate, would you believe I should ignore him due to his polytheism?)

    I wasn’t being unkind to you in my 3/21 post, friend, with all those Bible verses.

    1 Cor. 5:11 “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is…a slanderer…. With such a man do not even eat.”

    My dear sister in Christ, I’m honestly not angry with you; nor do I bear even the slightest ill-will against you. But I’ll have to shun you in order to remain in God’s will, according to the above verse, unless you repent of your slander. You’re not wrong to decry Islam. You’re not wrong to object to Muslim wrongdoing. But describing Israel’s victims, whether Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, etc as Jew-hating aggressors is slander, as I’ve demonstrated at great length during our dialogue. (My 4/9 post was around 8,000 words. Altogether my posts are probably around 35,000 words or so). Look me up when you get to heaven!! I’d love to hang out with you. :):):) May God bless you richly, Sheila!

  88. Well, I feel the same way, Jon, I’m not angry with you. I’ve not anywhere upheld violence, neither by the Palestinians, nor, the Israeli’s. But I would never preach to God from His Own Word. You seem to want to brush off those passages that God has spoken, but, that you don’t like, or, you just don’t want to hear them. (?) Perhaps your discernment is failing you as you don’t see yourself in any of the scriptural verses that you have attributed to me. However, I forgive you. Your opinion of me is exactly what I was prepared to hear. “Prophesy” concerning God’s Mercy are really not up for debate. Are not you and I both recipients of it? Has God “used up” all of His Mercy? “Sorry, guys, all out, just gave the last of it away!.” As you said, not only are the Muslims and the Atheists made in God’s image, so are the Jews. Although, I do have to thank you for that statement, “made in God’s image”, as it’s sent me on a month long quest reading numerous commentaries that are available on that topic and I’ve learned a great deal. If you were still speaking to me, I could have shared it with you.

    And about the video that you promised to watch, but are just now alerting me to it’s faulty status, well, I guess it must be a Satanic attack!!! I’ll check it again for any others interested in it. However, I do have a little bit of extra time right now, so, in the spirit of this forum, I will prayerfully consider whether to answer your post, if only for the sake of others who might be reading this.

    I was at least expecting an acknowledgment of the Satan masquerading as Allah.

    And now, Jon,:

    May the Lord bless you and keep you.
    May the Lord make His face to shine upon you,
    and be gracious to you.
    May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you
    and give you His peace.

  89. I found the video on youtube. It’s listed under the headings for “Obsession: Radical Islam’s War on the West.”, however, the full length version was posted as, “Radical Islam Documentary” by “simpletoremember.” It is 1:17 mins. long. It doesn’t appear to have any “stand-ins” playing the parts of the jihadists.

  90. For anyone at all who is interested in discovering exactly why the Church has not replaced Israel, with the scriptural proofs presented, you can find them in the book, “Has the Church Replaced Israel?: A Theological Evaluation.”

    You can download Kindle for PC, “Whispersync” and read the first chapter for free. The following was taken from Amazon.com:

    Product Description

    The relationship between Israel and the church continues to be a controversial topic led by this question: Does the church replace, supersede, or fulfill the nation of Israel in God’s plan, or will Israel be saved and restored with a unique identity and role?

    In Has the Church Replaced Israel?, author Michael J. Vlach evaluates the doctrine of replacement theology

    (also known as supersessionism) down through history but ultimately argues in favor of the nonsupersessionist position. Thoroughly vetting the most important hermeneutical and theological issues related to the Israel/church relationship, Vlach explains why, “there are compelling scriptural reasons in both testaments to believe in a future salvation and restoration of the nation Israel.”

    About the Author

    Michael J. Vlach is professor of Theology at The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, California. He holds degrees from the University of Nebraska (B.S.), The Master’s Seminary (M.Div.), and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (Ph.D.).

  91. Sheila, Shunned, Oh No, not to be included in the circle of accusation, incrimination, and adulteration! It is a greater reality for a promised purpose that God’s own ego strength saturated with Christ’s love continues to bear with us, as errant and uncouth as we are, stuck on the ideation of redemption being extended to all who turn to God in Christ, until the Lord Returns. Think of it, the Lord returning, as promised, to the Mt. of Olives in an existing nation of Israel. Thanks for your dedication and follow through, my sister.

  92. FYI, Google also reproduces the entire Obseesion documentary as can be found there. I won’t give the URL address, because, anyone actually seeking the truth will have the motivation to extend the effort to find the documentary, and view it, and draw obvious conclusions from it.

  93. Oh, and “Jon”, shunned or not, Peter speaks of realizing our inheritance through the Promises of God, in the Messiah. Setting two century ago idealistic Zionism aside, simply for its obvious lack of faith, as such, what are the promises extended forward from Abraham, Moses, and David to the People of the Land of the Book of books? [BTW, being "Shunned" for not supporting your view of Islamists sounds like an Amish horror movie, which is, of course, a self contradiction (you can supply the proper term, minding your Ps and Qs as you do. Try next time to study covenant promises, Prophetic redemption, eschatology, then catagories, as such. The premise is to orient Holiness in God, not in humans. Viewed "Obsession" yet? I doubt it, as it shows the very heart of Islam, and the Koran. Clue on understanding the existence of Israel after almost 1900 years: it has to do with God's faithfulness, not human sin. If being in relationship with God in Christ was about humans, Jews or Gentiles, being sinless, where would you end up?].

  94. Deja vu?

    How many times is the Obama Administration going to dis’ our FRIENDS? He has no time to talk to Netanyahu again?!

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