I find many Christians who support the restoration of the Jewish people to their homeland in Israel also subscribe to the end-time teaching known as the pre-tribulation rapture. This teaching holds that Jesus will return first as a “thief in the night” to snatch away the Church prior to a hellish reign of terror by a false messiah in the last days. He will then come again with His Church to destroy all satanic rule on this planet and establish the long-awaited Messianic Age.
But have these Christians who hold this view stopped to consider, as I finally did, that this teaching is fundamentally opposed to the heart and soul of Christian Zionism?
I do not know how many of our readers have had the same experience, but I certainly have. Now it must be stated that any position on theology must be based in scripture first and foremost. Although spending most of my formative years in a Scofield Bible, within the first year of college I had abandoned Dispensationalism based on a different look at the texts in the Bible. But at this point in my life, I was not able to see some of the implications of my beliefs and their impact on the connection to Israel. Brian Hennessy continues on with his own experience
It didn’t take long to see where the problem lay. At almost every pro-Israel event there would be a time of public repentance for turning our backs – and often our weapons – on the Jews over the centuries. We’d loudly proclaim that “we will never abandon you again.” Either by keeping silent in times of persecution, as so many did during the Holocaust. Or by doctrinally distancing ourselves again through the acceptance of Replacement Theology.
Yet by embracing a rapture theology, aren’t we already planning to abandon them again? And at a time when Israel and the Jews will need us the most? Worse, we crow about our “saving event” without a blush or a word of apology to our Jewish friends. What must the Jews think? No doubt they are grateful for our present support, but I’m sure they won’t be holding their breath waiting for us to show up once the feathers hit the fan. What is wrong with us? Have we learned nothing from our past betrayals of our brothers? Are we just going to be happy-clappy cheerleaders for the State of Israel as long as the skies are sunny? But when dark clouds come will we quickly start looking for the rapture bus to get us out of here – fast?
Those are sobering words. It is a functional disconnect between theology and relationship. I have said this in conversations with other believers that a “pre-tribulation rapture is anti-Semitic.” Now, those are strictly my words and this observation took over a decade to develop. I say it that way to make us think. A case in point without much personal input is my experience with my father. He had great RESPECT and love for the Jewish people and it is here where I attribute my ‘nascent Zionism.’ Guess what? I know my dad was not anti-Jew, but was his theology? In unpacking some dispensational thought Hennessy reasons
Darby, who is known as the “father of dispensationalism,” believed God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different ages or “dispensations.” Christians belong to the latest dispensation, an age of grace, and are considered God’s “heavenly people.” But the descendants of Abraham – at least those who came before Jesus, plus those who didn’t accept Him as Messiah after He came – belonged to the dispensation of Law and are God’s “earthly people.” The only exception to this rule are Jews who do believe in Jesus. They are counted as part of the Church and those alive at Jesus return can get on the rapture “bus.”
Although he taught that the Church and Israel would always remain separate and distinct, he believed both groups play parallel roles in God’s plan of salvation. And will receive parallel inheritances. That is, he didn’t teach that the Jews had been disenfranchised by the Church, as Replacement Theology taught. But he didn’t see the Church as being a continuation or enhancement of Israel, either.
So maybe 
I can get my dad off the hook by this logic, but how about those who do not believe in dispensationalism but still have the vestige of a sudden rapture, leaving unsaved Israel behind. If after a thorough look at Scripture you still attest to this view, then I obviously accept that and will not allow us to be divided (Psalm 133). There was never a scientific study done on my part, but via attendance at Messianic conferences, reading Jewish leaders writings and at one time being an active member in a Messianic congregation I observed a trend that they did not ascribe to this view.
In a recent interview of Ron Cantor, an Israeli believer, on Line of Fire radio, host Dr. Michael Brown briefly discusses this issue. Cantor states that most Messianic believers , IN ISRAEL, hold to a post-Tribulation paradigm. (Conversation starts at approximately the 30 minute mark, emphasis mine). This corroborates my experience.
The point here is to help define the relationship of the Church to Israel and clarify the roles of Jew (even unsaved) and gentile believer. Also, how do you daily LIVE your life thinking “Any minute I am out of here.” As opposed to preparing your life knowing you (the Church) are required to live through Israel’s ‘darkest hour’ for a divine purpose and witness.
So coming into focus the question is “What does it say to the unsaved Jewish person, when we sincerely want them to see the reflection of Messiah in our life, if we hold to this escapist mentality?” Once again the thoughts of Brian Hennessy:
Therefore, if we are going to be solidly in Israel’s corner as we promised, we can’t also be planning for an early exit. Their fight is also our fight. We must come alongside them, not just as fans, but as family. It doesn’t matter that the majority of Jews do not recognize us or accept us yet as mishpochah. We know it is true! Therefore we have to act in faith and believe we have a stake in this game. The blessings of Israel are something we too will share in if we faint not.
But if we only rejoice over the reestablishment of Israel because it is a prophetic sign that Jesus is coming soon. Or because it is merely an encouragement that if God is faithful to them He’ll be faithful to us. Or because it shows we now reject Replacement Theology, even though we still hold fast to Darby’s Separation Theology – then our Zionism is indeed a hollow shell.
No, we must be in this for the long haul. We must be one with the Jews, come what may, and trust we will rejoice with them at the glorious deliverance our God has promised to perform for us. “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for calamity; to give you a hope and a future” (Jer. 29:11).
John Paul is is an Associate Editor for Voice of Revolution, overseeing Jewish Issues.
Tags: Christian Zionism,
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pre tribulation rapture,
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replacement theology,
ron cantor,
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Can you please back your position on rejected a pre-tribulation rapture up with scripture. I would like to understand your point of view in more depth. I would love to engage in discussion.
I am open to whatever the lord has to revel to the church, please back up that theory with the scripture.
@Jesse, Josh
I would recommend “The Approaching Advent of Christ” by Alexander Reese for your consideration – he addresses the problems with a pre-trib position very thoroughly. The book has been out of print for some time but you may get it from after market resellers – majority of the text is available online at http://www.theologue.org/ApproachingAdvent1-Reese.htm. Also, while I do not hold to the pre-wrath view, Marv Rosenthal has some good points against pre-trib position in his book, “The pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church”.
I will admit that this is a very emotional issue for many believers, and rather than being caught up in the intricacies of when exactly the rapture will take place, let us agree that very Godly men have differed on this matter – its best to live out of lives in obedience to the light God has given us. In this vain I would highly recommend Watchman Nee’s very short essay called “Rapture” available on the page http://ftp.kingdomtruth.us/wn_rapt.html
I believe the burden of proof is on those who teach a pre-tribulation rapture to show where the Bible explicitly speaks of two separate resurrections of believers. For the “rapture” experience is about the bodily resurrection of the Church – first the dead and then those alive at the Lord’s coming (1 Cor. 15:51,52; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Clearly the standard arguments given to defend the pre-trib rapture theory are flawed. For example, he “thief in the night” does not come for the Church, but for the unbeliever: “For you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief” (1Thess. 5:4).
