“We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” -1 Jn. 4.6
“….even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” -Gal. 1.8-9
There is a thread of the knowledge of God which runs through the Scriptures, and which we need desperately to cling to in these last days. It is the accumulated revelation of God, beginning in Genesis, running right through the Patriarchs, Judges, and Prophets of the Hebrew Bible.
It continues on in the New Testament record, finding it’s revelatory climax in Jesus Himself.
The foundational apostles, having a firm grasp on that thread, found themselves in a continuum with the knowledge of God set forth by their progenitors. What the prophet of old saw in part, the apostle viewed in fuller measure, but that fuller measure never ground against the revelation of God given before. Isaiah and Ezekiel’s visions were not trumped by Paul’s, but rather summed up in Christ. “I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.” The apostle’s teaching did not replace the revelation of God given in the Hebrew Bible (after all, Paul charged the Gentiles to read the prophets!), it brought type and shadow to manifested definition through the Gospel of Jesus.
In obedience to the Gospel call, the apostles poured out their lives to convey and deliver that precious knowledge of Christ to the Gentiles. On the shoulders of that great Hebraic history and sacrifice, the Church finds its foundation, and out of the sap which comes from Israel’s tree, we “live, move, and have our being.”
When the Gnostic heresy was affecting the community to which John wrote, he was gripped with concern and addressed the Church along these lines:
These men do not have a hold on the holy thread which has been given through Christ; namely, the intimate knowledge of the God of Israel, which was delivered to us by the full-orbed demonstration of His wisdom on the Cross. They deny His flesh-and-blood witness, and thereby prove that they are false. They didn’t come from the apostolic fellowship, they have a hold on some faulty version of faith, and are operating in a spirit of error.
When the Judaizers were infiltrating the congregations in Galatia, Paul was equally concerned, though the impostors were of a different order than the Gnostics. In essence, he charged the Church thusly:
The Gospel that we delivered to you was not the concoction of men. It was given to me by way of holy revelation, through a vital encounter with the God of Israel. Before my confrontation with the Messiah on the road to Damascus, I thought I had a hold on the thread of the Lord’s doctrine, but I was on a windy path of religiosity that had impressive forms, but no viable union with Him in truth. The Messiah Jesus appeared to me, transformed my heart and view, and introduced me to the true thread of the knowledge of my father Abraham’s God. Now, why would you make room in your hearts for those who would proclaim a so-called Gospel that is totally out of touch with the foundational word that you received from me? It may have manners of formality and superstructures that seem spiritual, but its foundations are faulty. They have not been laid by foundational servants who are in that holy continuum, but by men with agendas. Flee from these “different gospels”!
We look upon the congregations in Galatia and wonder how they fell prey to the Judaizers. We look upon the ones to whom John wrote, baffled that any of them would even consider the strange ideas and ruminations of Gnosticism. But it behooves us in these days, with a shortage of foundational servants in the Church, to raise very serious and applicable questions.
Do we have a firm grasp on the “thread” of the knowledge of God, as He has set Himself forth in the Scriptures?
Are “different Gospels”, that the apostles of old would hardly recognize, taking center stage in our congregations?
Do we find ourselves in a continuum with the prophets and apostles of the Scriptures, or is our “revelation” of Jesus and the Gospel a caricature of the true and foundational revelation once and for all given?
Certainly, we all “see in part” and “prophesy in part”, but my own heart is alarmed these days, as I’m hearing “different gospels” promulgated, even in evangelical and charismatic congregations. “Gospels” that seem to have a hold on some other thread of knowledge- one that grinds against the revelation of God given through the Scriptures.
I’m hearing statements like this:
“There’s no need to preach repentance in the church. I refuse to preach repentance to people who are already repenting.”
“God is not the author of any suffering or any natural disasters. In fact, because all of His judgment was fulfilled at the cross, He does not act in that way any more. That was Old Testament.”
“The Gospels were actually written to support Paul’s epistles.”
“Maybe you’ve been spending too much time in Jeremiah. Maybe you’ve even spent too much time in the Gospels. Jesus was not a grace preacher. He was a preacher of the Law. You need to get out of the red letters for a while and get into Paul.”
The man who made the latter statement declared, “I may be a little too Pauline for you all…”, to which I responded, “Actually, he is not being Pauline at all!”
Dear saints, I am not into “watchdog ministry” or looking under every rock and behind every bush for the slightest spasm of doctrinal error. I am not one to find pleasure in naming names or exposing faults in others to my own elevation. But my heart is breaking over the kinds of things I’m hearing these days, and I’m told by itinerant preacher friends that they are running into this all over the nation.
….there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master [and His Lordship] who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. -2 Pet. 2.1
This applied to Peter’s day, and it will apply in an increasing measure in the days leading up to the Lord’s return. The Lord has never been fond of mixtures, and we are seeing a staggering kind of mixture in our day. It is likely an old mixture, but it is being repackaged and is spreading in an unprecedented manner. It’s a profession of Jesus as Savior, but a denial of Jesus as Lord. A profession of Jesus as “good”, but a denial of Jesus as “the Judge of all the earth.” A profession of Jesus as compassionate, but a denial of Jesus as the One who calls “all men to repent.”
Dear saints, it is not either/or. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” “Behold then the kindness and severity of God…” If we are unwilling to grow in the knowledge of God as He has set Himself forth in the Scriptures, we can be sure that we do not have a hold on the right “thread”.
More than ever, we have come to a time when an “utterness” toward the Lord is the matter of life and death for the Church and for Israel. We’ve got to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints,” lest we find ourselves swimming in the polluted waters of “different gospels,” which will have great appeal to men, while leading them away from the reality of of Christ, though their movements will likely bear the name “Jesus.”
The visions of your prophets were false and worthless; they did not expose your sin to ward off your captivity. The oracles they gave you were false and misleading. -Lam. 2.14
We need to be cognizant of the fact that as the final pages of history are turned, there will be demonstrations of power that are from the Lord, and demonstrations of power that are from below. The safeguard against falling prey to “different gospels” is to be found in the secret place with the Lord, to immerse ourselves in the Scriptures, and to walk in humility one with another in a continued pursuit of the true knowledge of God.
The world is evil, the times are waxing late, and the glory of God has departed from the church as the fiery cloud once lifted from the door of the Temple in the sight of Ezekiel the prophet.
The God of Abraham has withdrawn His conscious Presence from us, and another God whom our fathers knew not is making himself at home among us. This God we have made and because we have made him we can understand him; because we have created him he can never surprise us, never overwhelm us, nor astonish us, nor transcend us.
….The God of our fathers wills to be the God of their succeeding race. We have only to prepare Him a habitation in love and faith and humility.
–A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, Ch. 8, God’s Infinitude
I do not want to leave you with a note of hopelessness, for He has made Himself overwhelmingly available to us. No person has more copiously poured our their affection or condescended so far to reach you. If we seek Him with all our heart, we “shall find Him,” and when we get a hold of the “thread” there is no greater place of holy delight, “joy unspeakable and full of glory.” All the more grievously does it strike me, that many would wallow in habitual sin and a “different gospel”, when the glories of the Man Christ Jesus have been made available to all who would come.
We must dig deeply into the Scriptures. We must be found in the place of prayer. We have a privileged calling to make a demonstration of His wisdom to the “principalities and powers of the air,” to “move Israel to jealousy,” to take the Gospel of glory to the “uttermost parts of the earth,” and ultimately, to “hasten” the day of our glorious Lord’s return.
Dear saints, I say again, there is nothing more crucial than coming into a knowledge of God as He is, and not as we ourselves have conceived Him to be.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols. -1 Jn. 5.21
Possibly Related Posts:
“Gnosticism” is what I call the New Age ditch, the “Judaisers” the Pharisee ditch, on either side of the Straight and Narrow Highway. So, the controversy still exists.
But Paul may have had a slightly “different gospel” than the Jerusalem Church from which he apparently left, though still supported, as is seen in Galatians and Acts. James, perhaps, may be the official reply from the First Church. This is a maybe, not intended to become an argument.
What I would like to discuss in lieu of the above is “the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles” prophesized by both Jesus and Paul. IF the rebirth of Israel reperesents this change of time (or dispensation) THEN we are entering the fulfillment of what I call ZION as seen in the latter half of Ezekiel 37 (the “dry bones” chapter), where the SONS (Hebrew ben) of Judah reconnect with the DAUGHTERS (beth) of Israel: the Remnant Church Bride.
As is also seen in Revelation, Paul’s understanding is not the final Word. I know this is controversial.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
Yes! HOW can people believe in OSAS, when the Scriptures are clearly 100% in alignment against such a hazardous belief? How can people believe that just because they are “predestined”, they are DEFINITELY going to take part in it?
Actually, it is confusing to me, since our predestination is likened to Jacob’s predestination — his DEFINITELY came to pass: mercy (unto the glory of God); so did Pharaoh’s predestined end: wrath (unto the glory of God).
Yet, the believers who are predestined are WARNED to not stop believing, in Romans 11 — or else face being severed.
2 Cor 13:5 says if you find you’re not in the faith, Christ is no longer in you.
Galatians 5 said this is what befell the Galatians — and Galatians 4 says Christ was no longer in them.
They were predestined, but they didn’t stay in their predestined paths ???
The Church in Sardis: all who soil their garments (keep yourselves unspotted from the world {all that is in the world is not from the Father; whoever loves the world does not have the love of the Father in them} would be blotted out of the Book of Life — the Book of Life that they had been in from before the foundations of the earth (Revelation).
Confusing.
No man resists God’s will, yet God still finds fault: how can it be? I am at a loss for understanding.
Does that mean vessels intended for mercy can become vessels of wrath — and vessels of wrath can become vessels of mercy?! How can people stop God’s will?
Election is NOT according to works — therefore, to say “God only hardens peoples’ hearts who’ve already hardened their own hearts” (this is a work) cannot be true. Election is not according to works.
Hardening one’s heart is a “work” — the works Jesus was judging in Revelation 2 + 3 were all secret works of the heart; therefore, the statement “God hardens whom He wills, and mercies whom He wills” stands.