The “one who will be taken” in Matt. 24:40 again is the unbeliever and is likened to those who drowned in the flood. The “one who is left,” is likened to Noah and his family on the Ark.
The argument that the Church is missing after the third chapter in the Book of Revelation is incorrect because other words that mean the Church are found throughout the Book during the tribulation period. The word “saints” in Rev. 13:7,10; 14:12). And the expression “those who hold to the testimony of Jesus” (12:17; 14;12) .
Finally, Paul told us the “day of the Lord” will not come before we see the great apostasy and the revealing of anti-Christ (2 Thess. 2:1-4), and no doubt the “abomination of desolation” (Matt 24:15,22) which will deceive even the elect (Church) if God did not intervene.
The “church” root word is a polluted word; it originally meant “cirque,” not “ekklesia;” Cirque is a name of an idol, prince of the devil or goddess of the devil, based on a Babylonian collection of idols. Bible Printer named Tyndale died for not compromising to use “assembly” instead of “church.” Ekklesia is “a body” of people, or you could use “body of Yeshua;” or “called out ones.” Saints are “set apart,” made “Holy” only by Yahweh. As a former baptist, you will never see me use words like “bible(biblios) for scriptures; “Jesus” which meant “Iesos”; for Yeshua and “God” for Yahweh; also surprised to know “Sabbath” as the real worship day for our beloved Yeshua. Sabbath is “a day” of unprecedented relationship to our Maker and Saviour. We were robbed of the true rest. A lot of Christian Teachers, with Doctorate Decrees, are clinging onto “Sun-day,” twisting the context of Romans 14.5-6, Matt 5:17, Cols 2:14-17, and Romans 10:4. When I realized the truth(Daniel 7.25) and tried to bring out the new-found freedom, I was ostracized by “my own” and currently facing the onslaught of negative spiritual powers. I never knew this was true for those who now know the reality and standing up for “sabbath.” Saints are the “called out ones” or the “body of Yeshua.”
I too, was raised on a pre-trib rapture. The rapture is a resurrection, but the first resurrection comes after the great tribulation according to John in Revelation 20:4-5. There is no first before the first, now is there?
I have a copy of Margaret’s own words relating to Darby’s so called pre-trib rapture vision theory that Margaret had. But in her own words she did not claim any pre-trib rapture at all! In fact, she does claim that the Body of Christ will be reared up in glorious power (not resurrected) BEFORE JESUS COMES!
I was reading 2 Thess chapters one and two early one morning, when I read that Antichrist or the “man of sin”t seated himself in the temple of God.. 2:3 states: “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and that man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition…etc.V 8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His Coming, etc..” Immediately, when I read that the Lord gave revelation that I would not be raptured before the “man of sin” was revealed! And then, Praise His Holy Name, Jesus by the Spirit began to add many scriptures to this revelation.
I wrote one time: “How can we Christians even think that being now a part of the Olive Tree, are going to miss the Great Tribulation and leave Israel here to suffer and get through it? In the Apostle’s Paul teaching in Roman’s 11 relating to Israel and the “Wild Olive Branch,” he does not teach that the Gentile branch will be rapture out…but rather CUT OFF!”
MAY THE LORD BLESS ISRAEL AND THE GENTILE BRANCHES BOTH IN THE “ONE NEW MAN,” THE BODY OF MESSIAH JESUS, YESHUA!
lori
Here John Paul is so concerned about leaving unsaved Jews behind (who have had the same opportunity as gentiles to believe in the messiah), but mocks his (pre-trib) Christian brothers by attributing this train of thought to them:
**Also, how do you daily LIVE your life thinking “Any minute I am out of here.” **
I really don’t get it. Paul arrives at his conclusions by what “feels right.”
The “great escape” is a straw man. VOR could do better than to publish rubbish like this.
Unfortunately, the Jews have NOT had the same opportunity as gentiles to hear the gospel. As Paul informs us n Romans 11, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.” But their misfortune (judgment, really) became a blessing for us. Because when they were made “enemies of the Gospel,” God could then show mercy to us. But we were allowed to see the hidden plan of God so we would not be arrogant to these Jewish branches who have for the most part been unresponsive to the Gospel. Paul told us that when all the gentiles who were called and chosen for His namesake had been found, He would remove the “stupor” from the hearts of the Jews and grant to them the same mercy to hear and receive the gospel as we. And then – “all Israel would be saved.”
That is why the Jews are back in the land today, and why we should care very much about them. And not be trying to leave them as we see the coming tribulation. But rather to understand that “if their rejection [of the gospel for the last 2000 years] is the reconciliation of the world [to God], what will their acceptance [of the Gospel] be – but life from the dead!”
Jesus said, “salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22). It was then, and it still is. Through them we received the Scriptures, our Messiah, and the hope of eternal life. We are in their debt. And without them them the new heaven and the new earth – and life from the dead – will not come!
I will allow that some have suffered from stupor, others not. If the level of stupor is as high as you imply, then why evangelize at all?
However, I would trust that if God sees fit to remove the church, and if God has a plan for the Jews, then perhaps that plan does not include those raptured.
“why we should care very much about them”
A pre-trib viewpoint does not necessarily implu lack of caring.
” And not be trying to leave them as we see the coming tribulation”
I don’t think any rational pre-tribbers are “trying to leave.”
Thanks for illustrating some more of the typical straw-men built against pre-tribbers,
Good point, Lori. The resurrection of believers is called “the FIRST resurrection” by John in Rev. 20:5. And it clearly FOLLOWS the tribulation, because it will include many who have suffered a martyrs death under anti-Christ (v. 4). There is a second resurrection that will take place after the 1000-year reign of Messiah on earth (seated in his church?) – but that iwill be for the judgment of the unbeliever. There is no mention of two resurrections for BELIEVERS. And certainly not one BEFORE the tribulation.
That’s why the pre-trib rapture teaching as taught by Darby/Scofield and others is a false teaching. And threatens to leave many in the body of Messiah unprepared for what is coming. That teaching was promoted in China prior to the terrible persecution they suffered in recent years. They had to learn the truth the hard way. But what a thriving body of believers exists now in China because they have learned how to trust God in the midst of it all. And He will watch over and strengthen us as well. But we need to wake up and get spiritually prepared for what is coming.
I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. For many reasons. Some have been stated here, as relates to scripture. Scripture speaks for itself, if a person truly desires the things that God desires, and allows God’s Spirit to interpret scritpure and does not solely rely on the opinion’s of men. God is foremost the one we should seek and consult when it comes to the interpretation of God’s word. We might see scripture differently viewed through God’s eyes and not the eyes of the theologians who have come since the third century of the church. View’s of scripture have many times throughout history been influenced by ideals that are not scriptural. The Apostles warned us numerous times of this. If Yeshua, warned us that we would suffer on account of him and the Gospel. If many saints have been martyred throughout history for God’s Word. If Israel, who were called the apple of God’s eye were not spared suffering, why then are we to believe that God would suddenly remove us from the scene and let the remainder of Israel to suffer alone and abandoned. This is not God’s way. His heart is revealed in the scriptures. The whole of His scriptures if anyone searches deeply enough and allows God to lead his understanding. “Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your path”. This scripture can not be plain enough in its understanding. Our current suffering is training us for WAR. We are weapons, arrows, if you will in the quiver of God being sharpened to be loosed at the right time. God’s time. What sense does it make for God to put away His arrows before the battle has begun. The real test of who we are in Messiah will be revealed during the Tribulation. Then we will see the real measure of our faith.
I must kindly disagree with Lori (above) and her conclusion that Margaret Macdonald (the way she spelled her last name) did not teach a pretrib rapture. I can see how Lori might conclude this because of statements in Margaret’s 1830 interpretation of scripture such as “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist.” This looks like the posttrib view, doesn’t it? And such statements fooled even leading scholars such as Charles Ryrie. After I did some deep research on Macdonald I found that she was a partial rapturist. What Ryrie and some others seemingly have been unaware of, or else didn’t have time to check out, is that partial rapturists are pretrib in outlook! Even John Walvoord’s classic book “The Rapture Question” says that partial rapturists are “pretribulationists” (p. 105). Partial rapturists believe that only PART of the church will be raptured while the rest of the church (supposedly not worthy enough) will be left on earth to endure the Antichrist. Some leading partial rapturists of the past include Pember, Seiss, Govett, and Lang. A partial rapturist prophecy chart would show a pretrib rapture (of part of the church) and then show “church” on earth during the tribulation. In their writings, Pember etc. use the word “church” to describe those left behind and they state things exactly the way Margaret did. Some later well-known partial rapturists have included A. B. Simpson and the late Rex Humbard. Not only was Margaret the first to teach any sort of coming BEFORE the Antichrist (and therefore before the great tribulation), she soon influenced Rev. Edward Irving and his followers who soon, in their publications, reflected her novel view without giving her any credit (it was definitely a man’s world back then!). And it also seems that John Darby was behind both her and the Irvingites in teaching pretrib since he clearly did not teach it until 1839, 9 years after Margaret and Irving’s journal taught it. Google “X-Raying Margaret” and “Edward Irving is Unnerving” for info on the very earliest development of all this. The best book I have read on this is MacPherson’s “The Rapture Plot” which many leading evangelical scholars have endorsed – which book I obtained at Armageddon Books. It even has much evidence that Darby should never have been called the “father” of dispensationalism! Just my two cents and I hope I got things straight and want to be corrected if I stated anything wrong. God bless.
Forgive me, but I failed to mention a Google article with the title of “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” which shows that dispensationalism has definite anti-Jewish roots in its foundation. The evidence in it should be of great interest to Drs. Brown and Keener and anyone else who loves Jewish persons as much as I do! Brenda
I am pleased to see that Dr. Brown has changed his position (as so many others have after deeper study into God’s Word). For good references look up Goerge Eldon Ladd, F.F. Bruce, Douglas Moo, etc..as well as do a little historical research on the church and a pre-trib rapture loses not only it’s 20th Century steam but also any “contextual” scriptural support. Many good scriptures have already been quoted in the remarks so suffice it to say that no scriptures have been given in support (because none exist without inference).
What we must be cautious about is the “divide” our differences can cause and we must remember “unity” is our Lord’s prayer for His children. This is NOT a salvation issue (if you believe pre-, mid, or post). Rom. 10:9-10 tells us what is required to be saved (one’s position on Christ’s return in not a requirement) and 1 John continues by telling us the result of our salvation is reflected in our “obediance” to God’s Word, not ressurrection timing.
I am not certain (as of yet) what role the fleshly Jews play in the scheme of things. Matt. 22:7-8 says they “were not worthy” and Luke 14:23-24 “…’For I tell you, none of those men who where invited shall taste of my dinner.'” I have yet to find a “restored nation of Israel” that serves God as it did in the O.T. until the Second Coming of Christ and those that pierced Him repent and turn back to God. The “remnant” is not a nation but a people from out of a nation Rev. 7, and it is the “remnant” that is saved, not a nation. Just my thoughts….Paul has a unique take on the Jews (flesh) and those of the “promise” (spiritual) in Galatians.
@ Charles…I agree completely “The real test of who we are in Messiah will be revealed during the Tribulation. Then we will see the real measure of our faith.” Also Rev. 19 is a beautiful picture of the return of our King to receive His Bride.
I am greatly encouraged by this discussion. It has been too long in coming! One other excellent resource is Robert Van Kampen’s The Rapture Question Answered, available on the ABEBooks website for very low prices.
I also want to urge everyone to think about how the ekklesia CAN and must be united by love of the truth and the obedience to the truth enjoined by all the apostles. If the walls of Heavenly Jerusalem are built upon the Lamb’s 12 foundation stones, and the entrance into the City be the 12 pearls, then can we aspire to win any Jew unless we are reading the same Torah along with them, and interpreting the haftara week by week for them from the Messianic revelation?
Please, please, do not forsake the reading of Torah! I have practiced this myself for over four years now [saved in 1976 and a regular, serious Bible student ever since.] Do you know that daily Torah reading was enjoined upon the king in Deuteronomy 17:19? It is no wonder that Jesse’s son David received such favor.
Reading the Torah according to the Jewish liturgical schedule is an unfailing source of current-to-the-day strength and beauty for my life and I think it is the best way to learn the Hebrew language. I know that their liturgy doesn’t contain Isaiah 53, but neither has any Jew ever failed to respond to me with respect and an open ear to this encouraging stance, even when I admit that I am a Gentile and that I do no attempt to be strictly Sabbath-observant.
“Great peace have they that love Thy law…”
Dave, we already have the “Torah” in our Bibles (with Isaiah 53). It is just called the “Old Testament.” And most Christians also have daily devotionals and planned readings that draw from it regularly. So why do we need to borrow the daily devotional of our Jewish brethren? I don’t see how that would aid in evangelism, either. If straight preaching of the gospel has little effect right now, how would reading along with them change anything?