Ron,
James MAY have been correcting the faulty understanding those readers had, which satan had been taking advantage of — as 2 Peter 3:16 says: many of the things Paul writes are “DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND, and men twist them around unto their own destruction.”
These men might have been among those who twisted the Scripture to their own destruction; however, men are released from the Law at death (even youtube search a video from jews4judaism, a rabbi dr schochet preaches the same thing to Jews); we are released NOT to break it, but to be joined to another Law — the Law that comes directly from “the only Lawgiver” (i.e.:Jesus, the “Ingraft Word”). We are free NOT to break it, but to obey the Laws that come directly from the Spirit of Christ — “in newness of Spirit; not in oldness of letter” : the new is “not like” the old covenant, remember? These laws we obey to serve God through Christ are to be written on our minds and hearts, not on a page.
I had to come to the conclusion concerning predestination that God knows (as He is outside of time) but we don’t (being confined for now); so, any assumption about our “election” is a judgment, upon which we can’t even rightly judge our own heart! So our righteous action is to fall upon the Mercy Seat and plead the blood of Jesus.
I can’t seem to get to any Messianic statements of faith without discussing the Law first (sigh). But it is easier to do after two decades.
Paul talks about the curses of the Law, but not the blessings; then he curses Galatians who attempt to perfect themselves (santification?) by the Law; then he sets up a hierarchy of bishops and deacons when there is no order in some of the early Gentile Churches, and writes lists very similar to the Law. But Paul was not made “inerrant” until 325 AD by Constantine and the Council of Nicea; so this doctrine was not his doing. In fact, in Thessalonians, he states that he firmly expects to be alive when Jesus returns; so the @1900 years of doctrine coming after was not what he expected; and I sincerely doubt he would have wanted to be placed on the same pedestal as Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus interpreted the Law differently than what the religious priesthood expected, but He never strayed from the Commandments as written in the OT. But some “statutes” and other Hebrew words translated as Law carry less weight, as even Ezekiel declared by the Word of the LORD. And the Greek-to-English translations of “law” can be somewhat confusing also. Circumcision was originally part of GOD’s covenant with Abraham, but then became law. David’s grandmother was a Moabite: technically, he shouldn’t have been allowed in the congregation of Israel, much less become king. I could go on and on.
So we see “inerrancy” becomes manmade tradition in itself. The Bible is not “perfect” by mathematical standards (certain counts vary in a few verses), yet GOD’s perfection always shines through. Every snowflake, every tree, every individual person is unique. And Wisdom is different than knowledge; in a sense, we have been barking up the wrong Tree.
I would say that the most important thing now is to keep this discussion going openly and as freely as possible. Rivers must flow to remain fresh; it is man, not GOD, who dams the rivers.
In Him, Ron M.
Adam wasn’t born with a list; when he went to the “list”, he died.
The New Covenant is a restoration to the original order — God speaking directly to man, and placing His Law/Desire INSIDE man’s mind and heart. There is 0% confusion on this.
“Paul didn’t speak of the rewards of the Law”. We are NOT to seek the rewards it lists in the Law (as they are EARTHLY); but a. if you are seated with Christ, then also seek those things which are above, and b.rewards which will be rewarded us at the return of Christ (2 John). There is a HUGE difference. When the Ingraft Word, the Lawgiver, gives Laws, they give LIFE (the Law of Life in the Spirit); the Law of Moses, however, had the Ministry of condemnation, that put the sheep in folds (prison cells). This is why only those who confess their unrighteousness are Jesus’s Sheep. This was Nathaniel’s righteousness (he had partaken in John’s Baptism, confessing his sins, and was not deceived inside himself, having a false, hypocritical self-righteousness). The Samaritan woman told Jesus she sinned, and Jesus said she knew the Truth.
Apostle Paul said he delivered the Lord’s Commandments (1 Co 14:37) — so, I would say that it is probably important to respect his writings: they are the Lord’s own Commandments, by and large (he did say, at one time, “this, I say — not the Lord” — but this was the exception; not the rule).
There is no confusion over this, at all; and there is no distinction between John’s Gospel and Paul’s. As a matter of fact, I began compiling similar doctrines of Apostle Paul’s to compare to the other apostles’, and “the Law” issue would be THE ONLY difference (since you say it is different) between their doctrines.
Here are a few:
New Covenant “Not Like” Old Covenant; Better
Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:2-9, Rom 7:6
New Covenant/Law of Liberty/Ingrafted Word vs. Law
James 1:17-25; 2:12; 2:9-13, Deut 1:17, Romans 8:12
Heb 10:16 + Jer 31:31-34 + James 4:11 + Rom 2:14 (The Law is put within you by virtue of receiving the “ingrafted Word”: that is, the Spirit of Jesus — who is the Word — and now, YOU ARE THE LAW; you can do the things contained in the Law without having the Law if you are in touch with Jesus Christ, which is the whole point of God making us in the first place! Adam had no law; only an intimate communion.)
Salvation By Faith
John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8
We Enter Others’ Labors (even though these two examples are on two different levels)
John 3:36-38, 1 Cor 3:6, 1 Cor 14:36
Prayer Without Ceasing
“He taught a parable that men ought always pray and not faint” Luke
“…pray at all times in the Spirit…” Eph 6
“In Christ”
John 14:6, Romans 8:1
New Birth
John 3:6, 2 Cor 5:17
Adoption As Sons
John 20:17, Romans 8:23
Church’s Marriage To Jesus
John 3:29 / 2 Cor 11:2
Love Is Greatest Command/Of Utmost Importance
1 Cor 13:1-3 /John 13:34 / James 2:8
The Law Spoke of Christ In Types and Shadows
Col 1:16, 17 / Gal 3:24 / John 5:46
The Law Came To Condemn; Not To Make Righteous
Romans 3:19 / John 5:45
Striving To Reach Resurrection
Philippians 3:11 / 1 Th 4:16 / John 5:29
Salvation By Faith Not A One-Time Deal, But A Constant Need
Romans 11:19-22 / Philippians 3:11 / Heb 10:37-39 / John 8:30, 31 (Here, Jesus spoke to the Jews who believed already, and were saved, but needed to CONTINUE in His Word.) / Rev 1:9 (talks about the PERSEVERANCE of the saints, not only faith)
Sin No More
Rom 6:1, 2 / Heb 10:26 / John 5:14
Looking To Christ
Heb 12:2 / John 3:14
God is Jesus’s God
Eph 1:3 / John 20:17
God is Jesus’s Father
Heb 10:29 / John 20:17
Righteous Requirement Of The Law Fulfilled In Christ
Rom 8:4 / Micah 6:6 / Matthew 23:23
God Shines Light and Sends Rain On Righteous & Unrighteous
Acts 14:17 / Matthew 5:45
God’s Kindness
Titus 3:4 / John 3:16 / 1 John 3:1
Gathering Fruit For Eternal Life
Philippians 4:17 / John 4:36
Time Is Short
1 Cor 7:29 / John 4:23, 5:25, etc.,
Holy Spirit To Be Given And Known
2 Cor 13:14 / John 14:15-21
Faith IS the Work of God
Heb 4:9-11 / John 6:29
Christ As Strength
John 15 “Apart from Me, you can do nothing” — meaning, the opposite is true:
Php 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me.”
We See God When We Look At Jesus’s Face
John 14:6 “…he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, ‘Show us the Father’?”
1 Cor 13:12 “… for now, we see in a mirror, darkly; but, then, face-to-face…”
2 Cor 3:18 “…but we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord.”
New Covenant Proof
Romans 2:13-15 / Jer 31:31-34 / John 4:10 (the Word, Jesus, is a Gift)
Obeying Through the Spirit Vs. Letter of Law
Ephesians 4:20, 21 / John 10:3-5
3 Witnesses Certifying Paul’s Apostleship and Works in Christ Jesus
1. Polycarp, in Polycarp 3:2, called Paul “blessed” and “glorious” (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-lightfoot.html)
2. James 1 corrected the misunderstandings of the readers of Paul’s writings, pointing them to the “completion” of faith in the working of it out; however, Paul never said you could believe and not have works (Eph 2:10, Heb 13:21, Col 1:10), he continued and completed his point when he made mention of how “by faith they shut the mouths of lions, put armies to flight”, etc., etc., etc., by faith they DID many things. Daniel 11 says “…those who know their God will be great and do great exploits.”
3. Peter, in 2 Peter, makes mention of the wisdom given by God to Paul, but that it is easy to misunderstand.
Annulling 2 Peter?
In order for people to discredit Paul’s writings, they also try to discredit 2 Peter in which Saul is spoken well of and validated.
“Let every fact be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.” If there is only one complaint about the text — that Paul says not to obey the Law (which is not even a valid complaint) — you can’t just say he is speaking false things.
God’s “Fold”: Conviction/Guilt
Galatians 3 — Law (knowledge of Right & Wrong) “Imprisons” (prisoners are put in “holding cells”) men in guilt/condemnation (Gal 3)
John 10 — “sheepfold”: a “fold” is a sort of prison cell; those who refused the drawing of the Father (refused to hear the Truth Jesus spoke) — that they were sinners (John 8:31-52 is showing a people who refused to be humble “in their own sight”, as righteous King David had been; and, unlike the Samaritan woman, of John 4) — refused to enter the sheepfold (prison cell) of God.
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1 John 1:8 says, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” John 5:38+42 inexorably link the Word/Truth of God being in us to the Love of the Father being in us.
1 J 2:15 gives the warning about why the Love of the Father might not be in us — because of loving this present, dark, world system. The Pharisees, according to John 12:43 (and, 8:54, properly understood — that Jesus didn’t glorify Himself — the opposite of what the Pharisees were doing), “loved the present world”, in that they “loved the praise of men, rather than God” [boastful pride of life]; if they really kept God’s Commandments, they would’ve been containers of the Father’s love (John 14:21).
i.e.: the Pharisees preferred to not receive the love of the Truth (John 14:24), rebelling against It, and the Judge Who spoke It (12:48); therefore, the Word/Truth was not in them (1J 2:15) — therefore, they loved the world (“boasting pride of life” 1 J 2:16 — i.e.: they loved the praise from men [John 12:43]; whereas the reception of the Truth would’ve intercepted their goal of self-exaltation, and caused them to walk within the confines of [green pastures] the Commandments of God [i.e.: to love people, as God had demonstrated His Love towards them — John 8:51;13:34;15:12;15:17]; this principle is seen in action in the parable of the Unforgiving Servant [Matthew 18:22-35]and in Peter’s statement that “obeying the Truth” will result in “sincere love of the brethren” 1 P 1:22).