But you are right in saying we should not neglect the previous writings thinking that the New Testament is the Christians half of the Bible and that’s all we need. All the words and promises of the Bible are ours in Messiah Jesus (2 Cor. 1:20). For the Bible is one continuous story of the promises to the family of Abraham, to whose family we belong (Gal. 3:29). Which is why the Jewish followers quoted from the “Torah” constantly to show us how all these words were written for us in Messiah.
@ Brenda,
Pre-Trib rapture position was popularized by JN Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, which through the Scofield Bible became mainstream. However, in all fairness, to attribute Pre-trib view to the Irvingites and to suggest that JND got his idea of a pre-Trib Rapture position from them has been thoroughly dismissed by scholars. For further help, pls. see http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/alleged-irvingite-influence-on-darby-and-rapture
Once again, we must recognize the Lord’s people in every denomination of man’s making, in each and every camp, and be thankful for them. There is a lot of animosity generated by “I am right you are wrong” attitude on all of these rapture position sides, including the Post-trib position. May we be more concerned by the exhortation of Apostle John, “And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.” (1 Jn 2:28)
Addendum: This has been a personal cross for me to bear – I grew up in a pre-trib home and community – very Godly people, I came to faith through their ministry and I praise God for them. However, I started having doubts on the pre-Trib position especially because of the way it leaves out all the curses for the Jews and all the blessings for the Church (of course I speak in broad-strokes). After studying every “Trib” position out there – Post Trib, Mid Trib, Pre-wrath, Partial Rapture….I see how there are good points to all of these positions, and I made it my business to call myself Pre-Mil – and rather than investing my life in the exact timing of these things, understand, that the Lord rewards faithfulness. My life’s desire is that I would hear those golden words from my Lord, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant”. And while I am on this earth, I desire to be close to Him in my walk, communing with Him and learning Him.
I apologize, if I came across in any of my earlier posts are proud or trying to teach. May the Lord have all the Glory. Amen,
Pre-Trib is a false teaching and the issue here goes much deeper than whats going to happen to the Jews. The TRUE body of Messiah needs to be reeducated. First of all if Messiah was gonna return for the church and leave and then come again, that would be a 3RD COMING! There is no 3rd coming of Messiah. First coming, he came as the Lamb to take away the sins of the world. Then He is gonna return as the Lion and be seated in Israel and reign as King WHEN THE JEWS CALL HIM BACK! When it says in Corinthians about him coming, saying the dead in Messiah will rise first and then those who are alive will meet him, it is addressing the context point of those who died and alive when he does come. It doesn’t say he leaves again and then comes back again! NO then the other scriptures kick in about him coming with thousands upon thousands of his Holy ones to rule. That’s what happens next. Most of Christian end time theology is way off because the the rightful teachers have not been in their place in the body to teach it right, those are the Jews. The Jews today aren’t ready to teach because they came into Christian flawed and shallow teaching which laid their foundation improperly. Remember Zechariah 8 where it says the 10 gentiles will grab the garment of a Jew and say that we will go with you because we heard that God is with you. Remember Paul who said about his brethren according to the flesh- THEIRS ARE THE COVENANTS AND THE PROMISES AND THE FATHERS AND THE SCRIPTURES. I can go on and on about this in much much more detail, I have studied these Topics for years in the Lord! Id be willing to meet with any of you to discuss all of these things in more detail, with scriptural backing! Im tired of hearing about Pre trib, Post trib or any of it! Its an education from the roots we need!
Interesting discussion. There is only one “Day of the Lord” spoken of in scripture, and, that too is subject to interpretation until actually occurring. A key point, in addition to the word rapture not being found in scripture as used for its mentioned Parousia reference, or Christ’s appearing in the clouds for splendor and wrath on that Day, as accompanies one aspect of the RETURN phenomena: there comes judgement against those over which it is decreed in scripture in the Prophets of Old and in the Revelation and the Mt. of Olives discourse (Acts 3:21. Important in insight from Peter, for, he had the word from Jesus on restraint of the return until the words of the Prophets were completed on earth–mostly in reference to Israel and the Messianic Kingdom promised her). To gain a more complete view seeing more of what are the positive aspects of the appearing (rapture) for believers, and negative to unbelievers is in order.
Positive: 1)believers are caught up to be with Him (forever) on His appearing: first those dead in Christ, then those living rise to meet Him (he is coming “for and with” his saints, for many scriptural reasons, some having to do with pre New Covenant faithful, some to do with those waiting their bodies to clothe their awaiting spirits coming with Him from heaven); 2) this comes prior to judgment, and changes to the whole earth on the appearing, per Daniel’s final kingdom words, the Revl., and many other passages; 3) believers are caught up to be with Him on His Parousia, then to also experience His manifestation of His glory (Ephiphenea), for it is a real stretch of belief or doctrinal assumption to project any personal desire for such a manifestation into his people on earth PRIOR to His Return (read Peter, who knew)–this event then is the co-revelation of the manifest Sons of God (over which many a false assumptive self absorbed doctrine has been constructed by those who apparently wish to command the supernatural actions of God in Christ on earth prior to that Day and be identified as religious kingpins through such assumption); 4) the questions asked by the Apostles about the Temple, the Restoration of the Kingdom promised a descendant of David as established in Jerusalem from the Mt. of Olives thereafter are finally answered (forming new rivers streaming from that location on the assumption of the Kingdom per Zech.); on this first resurrection and catching up into the clouds or higher atmosphere at the appearing, bodies likened to Jesus’ resurrected body are put on incorruptible by the saints (I Cor 15); after simultaneously dealing with armies coming against Israel, and Jerusalem, as the defender of Israel’s future and past Promise, the government of God in Christ is established on earth for a Millennium, which also completes promises given to the People of the Land of the Book of the chosen Nation; those who were martyred on earth will reign with the returning Messiah, or his appointed Prince (unclear in scripture); an ear of righteousness, justice, mercy, and restoration of all things occurs on earth after His feet touch the Mt. of Olives of Zion; the eye has not seen, nor the ear heard all that will be in that magnificent time; hearing the last trumpet, and the invitation to the wedding of the bride and bridegroom coincidentally happens with his coming; having our enemies, the enemies of God in Christ bound; being spared from the wrath to come and experiencing the splendor involved with the assumption of His Advent; the saints return with Him for His Kingdom of righteousness, peace, and joy as agents of his government.
Negative; the “sorrows” which Jesus spoke of on the Mt. of Olives; persecution of believers (already having occurred since the first visitation, and increasing under the Roman self declared emperors, when believing they were Gods, then the Jewish religious culture, now increasing under other world religions, especially under Nazism, Communism, now Islam); being on earth during the time of testing “such has not occurred” at any other time than that occurring, where, “unless the days were shortened” even the elect would be deceived; all the woes He outlined in the Mt. of Olives; being hated of all nations “for my name’s sake”; being radically misunderstood, where good is spoken of as evil, and evil as good; being separated in fellowship from future brethren only to yet be established of the Jewish people on his Return, thus until that event being regarded as pagans by these people (not so by actual believers in Israel); watching and experiencing the great “falling away”; not being able to buy food without the mark of the Beast, which leads to perdition and separation from God in Christ if taken; finding an increasing division between religiously acceptable “tolerant” society and believers, as “intolerant”; finding the orientation of civilization polarizing against Israel (until the treaty is made which leads to the future Jewish National Identification persecution and martyrdom); finding the actions and activity of the satan and his followers increasingly apparent in world political events and soical-political indicators; watching the unrighteous kingdom of the AC rise and influence hearts and minds as largely unstoppable except by the conversion of individuals to faith in Jesus as the only Way to the Father; being ridiculed for identification with the Atonement of Jesus as adequate for justification; increasing resource and food shortages and rationing; likely police enforcement of persecution of Christians–as now in Egypt,Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Syria, Indonesia, etc–ironically against written laws as presently on paper in many lands of other Gods than Jesus’ Father in identification; martyrdom increasing; seeing the ten nation alliance (Psalm 83) work against the establishment of holiness among the People of the Land of the Book in the face of considerable initial Gentile to Jewish Nation support; finding some personal sense of frustration with the process and cost of discipleship when scales or stupor are over most eyes and minds of those to whom one witnesses in these last days; economic and nature peril threats to well being and order; the heavenlies finally shaken, etc.
To understand that the appearing and catching up to appear with Him is a final event of the end of days of the Age of Gentile dominance (and confusion) is to understand that His people are called to affirm Him, not we ourselves as the Age draws to its polarized conclusions. The outcome of conclusions for many issues and matters of Prophetic and Kingdom establishment are coming to their final testing,proving, and solid establishment at the end as a result of all that is soon ahead, and is now beginning to be apparent in intensity and frequency as the birth pains of the Promised Kingdom–where the spiritual will put on the literal. Where we look then for our literal and considered salvation, according to the words Paul shared on this subject of this article (as given him by the direct instruction of Christ), becomes a considerable matter of mindful and prayerful jurisprudence. Let it be so. –Jabez
Typo at the end of a beginning paragraph, above. “an ear of righteousness, justice, mercy, and restoration of all things occurs on earth after His feet touch the Mt. of Olives of Zion”, obviously should read “an era of righteousness, justice, mercy, and restoration of all things occurs on earth after His feet touch the Mt. of Olives of Zion”
Charles, for what it is worth, here is how I understand “what role the fleshly Jews play in the scheme of things.” And who and where “the restored nation of Israel is that serves God.” It’s a big subject, but I’ll try to be as brief as possible.
Peter calls new covenant believers “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, A HOLY NATION…” (1 Pet. 2:9). He applies to us the very words God ascribed to Israel through the mouth of Moses (see Ex. 19:5,6). So we see that the ones called out to be in Messiah Jesus, both Jew and gentile, to be the “restored nation of Israel that serves God.” Paul even calls us “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16). So the question always is how do we become the holy nation of Israel without getting into replacement theology? That is the false teaching that disenfranchises the unbelieving Jews from their Abrahamic covenant with God, and replaces them with the Christian Church as His only people?
The answer, I believe, is to see that the nation is still under construction. God has “first concerned Himself with taking from among the gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15: 14). The Jews, as I mentioned earlier, were hardened to the gospel until that gentile recruitment process was completed. (I personally believe it now is.) Then God will have mercy on the descendants of the severed branches as He did us. “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all” (Rom. 11:32) That is when “all Israel will be saved” and His kingdom nation shall appear – complete. Not in heaven, but here on earth. (Witness the disciples’ hope that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel right then. It shows they understood the Kingdom of God, which Jesus had just taught on for 40 days, to mean the restored nation of Israel under Messiah. Which Peter confirms in Acts 3:21.)
So how does this relate to the nation we see now in the Middle East called Israel, which is mostly comprised of “fleshly Jews?” I believe she represents the manifestation of the nation in the making. It’s one thing to have a people, but a nation also needs land. So God has called the Jewish people back to their homeland in preparation for their spiritual awakening. (Ezekiel 36 reveals God would first bring them back to their homeland THEN take away their heart of flesh and put His spirit within them. He will do for His namesake. It does not depend on them being righteous first.) At the same time this homecoming will draw out the forces of darkness into confrontation with Himself as regards His covenant promise to them, as we see it doing, so He can destroy them and bring in the Kingdom. (Which is why we don’t want to find ourselves being against Israel.)
Does that mean ALL the Jews are His people and will be saved? No, only a remnant. “For they are not all Israel who are [physically] descended from Israel [i.e Jacob]” – Rom 9:6. God is choosing from among both gentiles and Jews those who are His. We are a chosen people – and we will soon be seen as the restored holy kingdom of God on earth under the Son of David.
Hope that helps.
@MIchael Mishkin
Playing the other side….you would know since you say you studied this matter in depth, that there is a difference between His “coming” (for the saints) (cf. Jn 14:3) and His Glorious Appearing (Heb 9:38). Pre-Trib has no 3rd coming – I’d say its a misunderstanding of their view.
Here’s a regular argument for the Rapture position:
“The Rapture (or translation) of the Church is often paralleled to the “raptures” of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:12) or the ascension of Christ (Acts 1:9), all of whom were “taken up” into heaven. The Bible clearly states: For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Greek, harpazo) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, italics added).” (Dr. Ed Hindson)
When we are speaking about the “rapture” we are speaking of resurrection, are we not? It is about the resurrection of the saints, living and deceased, who will “be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.” The confusion on this topic, I have come to believe, is rooted in our misunderstanding about “resurrection.” For as I discovered to my own dismay a few years back, my understanding was not in line with what the Bible taught.
I realized that I had confused, as most Christians I suspect do, going to heaven to be with Jesus after I die – and my bodily resurrection. That is I thought the resurrection body was the body I put on when I arrived in heaven. Not the one I would wear down here on earth. But when I searched the Bible I did not find even one verse that promised me I would go to live in heaven after I died in a spiritual body. But what I did find is that Jesus is coming back to earth in his resurrected immortal, incorruptible body. And when he does, that is when I will be raised and get my immortal, incorruptible body (1 Cor. 15:52-55). It will all take place here on earth, not in heaven. An only when the last trump sounds.