-Paul, also, says that the END/GOAL of their charge/commandment is “sincere love” 1 Ti 1:5.
-Paul says that love is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) — and, since the “Word is Spirit” (John 6:63), that means that reception of the Word of the Spirit is the Gate (Matt 7:13, John 10:2) & Door a man must walk through in order to “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:16+5:25), and “enter into… Grace”, wherein they may “stand” (Rom 5:2). This is another common doctrine.
There are many parallels between Paul’s doctrines and the doctrines of the other Apostles and writers of the NT Epistles — how could there be a minister who taught SO MANY similar doctrines [as all the other Apostles] and yet have a humongous, central, foundational doctrine that was “off”-center or presenting a “new” Christianity?
He wouldn’t have been endorsed by the three witnesses listed.
To think that makes no sense.
Luke 21:24. The Temple Mount is occupied by pagan buildings, dedicated to Muhammed’s submission doctrine. Certainly the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ has not been completed. Further, Peter, in Acts 3:21 links the end of this period to completion of all written in the ‘Prophets of Old’, as does the Lord in quoting Daniel and Zech. in his own Mt. of Olives allusions.
So the question becomes, does the “fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles” come before or after the Millennium?
Truth is stranger than fiction. If I said two decades ago that Standard and Poor’s would rule the nations or that bloody Islam would be the most popular religion on earth, I would have been laughed off the stage. Paul was given no vision of these times beyond the antichrist; but John was.
The Father and Son never said, “Now Paul will teach you perfection.” Never. Instead, Jesus saId, “I AM THE WAY, TRUTH, AND LIFE: NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER, EXCEPT BY ME.” Neither Moses nor Paul can lead us to the Father; but Orthodoxy insists on following man instead of GOD. Zechariah declares that these two parts will die. Only Jesus can lead us safely through the fire and flood. To say that Paul didn’t have disagreements with the Jerusalem Church is ridiculous; you can find many examples in Acts alone.
Paul was absolutely necessary in separating the infant Gentile Church from the overbearing Jewish structure. The other apostles agreed on this. But I strongly disagree that Paul’s view is the final dispensation. That’s why you won’t find much preaching on Revelation or the OT in today’s Church; but the comfortable positions of denominational leadership can’t endure these end times much longer.
In Him, Ron M.
1. Paul gave the commandments of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 14:37).
2. The Jewish zealots in Jerusalem were zealous (for the Law), but it wasn’t good, since it wasn’t “according to knowledge” (ofcourse, this wasn’t directly about them, but it certainly applies); Paul was brought in to make sure these ignorant people would not shipwreck the entire church with their ignorant assertions, desiring to be teachers of the Law, understanding neither what they say nor whereof they confidently assert”, as they did to the Galatians. Paul’s position was that of a teacher, and he put those ignorant Jewish believers in their places, both in Romans 1+2, and in Galatians 5. They were responsible for the destruction of God’s work; not the furtherance — is it such a bad thing to disagree with “the Jerusalem Church”, if they had faulted doctrine?
3. When you say “overbearing”, you seem as if you are congratulatory of it; the fact is that those Jews were working wrath for themselves (Romans 2), and the Gentiles were walking in a perfectly acceptable manner — the newness of the Spirit, in accordance with the prophecy; and serving God by obeying the Commands that come from the Spirit; not a page.
Those Jewish believers that compelled others to obey the Law did so in absolute disobedience to the Gospel, and didn’t understand the New Covenant, and so Paul was installed, and “set for the defense of the faith”.
No, I’m not congratulating the Judaisers; and I agree with you completely on the Law being written on our heart instead of stone, which btw is in many OT verses also.
Let’s say Rick Warren (for example, only because he was mentioned in a blog recently, without any insinuations on my part whatsoever) publicly said that he hoped Michael Brown’s penis is cut off because he is Messianic; wouldn’t that cause quite a stir? Now don’t get Victorian on me; women and children were part of the Church when Paul wrote Galatians.
The article is about “another gospel”: but the gospel is about Jesus, not Paul. Jesus is the Head, of the Church, which includes Paul, we are all part of. All of Paul’s epistles together can’t trump Matthew 5:17-20.
In Him, Ron M.
@ Dan1el,
So we are not to obey commandments from a page, but Paul gave commandments in pen and ink that were from YHWH. Are we to obey Paul, since he gave us YHWH’s commandments or disobey because they are on a page? Are we to disobey Moses because he wrote it down or obey Him because he got them directly from YHWH? Why even quote passages of scripture that come from a page if they are not to be obeyed?
Adam did not fall by going to a list. He fell because he disobeyed YHWH’s commandment. It does not matter if it is written or not…it is still sin when we know YHWH’s commandments and do not obey.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
You are basically saying that the law is sin, by saying we are wrong to obey what is written.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The law being good, it would be the opposite of what you say. It would be sin to not do it. You are saying that it sin to do it.
James 4
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Is it spiritual to reject the law? Or is it carnal, as Paul says. Or do we ignore Paul because he wrote it on a page?
Shalom
1. Of course, it is in the OT; if it weren’t, it would be invalidated.
2. What does Warren have to do with this? I think your example is off-kilter.
3. “Another Gospel”: there are MANY “other Gospels”, sadly. One was a false Gospel the Galatians were being bewitched by, another was the Gnostic Gospel; and, there are other false Gospels being presented, today. Now, as far as Law vs. Grace: you’re getting into a topic that has been dealt with extensively, already, on the forums on his radio site — http://www.lineoffireradio.com
Jesus came to fulfill the Law — true: Paul said that through the Law, he died to the Law. Those Jews who did not find righteousness through the Law didn’t find it, because they didn’t follow it through to its logical end: Christ. They were self-righteous, and not condemned by Moses (they didn’t believe His writings, according to Jesus, in John).
Have you ever seen those bumper stickers that say, “if you can read this, you’re too close to my car” ? The knowledge of good and evil (Law) is like that — “if you can read this, you’re in trouble” — knowledge, itself, demands it be left alone; this is not only true in the Jewish world or religion, but even Buddhists understand through knowledge that they ought not be dwelling in that space where knowledge is to be gained; so, they escape into their human spirits, and “dwelling in the present moment”, apart from knowledge, knowing nothing. Similarly, knowing the Law spells destruction; and, there is a little note that reads, “If you can read this, YOU ARE IN TROUBLE ————-> RUN THAT WAY, TO YESHUA; HE WILL SAVE YOU!” The Law demanded its own end; therefore, Paul said, “through the Law I died to the Law”, in order that he might come to know “the love of God in Christ, which is beyond all knowledge” (Ephesians).
Bo,
We disagree.
As Dr. Michael Brown has pointed out, you’ve been corrected hundreds of times, but you refuse to receive it; God forgives you, and loves you, and so do I — but, I’m not getting drawn into another long, unfruitful discussion. The end of time is near; I wish you the best.
Dan1el,
I may have been rebuked, but my stance has not been proven incorrect. There is a difference,
And you have been corrected by many scriptures many times for the absurd statement that we are not to go by the words on the pages of scripture. Your statement is outrageously absurd. What is the point of having the scripture if we are not going to go by it? What is the point in YHWH giving it to us? What, for sure, is the point of you quoting it as if it has authority if you do not go by it. Is that not hypocrisy?
Why would Paul write this if it was wrong to read and practice the scripture?
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Why would James write this?
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
And Paul this?
Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
And John this?
2 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
And this?
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
It is disobedience to the revealed word of YHWH that is sin. Your position makes it sin to keep YHWH’s revealed word. Paul must not have gotten the same special message that you have from the spirit.
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How can any person read the above passage and conclude that we are not to get our doctrine, instruction in living right, and knowledge of what good works we are to do from the scripture? You do not have to discuss this with me, but it would be good if you gave heed to the warning that your stance is in opposition to the apostles and prophets…to YHWH Himself.
Exodus 19
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Forever is a long time.
Luke 16
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Are you persuaded yet?
Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
It is the false prophets that tell us to live without the rules of scripture. It causes our love to grow cold because real love produces commandment keepers. These are the ones that endure till the end. They place their faith in Y’shua and keep YHWH’s commandments.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the endurance of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Rejecting the knowledge of scripture does not end well.
Please reconsider your doctrine and your ways.
Shalom
The LOGICAL CONCLUSION of “if you keep one part of the law, you are bound to it all” expounded in Galatians is complete lawlessness and utter chaos. The quote is from Deuteronomy 27:26: now DELIBERATELY NOT keep any of the commandments from the Covenant at Moab so as not to be bound by Law, and see where you’re at. Paul is inconsistent: he specifically states that if you are circumcised, you are bound by Law; then he later has Timothy circumcised. Paul is man; his theology is flawed. He has many magnificent things to say by the Spirit as a chosen vessel; but not always. You can’t replace the WORD OF GOD with a hierarchy of supposed holy administrators. ONLY JESUS IS PERFECT: FOLLOW JESUS.
Should I submit to a Senior Pastor because you say so? Maybe this is a test to see if I will submit to man instead of GOD, because false brethren have secretly been brought in to spy out my liberty in Christ Jesus, so they can bring me into bondage; in whom I will not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue. Those who seem to be something- it makes no difference to me, because GOD plays personal favorites with no one- they add nothing to me.
WHO THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED. To which I add, NO KING BUT JESUS! So be gone with the one-fold (pastor only) Papal hierarchy that has nothing to do with the One Fold of the Great Shepherd of the sheep!
1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:5,6. I abhor twisted religion that disguises itself as the Word and Spirit of GOD. Rev. 2:6,15.
I am trying to show you the hopelessness of Paul’s position: BECAUSE the Spirit teaches us all things, as he says, you have NO RIGHT to try and bring me under submission to your rule: I am not sub-human. The old wineskin clergy-laity model will vanish like smoke, and the new wineskin Remnant Bride will emerge to war against the New World Order and the whore of Babel.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
You wrote:
Now I see where you get your philosophy. Buddhism! You have mixed a false religion with Messiah. Your statement above is completely against the Knowledge of YHHW. Knowing the law does not spell destruction…rejecting it does. I need not quote the scriptures that say this as you do not go by scripture, but I have to quote just one.
Psalm 94
11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Shalom
Ron,
It would be a tragedy if you were brought under any man’s power (who was not following after Christ). The Lord’s ways are unsearchable; we don’t know the precise reason Paul had Timothy circumcised — it could’ve been because “to those under the Law, I became as if under the Law (though, I, myself not being under the Law)” [para.]
To be honest — I didn’t need the Bible to tell me what to do; I found myself doing the things the Bible tells people to do, without needing it to tell me to do it. Only submitting to Jesus is going to end well. Paul never said to submit to American Christianity — obey Christ. It says that we should know NO man after the flesh — i.e.: RELATE TO HUMANS (all) AS THROUGH CHRIST; Paul rebukes men who don’ “hold fast to the Authority”, Christ. The whole of Christianity is 100% unfeasible, otherwise.
We don’t necessarily need the Bible to tell us what to do, since we have the same Spirit that authored it — IF we are obedient to the Spirit; IF NOT, you’re going down the wrong path, anyways.
The Old wineskin has nothing to do with clergy, dude, so stop taking stuff out of context. I understand your frustration: FOLLOW JESUS; He will set you free FROM SIN.
Bo,
I’ve already experienced the New Covenant reality; I can’t be swayed to believe anything other than my experience in the New Covenant — the Scripture’s Testimony only validates it. I don’t understand how people can suffocate themselves with Scriptures, in place of knowing Jesus, the Word, and obeying Jesus, the Words from God’s Mouth. Obeying Jesus is obeying God’s Words — we are to have contact with Him.
Hope the best for you
Bo,
There is the Word that comes directly from God — it is full of LIFE, and LIGHT — like the ones God told Adam; those are the ones we are to follow.
There is the Law of Moses that tells you what good to do, and what bad not to do — those words are standards, and “knowing” them can show a man that he is not good; but “knowing” Jesus, the Word, is absolutely different: “of His fullness we all receive; grace upon grace”.
As Paul says, “when we were without strength”; but now, we are “strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might”.
Dan1el,
I’m sorry, but if your “new covenant” is not in line with what the apostles and prophets wrote on pages, then you are deceived. You are not accepting the things that I quote that they wrote, therefore you are in error. Buddhist error at that. To view scripture as “suffocating” is telling. YHWH’s Torah is the perfect law of liberty according to James.
Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Shalom
Bo,
What I meant by “knowing the Law spells destruction” is simply understood: “if you stick your hands out of the car window when you’re going down the street, don’t be surprised if your hand gets cut off, somehow: keep your hands inside the car, where it is safe.” Adam & Eve went to the knowledge of good and evil, and died.
The Law is the knowledge of good and evil (“for through the Law is the knowledge of sin”); the weakness of man’s flesh is exacerbated by the presence of the holy Law — therefore, “the Law is the power of sin”, not because the Law is sinful, but because of the men to whom it applies. As Galatians 3 stated, the Law was just an “insert” into the Covenant which had been before-hand agreed upon with Abraham, and could do nothing to change it’s aim. Therefore, the Law’s effect is to make men see their own sinfulness, humble them, and “hold” them until Messiah would come — but, now that The Faith [that the Abrahamic Covenant was all about] has arrived, the “insert” [which was only there to DRIVE men to Christ] is no longer needed. This is clear, theologically-speaking.
The Law of God to which the sinful flesh refuses to submit is “the Law of Faith”. Without FAITH, it is impossible to please God: “…the life I live while in this flesh, I live by FAITH that is IN THE SON OF GOD [aka the Word of God]”: Paul KNEW JESUS, and OBEYED JESUS THROUGH PUTTING FAITH/TRUST IN HIM. In this New Covenant, we are to have contact with God [as Abraham, the Father of those who hear directly from God, and put their faith in God — those who are led by the Spirit], and trust Him, our Maker.
New wineskins are made every year for new wine; Jesus knew this when He gave the example.
We are not far from agreement when we speak of the LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL; but the Spirit CANNOT contradict the Father Who gave the Law, because the Spirit comes FROM the Father! Law written on our heart is the same Law as that written on stone; but the temple of abiding is different.
Moses had the same Spirit of God that Paul had. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration many years before Paul had his transformation. Was his vision meant to dismiss the ministry of the eleven apostles who walked with Jesus on earth for three or more years?
I have submitted in the past to two denominations who preach primarily Paul. How do you distinguish Truth from error without the Bible? Is your understanding the final answer?
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
Freedom from the limitations, darkness, bondage, sadness, shame of erring/sinning; from the evil body which it inhabits, I fly, and rise up, above it…
Ron,
The “Law” you need is given to you by the Spirit. The Spirit, within, informs the mind; you know all you need to know, without learning a speck more of information. Go in the RIGHT DIRECTION. The Roman Christians didn’t need to learn anything; they submitted to the direct speaking of the Spirit: their own thoughts would either convict of dismiss them, in the Day of Judgment; and, it is the same for you. In your thoughts and in your heart are God’s Laws for you; if we are “loose” in our thinking, trying to “brace” your mind with a Book will not stabilize that — only a secret/personal revelation & decision will. I wish there was a clearer way to communicate this… but…
Bo,
The perfect Law of Liberty is the Spirit — as Paul said, “the Law of the Spirit of Life”; “it is God who is at work in you to will and do for His good pleasure” : see? The willingness to do is being worked by God; therefore, I am “set at liberty to do as I will”, because GOD IS MAKING ME WILL HOLY THINGS THAT ARE PLEASING TO HIM.
Dan1el,
You are sadly mistaken. The law of YHWH is not the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is the path to the tree of life. Those that keep it have the right to the tree of life. The flaming sword that keeps “the way of the tree of life” does not keep us away from the tree of life, it guides us to it. It is our carnal minds that will not subject themselves to YHWH’s perfect law that are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is us deciding what is right and wrong. It is us judging for ourselves instead of submitting to YHWH’s revelation. That is what Adam and Eve did.
Not that we can somehow keep the law perfectly and get there, but that the true Spirit of YHWH empowers us to keep the law. The sacrifice of Y’shua eliminates our past failures so that we have a new start. And of course we can have a new start every time we confess our transgressions of the law (sin). If we do not confess transgression of the law as sin, we are not cleansed from unrighteousness…and we fall off of the path to the tree of life. We are unrighteous if we transgress the law. We are deceived if we think that we are righteous though we transgress the law. If we continue to transgress the law we do not know Him. What spirit would tell us otherwise? The devil’s.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Abraham kept YHWH’s law/Torah. His faith produced works. The law tells us what works are to be done. A faith that rejects the statutes contained in YHWH’s law is a misplaced faith. The real Y’shua kept YHWH’s law and taught all men to do the same. He does not change. He still teaches us by the real Spirit of YHWH to keep the Torah. I know you do not accept Matthew as scripture, but read em and weep.
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Y’shua is still the greatest in the kingdom. He still keeps the commandments and teaches us to keep them. Just like He taught Abraham.
You have twisted the scripture to prove your Buddhist philosophy. You need to renounce it and be free to serve YHWH in spirit and in truth. What truth? His Truth…His word.
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
We are not sanctified unless we are submitting to YHWH”S revealed truth…the Scripture. That is the way Y’shua was sanctified. That is how the apostles were sanctified. That is how we that believe the apostles word are sanctified.
Shalom
Dan1el,
If you just read what James says, you will not twist his words to mean what you want them to mean. The perfect law of liberty is the written word of YHWH. The context is plain.
Shalom
Bryan, where are you? You started this. I’m just ecstatic to finally be able to talk about this, without submitting entirely to some son of a hotshot preacher half my age, though I’m old enough to be an elder (by the law). What is your interpretation of this “different gospel”?
To me, VOR is an opportunity to discuss strategies of a new Messianic movement. Multiple millions have been silenced for two millennium. But I am not a lone ranger; some order must be sorted out; just by prayer and council, as Jabez endorses; not dictatorship.
In Him, Ron M.
Bo,
Nope; the Lawgiver is the Ingraft Word [Christ]; we must receive His Laws, in humility. The Laws of God are written in the inward man (Jer 31), as that is where God desires Truth, in man.
Dan & Bo,
okay, you both go to your corners for a breather, and listen, and then you can continue with round whatever.
The “lightness” of wanting to soar in the Spirit without gravity is a pleasant thought, but proves extremely dangerous in the end. “The weight of His glory” (cHBD, I think) is more pressing than I could have imagined; remember Paul said, “I die daily.”
On the other side of the ditch, there has been a gestapo-type move to quench the Spirit, particularly in the freedom of Praise and Worship, altogether. This is as equally dangerous to the Body of Christ. This is your flight instructor speaking. Now continue your zeal in the Spirit, but please have respect for each other. We are on the same side, fighting a ferocious enemy. I take my leave for now.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
Let us remember that the subject of this thread is ‘Deviating from the ‘thread” of the knowledge of God.’ Quite interesting that YHWH thought it important to write His words so that we would not “deviate” to the right hand or to the left. So that we would not add to or take away from what He revealed to us. His law is perfect. To add or subtract would ruin it.
Quite interesting that Y’shua did not reply to Satan, “I am feeling that it would be wrong to tempt YHWH.” He didn’t say, “I am not being led to bow down to you.” He didn’t say, “I sense in my spirit that it would not be wise to jump from this height.” He said, “It is written.” If we do not know what is written we will be unable to follow in the footsteps of Y’shua. Interesting that Y’shua quoted a certain writing, namely Deuteronomy, about living our lives by every word of YHWH…written ones included. As a matter of fact, the written ones are ones that were also spoken by YHWH. Breathed, might we say, by the Spirit. Inspired.