It seems to me we have bought into a false gentile “Christian” gospel by believing a myth that our ultimate destiny is to live in heaven. Which is where the rapture takes the church. That is the complete opposite of a physical resurrection, the central tenet of the Gospel. For if we are not raised alive on earth – we are still dead. And the joke is on us.
Think about it. If we are going to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven, what’s the point of him coming back and raising the dead? We would already be resurrected. Or why come back to rapture the living? If all believers are going to heaven, why not just let us die and meet us all up there? And if we are going to be in heaven for a perfect eternity, why would we want to leave and come back to earth to put on what – another new kind of spiritual/physical body? The Bible only says there are two kinds of bodies. A physical one and a spiritual one (which I assume is not a non-corporeal Casper the Ghost kind of body, but a powerful new supernatural kind of physical body as Jesus had).
We are told “if there is a natural body, there is a spiritual body” (1 Cor. 15:44). It doesn’t say anything about three bodies. One for earth, one for heaven, and one for the new earth when Jesus comes back. We don’t get a wardrobe to clothe our naked spirit. And the second suit is not given UNTIL Jesus returns and we are raised from the dead. That’s when we put on immortality. Not sure what we get – if anything – right after we die (speaking in earth time). But death to resurrection could take place in a blink, as when we sleep at night. And our death is described as “those who sleep.”
When we believe in a physical resurrection we leave gentile Christianity and enter into the hope and faith of Abraham that God would fulfill all the promises to his people. Even if they died. It is what all the OT saints believed. “And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect” (Heb 11:39,40). This obviously hasn’t happened yet. They are still waiting for us. And we are all waiting for the day when we will be raised in power and holiness to join them. And then “the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem…and nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war” (Isa. 2:3,4).
I put that out for discussion. I’m still working it out.
#21, Peter has, in 2:9, marked a contrast with the disobedient in 2: 7 & 8, and as with the author of Hebrews, speaks figuratively of believers regard in Christ as accomplished participants of the spiritual Kingdom until that Day of the literal Promised Kingdom come. In addition, a careful study of Galations and all allusions to Israel and Jews in it and other writings of Paul reveals that he is not speaking to Gentile believers as being the Israel of God, but to those of Israel who are in Christ. It becomes problematic to create entirely new terms for believers, for, Israel does not cease being Israel, nor Gentiles Gentiles. This is apparent in Romans 9-11, especially in 11 where the redemptive plan for Israel itself–not gentile believers–is given. We have greater clarity on the Israel of God, where not all of Israel are Israel, but those who accept Christ in that present season [this is apparent, for, later in the section all Israel will be saved, not all Gentile believers, but all of Israel who turn to Christ]. Also, Peter is aware of the promises given Israel proper in Acts 2 & 3, leading up to what is still happening in regard to the Promises made to Israel in 3:21. The heavens hold back the return in reference to the Hebrew Prophets of Old.
Further, the Old Covenant is passing away, according to the author of Hebrews, but is not gone, with the New Covenant having different promises and fulfillments for those who cleave to its provisions. Amillennialism was theologically constructed in seasons in the history of the Church where there was little indication of Israel proper continuing as a Nation. Peter however, does address the Nation with indicators of its future Promise in Acts.
#25 Yes, the Parousia catching up of the saints, per Thesl. descriptors, is indeed the resurrection of the saints, where they too come with Jesus if dead, to be clothed with the incorruptible new body (I Cor 15). There is only one return, one appearing, and one reckoning of the injust Age of the Gentiles by the Promised Kingdom of the Messiah from Jerusalem. The Nation today is beginning to play inherent scripts regarding attempting getting the Temple system going again. Yet, as we know, the sacrifice will not Atone forever–as with that of Jesus. It will be sad really, for such a practice both upholds the form of righteous response to the requirements of God externally, yet ignores the necessity of being born from above to see the Kingdom Promised the Nation, of God, in the Messiah. What the Messiah means and meant was only hinted at by the Prophets, and Moses and David, as such. It was by His finished work of reconciliation, and HIs propitiation that we are adopted as children of God (not by the covenant made with Moses is it even possible).
The Day of the Lord is of splendor and wrath. It reckons the divisions carried out as religious social political by those coming against Israel through the forces of the flesh, and, as reinforced by the unseen dark forces of the satan. The age old conflict between He on the Throne of heaven, and the satan cast to the earth is dealt with by what is resolved with the conflict and defense of the chosen Nation on the Return. Zechariah is particularly revealing as to descriptors in this regard. It is the reassertion of all authority in heaven and earth over the earth at the chosen moment. It results in supernatural resurrection, in supernatural restoration, in supernatural assumption of final Redemption, and the particulars of unveiling the forces of darkness by the overpowering light and glory of Christ and his saints. One cannot ignore what Paul has written, by revelation, and what others have regarding the Day of the Lord. That Lord being Jesus the Messiah.
MM.
You say “Pre-Trib is a false teaching and the issue here goes much deeper..” You’re right, it does go much deeper, and I would suggest that better minds than your’s or mine have studied this issue and have arrived at biblically based conclusions that support both pre-trib and post-trib posistions.
I’m not going to call post-trib a false teaching, an it might behoove you to adopt a similar position regarding your pre-trib brothers, if indeed you consider them as such.
I might point out in light of the references to Scofield, Darby and others, that their thoughts and ideas are not embraced by all pre-tribbers and the progressive dispensational framework may have many good (and biblically sound) ideas attached to it- including a more palatable position concerning the Jews.
But I’m not going to argue, point-by-point, the pro and cons of the various posistions on this blog in a short post- books have been written on it. The point I’d like to make (and thank you, James for your thoughts) is that it time to grow up and show a little respect for the various theories as I suspect none of us has gotten it right. Of course, we all see through a glass dimly. I can state that with confidence.
Brenda, Honey, my sister in Christ Jesus: if you will read my comment again, you will find that I did not mention Margaret’s last name. The spelling of the Clan’s name are found lettered thusly: Macdonald, and McDonald, and MacDonaled. If you or anyone would like the full story of the Macdonalds…please email me at: mammalori2002@yahoo.com and I will with pleasure send their story to you and Margaret’s personal written account of the vision she saw and felt. One will be surprised at the “interpretation” which was given that began for us a Pre-Trib rapture/resurrection that Margaret did not see..
May our Lord purify unto Himself a people that have grown to full stature in Himself from the birth of an early Infant Church.
I love you, lori.
About the rapture, to solve this issue just read through the Gospels and you notice now often Jesus speaks on Hell to His disciples and to preserve. Now if we Christians are going to get rapture before the Great tribulation and face no persecution well it would have be pointless of Yeshua talking so much on hell and talking so much on not giving up. He also talks alot about the end times also. In Revelation as we know there is great detail on this. Again if we are all going to get rapture why have a book about it? We aren’t going to be here to see and face it so why go into detail? Why have the book of Revelation???
The Gospels is also about persevering and trusting in the Lord through trial and tribulations. History shows that if confess that Yeshua is Lord we will go trough trials and afflictions. It is not a nice thing to go through but we will go through it. So it is very odd to say to affirm that Jesus will take us out of it and leave the non Christians behind. It does not make sense! If Christ takes us out well who is going to share the Gospel to a a very trouble a wicked world?
In that very generation where the darkness is great Christ light needs to shine even greater!!!! So there needs to be Christians there to stand up for Him and reach those who do not know Christ. The need would be urgent as ever before! People still need to be saved! So how can us Christians proclaim that we be taken out when they are people that need to be save??? Is this not selfish?
If some say well we all get rapture because God is out pouring His wrath on the World well go and read the book on David Pawson When Jesus returns and he explains it very well…
I got a good link on Corrie ten boom and on the rapture go and read it and think and pray about it.. Some astounding facts you all need to be aware off.
The one really important thing here is like a fire alarm and drills you know there will be no fires but you prepared just in case.
So with the tribulation it is better to prepared and ask the Lord to help you so if we do face the Great tribulation we would remain faithful and steadfast and not abandon Christ and turn evil. Is this not a better outlook then to say and conclude WOOHOOO we are getting out of trouble so we can relax and not worry? And worse say well you do not need to pray and seek the Lord to strengthening you spiritually because it is not needed? And Just enjoy life knowing that you will escape the horrors? Is this a healthy Biblical outlook to your faith in Christ? Just close your ears and believe and say nothing of what you say will convince me that I will go through tribulation? And say you are convince that you will escape the rapture? Why not just be prepared and ask the Lord to help you? What harm will it be to do this?
And also If you have any love of Christ in you, you would be wanting to share the Gospels with others in that time and not just just pray and hope that you get rapture away. This does not mean you have to go out and die but it does show that if you can that you still share the Gospel to those who need to hear at that point in time..
And also I am wrong in this and the rapture happens and we do not go through trouble well that is great then a relief too. But also I seriously doubt that our generation is the last there might be generations to go before that happens. But anyway if it did and the Lord takes us out of it then well there was nothing to lose then to prepare spiritually. We only grow and mature so it was all good practice! :)
So have this healthy approach and not close your ears and say it is rapture and rapture only…
Here is a link to read up what Corrie ten boom thinks of it! Gets you thinking!
http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
And get the book from David Pawson – When Christ returns
Suggest book , There is no Santa Claus, There is no Tooth Fairy and there is “NO RAPTURE” by Jack Wasson available @ Amazon.com. Several hundred Sciptures regarding the Second Coming are included at no extra charge.
Jack,
I appreciate your condescending attitude and shameless self-promotion. I’d suggest for your next book “Why Jesus won’t battle modern armies in Egypt for a month before touching down on the Mount of Olives” and see if you can do as well with so-called Apostolic Pre-Millenialism. You can be sure that will be a best seller in Kansas City. :)
I love you guys!
-Bill
The world waxed further toward confusion and fear coming of antichrist in tipping its scales measuring right and wrong to include a multitude of secretive terrorists carrying out their chaotic plans all over in the places found on our well ordered maps. Soon nations will oppose Israel en mass to legitamize a terrorist state. Prior to this enemies were known or labled indeed at least by their political or geographic boundaries. A nation or army under attack knew for the most part which direction to aim its response. Now we have enemies without boundaries, borders, or Biblical regard for a common moral plumbline. These include terrorists, relativists, those who live for pleasure, and those who are aquainted with no logic or way which permits a quiet and peaceful life.
Whether believers are caught to be with the Lord in the air prior to, during, or after tribulation, Peter says first antimessiah will be revealed, and a great falling away from our faith. Daniel and Zechariah tell of the state of the world’s armies when the Messiah is revealed to Israel: coming against the Land of the People of the Book.
The antimessiah will take to task all that has been exalted as of God in Christ affecting a soon past civilized order. In his season we will trim our lamps both to survive and to have a sustainable faith. Drought, famine, war, nature out of balance, signs in the heavenlies, food rationing, economic peril, persecution occur–while with our hearts, minds, and orientation we look increasingly for the Return.
One thing remains certain, it is Jesus who will appear and gather His to Himself prior to his feet landing on the Mt. of Olives. Our calling is to endure, irregardless of that reality happening. When it happens it will be His call, not our own. Enduring adopted children of God look to Him, not to their fleshly status or religious glory as the Day draws nearer for Jesus’ glory to be revealed.
Someone who is aware I have written a book on the subject included in this blog post sent me a link and requested I “participate”. There were quite a few requesting “Scriptures” for the position cited in the Blog. In the interest of “not reinventing the wheel” I pointed the the book I have already written on the subject; “No Rapture” and said it was available on Amazon.com. I also made mention there were several hundred Scriptures cited in the book, all on the subject of the Second Coming and contributing to the disproval of the Pre Trib position. I have received both hostile and encouraging response to my post. For the “offended,” I can’t help you. I regret your lack of willingness to consider this matter seriously. To the others whom I addressed, I heartily agree with the blog position regarding anti-Semitic origins of the Pre Trib (false) doctrine. I have an entire chapter in my book addressing this very point with the history to support.
No rapture at all seems to be a rather extreme viewpoint, and probably not the view of the authors of this blog. Or is it?
Not mine, if by “rapture” you mean the transfiguration of the saints. Nor do I subscribe to the “rapture” idea that Jesus is going to make a u-turn and take us all up to heaven. I believe once he comes, he stays and sets up his kingdom. But I’m sure a lot more might happen than we see now.
I have made a conscious effort not to be wordy. But, in order to clarify I quote from my book.
I do believe in the Second Coming of the Messiah.
I do not believe in two-and-one-half Comings or three Comings or a partial, bifurcated Second Coming. I do not believe there is any additional “catching away” prior to, and separate from, the Second Coming that necessitates special terminology, specifically the term “rapture” — a word that does not appear in Scripture. This includes any separate catching away of living believers en masse at any time in advance of the believers who will be raised at the first resurrection of the dead in Rev. 20:5 (“the dead shall rise first and then . . .”).
Some will say I am merely restating the “post-tribulation” position. I have gone beyond that. I reject even the use of the term “rapture” — a term invented as a theological convenience for those who consider themselves the “true believers.”
When Moses came down the mountain and found the golden calf, he didn’t just break it. He ground it to fine powder and dumped the dust into the water. (Exodus 32:20.) There is nothing unholy about gold. However, once it has been fashioned into an idol, an object of adoration and worship, the only remedy acceptable is to completely dismember and scatter it to the four winds.