What does the Spirit of YHWH speak to our hearts? The same thing that He has always spoken. He reminds us of the things that have already been established. He leads us into all truth…not just personal truth. “Thy word is truth” is speaking of YHWH’s written word. What spirit would tell us to go against what is written? The same one that tempted Messiah to sin/transgress the law.
Is it any wonder that Paul pointed Timothy to the Tanakh for his instruction in righteousness and doctrine and good works? Why didn’t Paul say to just go by what you feel the Spirit is telling you? Why would John say that it is sin to transgress the law if we were not supposed to go by it?
Buddhism just doesn’t cut it with YHWH. Concrete truth does. Some things just do not change…YHWH’s Torah is one of them…at least until heaven and earth pass away…which is not yet. You really need to get this.
Shalom
Although finding scripture to support the spirit of truth being not about gnosticism or Judaizing is unquestionably readily present in the NT letters, one concern which arises in reading this article and an interview by M. B. of the present article author on the LOF is finding their own ongoing framing of personal teaching being also contexutalized by self aknowledged ongoing Gospel identifications and so associated self declarations. John stated long after developing his own personal testimony “If I say I have no sin I lie and the truth is not in me”, and “If I continue in sin I am none of his”. Reconciling these two statements with the ministry seems to be accomplished by Paul when he continually confesses personally that he is a sinner, and in need of faith and grace. This happens too in his self perceptions of his ministry being that of a servant. By becoming a minister of the Gospel, he alludes to His Gospel outline in introducing letters prior to advancing teaching,related truth, admonitions, taking on disputable matters, etc. There is no other eternal abiding truth than being in Christ is his Message in essence. That Paul himslef is in such a state of need is his own constant reference.
Paul confesses Romans 7 and 8. James declares that the testing of faith is ongoing for the believer in Christ and in so bearing His precious law of liberty, in loving one’s neighbor as oneself. He too speaks of confessing sin one to another, not really leaving those in ministry out of this equation. John falls on his face like a dead man when receiving the Revelation. Peter writes of his longsuffering and weakness. Yet over and over here in the VOR we are admonished without authors own self declarations of summary identification with their own reiterated Gospel ministry self association outline offerings–as with Peter or Paul–of what constitutes their asociation with the Gospel, and self humility related to its delivery before teaching the brethren. Insteadof this model, over and over, we are admonished, told what other ministries are not doing, how they are off base, how the world is going to hell in a handbasket, etc.
We are informed on the VOR that the power and presence of God is to be sought, and sin repented of, without the perspective too of those of declaration self identifying with their own ongoing need of the coverage of the Gospel Message Paul sustained. Peter too identifies with longsuffering, endurance, and the foundational Message himself. Why are we to hear and heed those writing here if they are not making alike self declarations? When will they summarize their own Gospel statements for alike comparisons to the present churhes spritual climate they bring up over and over in the VOR? Are they exhalting themselves as higher than the letter writer apostles as to presenting authority by not doing so in their articles, as do the letter writer apostles?
The thread spoken of above does not detach and posture as omniscnet in the Gospel and letter writers own teaching and self identification remarks contained thereby.
Bo,
1. I don’t believe in Buddhism.
2. Even if what that says really is true (saying, “it is written”, Jesus was “born of a woman, *born under the Law*”; if He said, “it is written”, who am I to say that that wasn’t part of the Old Covenant?? We do not serve by the old way of the letter but the new way of the Spirit, which is the Truth, Itself. The Word is Spirit (John), and the Spirit is Truth (1 John) — they’re the same. That’s why James says that we have received the ingraft Word. :)
3. He said in John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the Truth: Thy Word is Truth” — TRUE!
He also says, “If you continue in My Word, you will … know the Truth, and the Truth will make you free (from sin).”
Jesus, Who lives inside of us, is speaking Words of Life; if we live in them, we will be sanctified (set free from sin) (John 17:17).
We know that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood, because His Body and Blood are the Word of God, since “His Word tabernacled among us”. Jesus has made Himself available to us as the INGRAFT WORD; as 1 John says, “the SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH”, and 2 John 1:4 says, “I rejoice greatly that I have found certain of thy children walking in Truth…” : walking in the Spirit and walking in the Truth are one in the same,
Ron,
Isaiah 58 promises that those who obey God will “ride on the heights of the earth”; “the glory” lifted Elijah, Enoch and Jesus up into Heaven. :)
This is going to sound scandalous — and I don’t care !
It was reading the Bible (at times when God had either not told me to, or told me not to) that had become a great stumbling block in my life! Reading the Bible can damn people — like it, or not! I saw the Face of Jesus BEFORE “delving into the Bible” (though, when I was younger, I spent a year in a family member’s house, who made me go to church, do chores, no games, straight A’s, and read the Bible) — seeing His Face is what it is to “know Truth”, since He IS THE TRUTH. The Gentile believers didn’t need a stitch of help from those Jewish believers’ false Torah teachings in order to know how to live as unto God. God is a Spirit; those who live for Him and worship Him must do so in Spirit and Truth (the Spirit IS Truth, according to 1 John). I didn’t need help from the Bible to know God — though I’d had a vision that told me IF I were to read anything, read the Bible (and leave behind the magick books, etc., that I’d gotten myself involved in).
I don’t CARE what any other person has to say on this subject — the Bible, ITSELF, tells people to RUN TO PRAYER; STAY IN PRAYER AND IN THE SPIRIT: I am saying nothing different. Faith doesn’t come from reading the Bible; faith is a GIFT of GRACE, and the Throne of Grace is IN PRAYER/CONTACT WITH GOD. You don’t grow in faith from reading the Bible; you grow in faith from contacting JESUS. Faith is a Gift of Grace, and it is sustained through Grace (Prayer — the Spirit of God is called “the Spirit of Grace and Supplication” in Zech 12:10) The armored inward man of Ephesians 6 is a man of PRAYER. The whole armor is Christ, Himself, and He is the Word of God — “put on Christ”; and that happens ONLY IN PRAYER.
We will see in the Day of Judgment who was right.
Everyone is different; everyone’s walk is different. I don’t think it is wrong to read the Bible IF you’re being led to/unctioned — those led by the Spirit of God are His Sons.
If I would have just followed Jesus, instead of “reading the Bible” to find out what to do [I already automatically did many of the things I later found out that it charged men to do], or cowering when He told me, “FOLLOW ME!”, I would have never gotten into a lot of the trouble I’ve gotten into!
Peter says “Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”…He speaks of the Prophets of Old, that New Covenant Salvation was of their ministry of Jesus as is based of their insightful revelation, where “It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announce to you trough those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven….” Ministry not being self serving, ministry from the Prophets forward identified its ministers with an alike need of atonement, revelation of Christ, and faith toward Him completing Biblical promises for all.
Paul stated in Galations, “Paul, an apostle (not sent from men…)…Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord jesus Chrsit, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age….” In Ephesians, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spritual blessing….He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ Himself, according to the kind intention of his will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved….In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.” In Colossians “For He deilved us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins….Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of his body….” To the Thessalonians “…but after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Phillipe, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amind much opposition.” The writer of Hebrews shared “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompesense, how shall we escape if we neglected so great a salvation? After is was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also bearing witenss with them….” James wrote “James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ….the testing of your faith produces endurance and let endurance have its perfect result….” Peter writes too “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same quality as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ….”
John shared “…we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one antother, just as He commanded us.” Jude wrote “Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ….Beloved while I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation….” “Paul and Timothy [shared] bond-servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi….I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel….” To the Romans and Corinthians Paul described his afflictions, his service, his need for Christ, and his own self identification with the comfort of Christ in “all our affliction”. He emphasizes a conjoint “faith in Christ” as established through the Gospel before addressing specific idolatry, sin, or guilt.
In evey instance of servitude to God in Christ these witnesses mention “we”, “us”, “our”, the “common faith”, and justification by that faith being a provision of conjoint need for grace extending from the life of Christ as both shared by the apostles, and by those being addressed. Where it is acknowledged that “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, we have need for ministry of the Gospel. “He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification” (expanded in Rom 4:18-25) addresses the conjoint understanding apostolic ministry identified as being of its own ministers’ as well as others’ ongoing need.
“Our”, “we”, “us”, and “common faith” does not ever attempt to present an omniscent tone as extending from the ministers to people as being lesser souls, in contemplating matters of address in the letters, but point by point, precept by precept, hope by hope: as a comprehension of the need for the Gospel of the life, death, resurrection, and coming Day of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The whole point of the Scriptures is to DRAW NEAR TO JESUS; some people don’t even HAVE the Scriptures, but draw near to Jesus — and they do it a lot more often, because they don’t lean on the false strength of knowledge, rather than the only strength of the Spirit; they live as unto God “in the new way of the Spirit; not the old way of the letter.” Among such were the Gentile believers of Romans 2. It’s great to have someone who is older in spirit around, to rebuke you when you’re NOT in the Spirit (of course, you ought to know for yourself, and keep yourself in the Spirit/in the love of God, anyways); but, it isn’t 100% necessary — or else the believers in China would be up the creek without a paddle!
Tell me if the Spirit that wrote the Bible can’t reveal the same things to me that was revealed to the Apostle; that I actually need to read the command, “pray at all times” to pray at all times? It is INHERENT in my new nature; I practiced it BEFORE I knew the Bible said to!! It is by the GRACE (and power) of God, working in me the willingness to do things that please God that I knew, and practiced those things. “The Father works, and I work”.
Dan1el,
You wrote:
,blockquote>”The Gentile believers didn’t need a stitch of help from those Jewish believers’ false Torah teachings in order to know how to live as unto God.”
Are saying that the Torah is false? Are you saying that gentiles are better off without the Scriptures, even though Paul tells us that the Jew has an advantage in that he has the scripture? Are you saying that Paul was in error to instruct Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the Torah?
You wrote:
You have made a fallacious argument. You have not read the word closely. I have pointed this out to you many times and you have failed to adjust. Your loose interpretations are against the context of the passages in question. John does not say that the word is the spirit.
John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
That Y’shua’s words are spirit/breath and life is true. That they are the Spirit is not stated. Even in 1 John you have failed to see the context.
1 John 5
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Spirit is not being equated with the word here, for the very next verse calls the Holy Ghost and the Word two different entities, or else there are not three that bear witness. The Spirit is not even being equated with truth in the way you have stated it. You are really saying that the truth is the Spirit and any other thing is not the truth. John is not saying that the only truth is the Spirit. The oneness that the Word and Spirit share is that they agree. They do not say different things. The Word made flesh performed the written word of YHWH that is also spoken/breathed/spirited. The written word is truth. The spirited word is truth. If a spirited or written word is in contradiction to the scripture it is not from the right spirit and it is not truth.
The Spirit of truth inspired/spirited the Torah. The Word spoke the Torah to Moses. John makes it clear that it is not of the right spirit to break YHWH’s Torah.
1 John 5
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Unrighteousness is sin—sin is the transgression of the law—righteousness is shown by doing righteous actions which can never be transgression of the law, which is sin, which is unrighteousness. He that does not practice righteousness, which is described in the law, or does not love his brother is not walking as a child of YHWH, because love for YHWH’s children is shown by keeping YHWH’s commandments. YHWH’s Spirit teaches us this through John. The written words are the Spirit’s words.
Shalom
Dan1el,
You wrote:
Here I am an older brother telling you that you are not in the Spirit by rejecting what the scripture says, and by not accepting Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts as scripture. Here I am reminding you of a couple of much older brothers’ spirit breathed words. Just because the believers in China or elsewhere do not have the scripture does not mean that we are free to ignore the scripture. Quite the opposite. To whom much is given much is required.
Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
It would be good if you could see that Luke is scripture.
Shalom
Dan1el,
You wrote:
Yes and no. Yes it is possible. No it is not likely since you do not know the scripture as well as them, nor did you hear Messiah’s words. You have only a small portion of Messiah’s words for the Spirit to remind you of…esp since you reject the synoptics. You were not raised in a culture or a home that was based upon Torah. The foundation of the written word is what the Spirit uses to build upon. The foundation of the Word made flesh is the same foundation in 3D.
Shalom
Jabez,
I wish you would quote James accurately. It is the “perfect law of liberty” not the “precious law of liberty.” Big difference. But we have gone through this before…
Shalom
Ron,
It would appear that you reject Paul’s writings as scripture. I have not found this idea to produce good lasting fruit. Most of the people that I have encountered that looked at Paul this way ended up denying Messiah. I think that the main problem with Paul is the way we read him. Whether we have a Jewish or Gentile mindset, we can misunderstand him…as Peter says. Have you ever looked at Romans in the light of Paul’s “God forbid” statements? It looks like he expected many to misunderstand his argument…it is long. Paul qualifies and clarifies his stance so that the careful reader comes to a different conclusion than the casual or brainwashed reader. Here is a list of important points that Paul makes:
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
And then there is the fact that we are grafted and adopted into Israel and are no longer gentiles. And Paul’s example that he thought that we should follow…he continued to keep Torah after coming to Messiah. In Galatians he is only opposed to trying to gain righteous status by keeping laws, not against us following YHWH’s instructions as obedient children. He even says: “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) And that there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. YHWH’s law is obviously what he is referring to. The Torah does not keep us from producing the fruit…it is actually helpful in knowing if we are producing real fruit and not just feelings and our own version or our cultures version or the churches version of the fruit.
Give Paul another chance in light of his own statements. I have not found Paul to disagree with Torah or Messiah when I pay close attention to detail.
Shalom
Bo,
We’ll see what God says when we see Him Face-to-face; as for the direction of the argument, we could just go back to the threads and look at all the responses, and see we’re just repeating the same thing over and over again — so, I’m going to leave off replying to the same questions, which have all already been answered.
The only one I don’t have an answer for is the future celebration of feasts; however, as for New Testament Apostolic Doctrine, I am 1,000% certain of my position.
Wish you the best, friend.
Had a few minutes to check e-mails- so will answer the last inquiry, and catch up later.
Jesus endorses the Law and prophets emphatically (until heaven & earth pass…) but not specifically Paul’s epistles. This does not mean that I do not accept them as Scripture, however- I was brought up to believe the Bible as every verse equal to each other (a very narrow view of inerrancy) which is untenable for anyone who actually studies the Scriptures (e.g., how can Sennacherib’s words be equal to Jesus’- or Satan’s to GOD’s in Job?)
So I came to understand that the revelation is weighted- with Yeshua Messiah, Who Is God, obviously (to me) having preeminence. Since Paul clearly states sometimes that the Holy Spirit is speaking and sometimes he is giving his opinion (herein is the debate of apostolic authority), this brings us to the present: how much should a Church leader’s words be accepted as the Word of God, compared to yours and mine- who also have the Holy Spirit? Should the Pope or Senior Pastor be considered infallible because they say so?
Moses says even if a prophet’s words come true, if they lead you astray to follow other gods- forsake them.
I accept Paul’s epistles as Scripture- but the four gospels and Revelation more, because it is easier to see “thus saith the LORD.” Jesus also says the least apostle is greater than the greatest prophet, so Paul must be held in grat esteem- but everything he says equal to Jesus? No- but most religious tradition disagrees. This needs to be discussed further by the leaders of VOR.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
OK, as long as you realize that you are not dealing with what the passages actually say, but are projecting a Buddhist/New Age image upon the Knowledge/word of YHWH. No passage of scripture even eludes to the mystical, ethereal, and non concrete sort of truth that you cling to. You are basically saying that Messiah did not come in the flesh by your view, even though you would no doubt claim otherwise.
Shalom
Ron,
Fair enough. Just try and read Paul in light of his own explanations instead of with an imposed “Christian” mindset.
Shalom
Ron,
Fair enough. Just try and read Paul in light of his own explanations instead of with an imposed “Christian” mindset.
Shalom
waiting for this to appear on VOR. It shows up on e-mail first.
Bo, Dan is right in one respect: you don’t have to know the Bible to be saved. It was the revealing of Jesus that saved the thief on the cross; there are many modern testimonies of Jesus appearing to Muslims and them abandoning their strict sharia law (not related to Torah, of course) immediately.
The Word is Logos in John 1. Dan is talking more about Rhema: revealed Word by the Holy Spirit. So you are both right. Logos is complete and absolute: Rhema is Revelation Light that radically changes lives. I prefer Wisdom as the proper word for this over knowledge.
“Dead letter” is unrevealed Logos without heart; a barely responsive rote practice. Spirit is exciting and fresh; yet without a preacher to teach, satan can lead astray, especially if a lot of old baggage is still present.
I have been studying original Hebrew and Greek passages passionately for over a decade, and posting on some smaller InJesus groups for the same amount of time (though I quit going on it a couple years back when Upstream Ministries began posting separately). This is not either/or: both the WORD and SPIRIT are passions beyond the comprehension of the world.
In Him, Ron M.
There are two bodies — the spirit, and the flesh: the spirit was “with one sacrifice, perfected forever”, and “life”; the flesh is evil, incarnate: satan’s deed was to walk after the flesh, rather than the Spirit (accusatory, rather than merciful, seeking to usurp God’s Throne, to replace God’s judgments of mercy with his own accusations; flesh-borne thoughts, declaring himself, rather than God, the One who sent him [he was a messenger/angel]) “dead, because of sin”.
“Satanic” spirits have one aim — make men walk in the darkness [together with him] of their flesh-bodies [desires], rather than [together with God] in the Light of their spirit-bodies [desires]. Jesus was born “in the likeness of sinful flesh”; but was white, Light — “without spot, blemish or wrinkle”; without defect. He did come in the flesh; but, not sinful flesh:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
The serpent Moses lifted was not a serpent, itself; it was brass, made “in the likeness of” the serpents: as Paul said, “in the likeness of sinful flesh”. Jesus had no sin in His Flesh; however, He did have Flesh.
Dan1el,
And we are supposed to mortify the deeds of the flesh which are sin and sin is the transgression of the law and the carnal mind will not subject itself to YHWH’s law and by the spirit we should be keeping the law, but if we are not then we are not walking by the spirit but by the flesh and cannot please YHWH because we are still disobedient and could even be children of disobedience whom the wrath of YHWH comes upon and we deceive ourselves when we think that we led by the spirit to not keep YHWH’s perfect law which is the same as it has always been and is not some new law that is in contradiction to the only law of YHWH.
Shalom
Bo,
Yet, the Law could never cause people to mortify the deeds of the flesh; “IF YOU WALK BY THE SPIRIT” is the condition — a present benefit [New Covenant] NOT available under the Old Covenant — “you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh”, and “if BY THE SPIRIT you mortify the deeds”: the condition “BY THE SPIRIT” is in opposition to “by the Law” — the Law was a type of the Spirit, and Moses the type of Jesus.
That is why it says, “IF a Law could ever make a man righteous” — the logical conclusion being “BUT” a Law could not; Romans says, “what the Law COULD NOT DO… GOD DID in sending His Son”: today, we have “benefit” [Galatians 5] which has accomplished all the Law was meaning to accomplish (“the righteous requirement” is fulfilled by those who walk in the Spirit — i.e. “love mercy, do justice; walk humbly with God”), but which the Law “COULD NOT DO”!
Could it get any clearer?
What could the Law do? It could definitely “kill” men, and revive sin” [Romans 7:9]; and make the “transgression” “increase” (Romans 5:20), in order to fully explain man’s depravity to him and drive him to a Savior from such sins (Gal 3:19 — the Law is not against the Promise; but works to proliferate it by its ministry of condemnation, which drives men to their knees crying out, together with Paul in Romans 7:24, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”, and the logical conclusion of Romans 7:25 “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”; “what the Law could not do… God did by sending His Son…”! The reason some Jews “did not attain righteousness through the Law” is that they did not follow it by faith — i.e.: to its logical conclusion — together with Paul (Romans 7:24); but the Gentiles knew their sinfulness: the sheep of the Lord Jesus are ONLY THOSE WHO KNOW THEIR SIN, as we had shared before), since it is the “strength of sin” 1 Corinthians 15:56. The SOLE reason you will not sin is because you are NOT under the Law, but under Grace! “Who” will save you from the body with the Law of sin and death in it? Not a Law, since the Law is not a PERSON — you need a “WHO”: Messiah; Grace and Truth!