It is the position of this writer that a single event occurring at the Second Coming of Messiah — one of many events to occur on that Day of the Lord — has become an object of worship. This fountain of false doctrine has diverted the focus of last-day believers from the return of the only One who matters, to obsessing about the personal departure of believers from the earth. The doctrine has replaced His admonition to be faithful even unto death (Rev. 2:10) with a false promise of “escaping all these things.”
A correct grasp of the Second Coming is central to understanding prophetic events — and central to understanding the mission of the generation that will be alive to see His glorious Return.
“Trinity” does not appear in the Bible. Oh, neither does “Bible.” The argument that rapture does not appear in the bible is pretty lame – and you have used it twice. You should know better,
In fact no english words at all appear in the scripture. However, I can show you harpazo in the original greek, a word that in at least one translation is translated as rapture. The meaning of harpazo is “to seize upon by force”, “to snatch up.”
The NET bible accurately renders 1 Thes 4:17 ” will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” and notes The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful, so the translation supplied the adverb “suddenly” to make this implicit notion clear.
Thus the premise that there is “no rapture” in the bible is false.
I would agree with you that you are not taking the traditional post-trib / pre-mill position. That’s fine, if you don’t like harpazo in your bible just mark it out. But I would not expect many to adopt your position.
I recently published my first book AN UPSIDE DOWN WORLD regarding the subject and how I changed my position from a pre-trib rapture to the Second Coming of Christ after the tribulation period. I felt I had to write it for there is much confusion among us regular christians seating on the pews. Some current outrageous teachings even on the pre-trib rapture even get to say that Israel will be exiled again with the Jews fleeing to hide in Petra which I could not find support for in the Bible. Anyone interested may obtain it through
www. booklocker.com, author: Sonia I. Lugo It is a POD, available for IPAD/IPOD, ebook, paperback and hardback and it can be found in the Spanish version : UN MUNDO AL REVÉS. It will serve serious Bible sutdents with the desire to study all the Word of God says about the tribulation period, the antichrist, the
abomination of desolation and how all these themes have been taken out of historical context. Thanks.
Sonia I. Lugo
I don’t know if my previous message got through. Sonia Lugo
The Parousia, or appearing of Jesus (per Zech 12-14) has also been aquainted with the English term Rapture in the NT> the reason for this association is because of what Paul noted would happen when He Appears, as to changes and resurrection of the body, the taking on of a changed body, and His coming to rule our planet for a promised season. Certainly we are not appointed for wrath, but, as the Revelation clearly indicates, may be martyred for our beliefs during the season of difficulty all must face on a future earth. Persecution from association with the Name has been normal to Christian experience throughout the time of the Gentiles Church foundations and its continued EKKlesia. Further, the mark John writes about, as part of his revelation of Jesus Christ to His People, points to a concentrated effort to murder those in the future who associate with faith in Him. As for the “tribulation” by means of an anti-Christ system in this world, certainly so, by God in Christ due to heavenly judgments, this is questionable.
Yes to the Day of the Lord being about His Return, No to a predifficulty catching away from persecution and difficulty. All who are on the earth will be tested in the final events of these last days, according to the Messiah speaking over past Jerusalem, and his future family of origin culture being there. When so tested it won’t be our amens to proclamations spoken in meetings which will sustain our faith, but abiding in Him no matter what the cost. With the earth’s resources in doubt (plague, famine), and conflict between nations (wars and rumors of wars), and hearts growning cold (via lusts of the flesh and murder becoming commonplace as it already is in many lands): who will stand??? He who washes his garments in the blood of the Lamb, and holds to the Word of a related testimony. He who moves on with what Peter called the character formations of those who add to their faith the characteristics Jesus lived and acted upon.
This is not the day of His People becoming more like the world system, but the Day of differentiation, devotion, and deliverance from its pursuits. He will Return, and it is written that the bride has made herself ready for that event.
Wondering if anyone has seen “Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes” which I happened to see on Google when I was looking up material covering pretribulation rapture history. Lord bless you all. Debbie
It is not a question of whether the church is in Israel’s corner during the Tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel determined upon “Daniel’s people” and Jerusalem, it is a question of whether God will be in Israel’s corner, and He is and will be. The 70th week of Daniel is not about the church. If the church was still operative in the world during the Tribulation, it would be about the church, but the Tribulation is determined, as Daniel 9:24 states, upon the people of Daniel and Jerusalem. All the arguments about “being in Israel’s corner all the way to the end” have nothing to do with what the Word actually states. The Jews and Israel are God’s people and God will be glorified in the eyes of the world when Israel attains its prophesied place among mankind following the Tribulation (Ezekiel 39). The church is the “bride of Christ.” Those saved in the Tribulation will be friends of the groom and have a place in God’s plan for redeemed people in eternity, but occupy a separate, not lesser, category from the church (saved Jews in the church age become part of the church). Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 are words that will be read during the Tribulation by redeemed people during the Tribulation. Much of what is in the Olivet Discourse are not about what the church will go through. Much of the church has already missed the Tribulation.
Another thought: the 70th week determined upon “thy people and thy holy city,” as understood by Daniel. Haman in the Book of Esther knew who the “thy people” were — Jews, saved (remnant) and unsaved. Daniel knew who “thy people” were — Jews, saved (remnant) and unsaved. Hitler knew who the “thy people” were — Jews — saved (remnant) and unsaved, and, as with Haman, tried to destroy them. Isaiah 66:8 is particularly interesting in light of the Holocaust and re-establishment of Israel in May 1948. Clearly fulfilled prophesy, at least clear to me.
Another thought: the saved Jews under Hitler were part of the church, not so in the first 69 weeks of Daniel and not so in the 70th week of Daniel. The church is inserted into the prophetic timeline as a mystery, around until the “fullness of the Gentiles” is complete. Although the Jews under Hitler were part of the church, the fact that they were genetically Jews was all that concerned Hitler as he was out to destroy all Jews. Again, that whole episode is fascinating in light of Isaiah 66:8.
[Here’s the start of a shocking web article! To see all of it, Google “Pretrib Rapture & Ed Hindson” which can be seen in full on Joe Ortiz’s “The End Times Passover” blog. You’ve been warned!]
What a wishy-washy ingrate Ed Hindson is!
He received most of his doctorates from (non-pretrib) schools like Westminster Theological Seminary.
But Falwell’s deep pockets at close-minded (pretrib) Liberty University bribed Hindson into becoming an alma mater backstabber as well as a slavish pretrib plagiarist.
I discovered years ago that “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (a book dated 1981 and edited by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson) had quietly and monstrously pirated huge portions of George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America”!