The “Law of God” to which the flesh does not submit is not “the Law of Moses”; it is “the Law of Faith” — as Jesus teaches, “the work of God is that you believe on Him Whom He has sent.”
“Without faith it is impossible to please God”; those who walk by faith in the Word of Promise/Kindness/Election will be pleasing to God — those who do not walk by faith cannot be pleasing to God (and, you see, they didn’t attain righteousness, because they didn’t cry out for release from their sins, but purported to be holy through the Law, instead of submitting to its “ministry of condemnation” 2 Cor 3:9.)
As for “all sin is also breaking of the Law” — true; but not all breaking of the Law is sin. Any time a person is sinning (“pleasing self”; living for the “passing pleasure of sin” [which thing can be exponentiated by the bringing in of a Law] — as opposed to doing those things that are “pleasing” to God, and enduring the “momentary suffering” [such as the Spirit of the Father {Who also worked the same in His Son, Christ — John 14:10} works in the New Covenant believer — i.e.: “to will and do for His good pleasure”]), it can and will be categorized into a “department” of what the Law condemns; however, its converse is not true (“all breaking of the Law” is not “sin” — David wore the ephod and ate the shewbread meant only for Priests; Rahab was declared righteous for lying [to name a few: context is everything]). If we OBEY the Spirit — not just be forgetful hearers, but doers of the Laws being imprinted on our minds and hearts; submitting to the perfect Law of Liberty (the Law of Life in the Spirit — we will never sin; this is the SOLE CONDITION, as Romans 6:14 teaches, under which “sin will not master” you: the converse is true, also — those under the Law are EXCEPTIONALLY sinful, the Law having been added “that the transgression might abound” (in the same, grace abounded all the more).
How can anyone deduct (from the words of “New Covenant” writings) that we are, as yet, “under the Law”? Honestly, Bo, I respect your conviction, but you cannot base it on any Apostolic doctrine I know of.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit.
There are a few grammatical errors in the little posting; but, I’m sure you get the idea.
The knowledge of God is NOT the knowledge of the Scripture; it is, as Paul said, “some of you do not have the knowledge of God: I say this to your shame.” He wasn’t talking about knowing Biblical verses; he was talking about knowing GOD — “let him who boasts boast in this: that he knows Me” Jeremiah 9:24; as it was said in John, the Scriptures are good for nothing except destroying people AND/OR leading them to Messiah: if the Scriptures don’t lead a man to Jesus so that JESUS can be the Shepherd, though you may have tons of knowledge, you definitely won’t have eternal life. Eternal life is the whole POINT of Jesus’s sacrifice — and, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, Who God sent.
There is so much to say about this.
The knowledge of God is the knowing of the PERSON of God; NOT letters on a page, THOUGH THOSE LETTERS MIGHT LEAD YOU TO GOD, IF YOU FOLLOW THEM (TO THEIR LOGICAL CONCLUSION). The sign on the highway, IF you follow it through to its end, MIGHT lead you to the city, which it says you will arrive at IF you continue on it; BUT, if you just go around, looking at signs, and never following them to their ends, you will get stuck on the highway, run out of gas, and never arrive to the END for which those signs were made — the signs have ZERO PURPOSE, other than pointing men TO a certain locality to which they wish to arrive; without the locality, the sign wouldn’t exist: the Scripture is of no value, other than leading you to Messiah, but some people arrive at Messiah without being scholars of the Word. Conversely, some are scholars of the Word, but still are not free from sin. Knowing Jesus is not knowing the letters on the page; knowing Jesus is through submitting to His Words that He communicates. Those who obey His Word (which are the Father’s Words) will be loved by the Father, and then Jesus will love them, and He will reveal Himself to them.
What is the thing they should believe? That they are sinful.
“they will all know Me… for I will forgive their sins…”
Logically, then, if anyone nullifies the condition — i.e.: by saying that they do not need to be forgiven of sins, because they are already holy, through the Law [1 John also declares this as being a deal-breaker for Truth being in you] — by which one may know Him (recognizing and repenting of their sin, whenever the Holy Spirit convicts them of it [this is one of His ministries]), they reject the entire Word of God (no matter if they are stuffed with the Word, until it falls out of their ears), and “count themselves unworthy of everlasting life”. Here, you see that the only condition that needs to be met in order to gain eternal life (i.e.: eternal life is to know God — or, “have the knowledge of God”) is to know “I have sinned, and am unrighteous” [the man who beat his breast went home more justified than the self-righteous Pharisee].
Who DOESN’T know that they have sinned? People who are deceived.
Why are they deceived? Because “men will wax worse and worse — deceiving and being deceived”. The deception (“delusion of grandeur”) serves their purpose: self-glorification — inasmuch as this is true, the Pharisees (some; not all) were called “sons of satan”: seeking [and stealing] the praise which belongs only to God from their peers. Their attitude of looking down their noses at people [satanically-inspired flesh] worked great with the delusion that they were holy; their attitude of looking down their noses at people [satanically-inspired flesh] was THREATENED by the Truth which Messiah spoke: they were sinful (THESE were the words of Moses which they had refused to believe — they refused the “accusations of Moses” [John 5:45], since the Law had “the ministry of condemnation” [2 Cor 3:9].)
Some, however, WERE convincted by the Spirit of their sinfulness (John 12). Others [Gentiles] didn’t need the Law to show them they are sinful [in order to lead them to repentance unto the “knowledge of God”] — they know that they have done evil, within themselves!!
“They will all know Me, because I will forgive their sins” — I will know God, because He will forgive the sins that I confess and OWN that I’ve committed: thereby, I am “drawn near by the Blood”.
The “knowledge of God” is KNOWING GOD — KNOWING GOD is eternal life, and eternal life/knowing God is only for those who recognize that they have sinned (so their sins they admit they have committed can be forgiven, and then they can know God once they’ve been forgiven): the Law was supposed to show men they were sinful in order to make them cry out wit Paul that they needed a Savior (Galatians 3; Roman 7:24); but, they “refused to believe the Words of Moses” [John 5:45], “being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness” [Romans 10:3] — it is NOT “knowing the Bible”; therefore, your accusation that I am somehow preaching/practicing heresy (because I say “men don’t need to know the Bible in order to know God”), is false. Men only need to know they are sinful in order to come to know God.
Whoever KNOWS JESUS [not “obeys the Law” — since none can but fail, as has been demonstrated; this leads a man to run to the Savior] will be freed from sin, because they accept the Truth. Some may “know” many “truths” [but Paul will say they still “have not known as they ought” (1 Cor 8:2)], but are yet ignorant of the Truth [i.e.: JESUS; wherefore, it says some continuously learn but NEVER COME TO KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, JESUS (2 Ti 3:7)] concerning themselves — for that reason, they have “no knowledge of God” — they “know many mysteries and know much knowledge”, yet “don’t have the love of the Father in themselves” and so they “are nothing” (1 cor 13:32); because they prefer the delusion of grandeur concerning themselves. Whoever knows Jesus by definition, therefore, is free from sin (whoever doesn’t know Jesus is IN SIN, because they’ LEFT HIS PRESENCE TO GO AND SIN; therefore, they do not KNOW HIM) — it isn’t from adhering to the Law of Moses; but from submitting our whole selves to the Words of the Son of God [Who IS the Word, Himself], that we can remain IN FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM [not with the Bible; but with a Person — it takes a PERSON to set us free from the Law of sin and death in our members].
I’m ACCEPTABLE and RIGHTEOUS to Him [if I accept His Truth that I am a sinner — thereby, abide in Him]; based on that, I come to Him — because I meet the requirements of acceptableness based upon receiving the righteousness of God in Christ, through the blood in which I place my faith [and even that is not of myself; it is the Gift of God — that no man may boast: I am nothing; but, I am being clothed with Him who is everything — “all in all” — I am utterly undeserving and unworthy]. I plan on staying with Him, because that is the first thing I didn’t do — STAY WITH HIM: idolatry is in all places, elsewhere!! Therefore, I must REMAIN WITH HIM, so that I can “do all things” through His strengthening Grace: it is only BY being with Him that I can be empowered [by grace — being with Him is to draw near to the Throne of Grace, and to find help in the time of need] to have an inward strength to manifest the inward reality of holiness that I am through remaining in Him. The solution to sin is being received, without price, by the Son of God; and, living through Him — NOT “obeying the Law” (which cannot be done).
IT’S NOT MOSES’ LAW, IT’S THE FATHER AND SON’S WHO ARE ONE!
THE STANDARD WASN’T SET TO BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD: BLESSINGS FOR OBEDIENCE IS PART OF OUR MARRIAGE COVENANT WITH GOD.
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
Nope.
Col 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above [“above” — i.e.: “heavenly”; not “earthly” — rewards], where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
Joh 4:36 He that REPEATH receiveth wages [“wages = rewards”; not “eternal life”, itself, since eternal life is a Gift; not “wages”], and gathereth fruit unto life eternal; that he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
2Jn 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward [at the return of Jesus, when He “judges His people”, a “reward” is to be looked forward to].
1Co 3:12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 each man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward [at the judgment].
————————
These all talk about:
a) heavenly rewards, that are
b) bestowed at the return of Messiah
Then, our works being done, until then, are all being done to receive a reward AT THAT TIME [not on earth: quite the contrary; one might give pause to think Paul was under a curse by all the things he suffered for preaching the Gospel], not before. Since we are not under the Law, we also must not look for those earthly rewards; we are under Christ’s Law, and look forward to heavenly rewards.
Dan1el,
Hezekiah’s version of the “knowledge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah.
2 Chronicles 30
22 And Hezekiah spake comfortably unto all the Levites that taught the good knowledge of the LORD: and they did eat throughout the feast seven days, offering peace offerings, and making confession to the LORD God of their fathers.
Solomon’s version of the “Knoweldge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah.
Proverbs 2
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Hosea’s version of the “Knoweldge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah.
Hosea 1
1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Paul’s version of the “knowledge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah that makes one wise unto salvation and teaches us about good works. Being wise unto salvation is not just realizing that we cannot keep the law, for we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Colossians 1
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
True, but not completely true. As you can see from the quotes above, we find a consistent witness in the scriptures that would indicate that we gain in the knowledge of YHWH by knowing His law, because it is a revelation of what love looks like…and YHWH is love. We need to know Him, but we do not really know him if we are continuing to break His law.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
But you twist this:
You conveniently leave off: “for sin is the transgression of the law.” This is the definition of sin. You need to look at the whole verse and the context instead of attempting to prove a point that is not really in the passage. It is impossible for “not all breaking of the law is sin” to be true if John is correct in saying that: “sin is the transgression of the law.” There are times when YHWH does not impute our sin upon us, but it is still sin to transgress the law…period. Grace covers unintentional sin only. When we sin willingly there is no sacrifice to cover that sin. (Heb. 10:26) We must confess and repent to be forgiven of purposeful sin. We must confess our unintentional sins when we come to the knowledge of the truth. When we find out that YHWH’s law tells us not to eat swine, we are to confess that we have sinned in the past and commit to not sin like that again. That is what repentance is. If we do this we will be being continually cleansed from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) If we reject the idea that transgression of YHWH’s law is sin, then we will not confess and repent, thus we will fail to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. You see, we will continue to err if we do not know the scripture and put it into practice. The power of YHWH and His Spirit of grace is to be used in doing what His Torah instructs.
Matthew 22
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Can you see the huge flaw in your statement above, now? Or do you accept that Y’shua really said what Matthew records?
Continued below.
Continued from above.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Your statement above contradicts Paul. He says that we are not to sin/transgress the law because we are under grace, not that we won’t because we are under grace. We need to apply ourselves to YHWH’s instructions instead of ignoring them…as you recommend. If we do not do righteousness we are not righteous. To this John and Paul agree. Without obedience we are not righteous. Real faith causes us to keep the law.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Let’s look again at the context. Here are some statements leading up to Paul’s statement about the carnal mind not being subject to YHWH’s law.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
It is the Torah that Paul is speaking of. What law is weak because of our flesh? YHWH’s Torah. (8:3) It is the Torah that we will keep/fulfill when we walk in the Spirit. (8:4) It is the Torah that our carnal minds do not want to keep. (8:7) Walking in the Spirit does not cause us to ignore the law…that is what a carnal/fleshly mind does. The law does not need to be changed or ignored. It is perfect according to David and James. Our flesh needs to be dealt with…killed…mortified, so that we can begin to fulfill Torah by the Spirit. If we are listening to a Spirit that tells us to ignore YHWH’s Torah or that tells us to break it, it is not the same one that Paul says to walk in. The perfect law is weak because of our sinful flesh, and cannot make us to or help us to keep it. The real Spirit will empower us to keep it. We need to know the scripture and the power of YHWH.
Who is set free? Who/what is the Truth? Can you accept the One that is the Truth without accepting the truth that He lived and taught? I think that you have not paid close attention to what Messiah did say. Let’s look.
John 8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Whoever continues to transgress the law is a servant of sin. He is not free from sin, for he is still sinning. The Son does not make us free by destroying the law or making it void. He makes us free by empowering us to not transgress the law (sin). Who shall know the truth and thus be set free? Only those that are Y’shua’s disciples that continue in His word. It is only those who keep His commandments. His commandments are in no way contrary to His father’s. It is obvious that it is sin to not keep the Father’s commandments and that those who continue to sin are not free. If the Son sets us free by us continuing in His word, that would mean that to do what the Son says causes us to be free from sin which is transgressing YHWH’s Torah. Paul and John say the same thing.
Continued below.
Continued from above.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
What if the road we are on has signs that say, “Go ahead and eat pork.” “Do not worry about keeping YHWH’s Sabbaths.” “Murder is not that bad.” “Adultery is not wrong between consenting adults.” All these sings are telling us that we are on the wrong road. If we are called to be like Messiah, the signs on our road should tell us to keep the very same law that He did. The real signs say things like, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” “Do not covet your neighbors wife.” “Be ye holy for I am Holy.” Now if we find that we are on the wrong road, we need to change roads. If we find that we are unable to do what the signs say on the right road, we need a different vehicle. One that is suited to the steep and rough and narrow path. The Spirit if YHWH is the correct vehicle. If we think that we have the correct vehicle and it keeps traveling down the wrong road, we are deceived.
It is a very dangerous spirit that would say, “…the Scripture is of no value, other than leading you to Messiah.” It is a narrow view and not the narrow way. It is bound to ultimately lead down the wrong road. It doesn’t make us wise unto salvation. It causes us to reject knowledge, and ultimately be rejected by YHWH. (Hos. 4:6)
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye law breakers.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The “Lord, Lord” spirit that causes us to be lawbreakers does not lead to life. We were removed from the tree of life because we refused to keep YHWH’s commandments. We will not be let in until we learn to keep them. The real Spirit empowers us to keep them. There is great reward for keeping and teaching others to keep YHWH’s commandments, according to Y’shua. The psalmist concurs.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Beware of the great transgression…presumptuous sin…willingly transgressing YHWH’s law after coming to the knowledge of the truth. You cannot understand your errors. The Torah of YHWH is designed to keep us on the correct path. The carnal mind will not be subject to it. The Spirit led man loves YHWH’s law and is empowered to keep it.
Shabbat Shalom
Dan,
Do you believe “the Christ” and the Holy Spirit via Paul are different and separate from the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Bo,
1. “Hezekiah’s version of the knowledge of God included the Torah, Solomon’s version of the “Knoweldge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah, Hosea’s version of the “Knoweldge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah.”
Great; however, we are not under the Law of Moses — the Law we need to know, today, is the Law that Jesus, the Ingraft Word [James 1:21] instructs us to obey, rather than be “forgetful hearers” of [James 1:25]. Those who reject Jesus’s Law — as was seen in the religious, self-righteous — reject it because they were sinful; therefore. The Law could not perfect people; whoever thinks that obeying the Law will assist in their sanctification is, according to Paul, a “fool” [Galatians 3:3], is disobeying the Gospel Truth, and is therefore bewitched [Gal 3:1] (disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft) .
Once again, that’s the old Covenant; refuted this many times, using examples such as the fact that those “dogs” — “especially of the circumcision” — destroyed the Work of God in their attempt to spread “Torah”, according to Romans 2, and the entire Book of Galatians. You have no response for this. You say that “the problem was with them observing it as for justification”, but you ignore Galatians 3:3 that says you are a fool if you started in Spirit and think you will be perfected by the flesh works of the Law.
2. “Paul’s version of the “knowledge of God” included knowing YHWH’s Torah that makes one wise unto salvation and teaches us about good works. Being wise unto salvation is not just realizing that we cannot keep the law, for we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”
The Scriptures are God-breathed and good to fully equip a man for all righteousness — Philippians explains this fully: “…being found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that is through the Law, but by faith that is in Christ”. The Scriptures teach you how to have faith in Jesus — how to be found in Him; however, in case you need to have it explained further, he explicitly says, “NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT IS FROM THE LAW”.
3. “True, but not completely true. As you can see from the quotes above, we find a consistent witness in the scriptures that would indicate that we gain in the knowledge of YHWH by knowing His law, because it is a revelation of what love looks like…and YHWH is love. We need to know Him, but we do not really know him if we are continuing to break His Law.”
Nope; as I showed before, the “fiery Law” [Deu 33:2] was given by Moses: Moses was a foreshadow of Jesus, and the “fiery Law” was a foreshadow of the “Spirit and Fire” — those who receive the Spirit have received all they need to know God and to know how to serve God, according to Romans 2 (which I quote often to you, so you should know the context) and 1 John, where it says, “the anointing teaches you all things”.
4. I didn’t “conveniently” do anything; I don’t need to change what I said. White light produces all the colors of the rainbow, but the colors of the rainbow don’t produce white light — not everything works both ways. Yes, sin is transgression of the Law, but not all transgression of the Law is sin.
Can you explain why Rahab is quoted as a woman of faith (and heir of righteousness) for LYING, which is against the Law? You didn’t touch David’s activities, either — kind of “convenient”, eh?
5. “Can you see the huge flaw in your statement above, now? Or do you accept that Y’shua really said what Matthew records?”
Nope; I see Scripture in action — the Laws of God written in the inner being by the Spirit; the anointing teaching us all things, and therefore we are told “you know all things” (1 John).
6a. “Your statement above contradicts Paul. He says that we are not to sin/transgress the law because we are under grace, not that we won’t because we are under grace.”
Really? I don’t think I misunderstood or misrepresented the concept:
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Pretty clear: the reason sin doesn’t have dominion is because you’re not under the Law (which is the opposite of Grace — i.e.: the POWER OF SIN 1 Cor 15:56 ), but under Grace.
6b. We need to apply ourselves to YHWH’s instructions instead of ignoring them…as you recommend.
I am only saying what Paul said…
Rom 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.
6c. If we do not do righteousness we are not righteous. To this John and Paul agree. Without obedience we are not righteous.
Doing righteousness is to receive Jesus’s testimony; those who refused to receive His testimony did so because they loved the sin (the world = boastful pride of life) of receiving the praise of man.
6d. Real faith causes us to keep the law.
Yes, the Law is established through faith — the righteous requirement of the Law (the whole point of the Law) is kept.
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to 1) do justice, and to 2) love kindness, and to 3) walk humbly with thy God?
7. “Let’s look again at the context. Here are some statements leading up to Paul’s statement about the carnal mind not being subject to YHWH’s law.”
a. I can tell you that had Eve submitted her faith to God, and “fought the good fight of faith [Law of Faith]”, she wouldn’t have sinned. Adam & Eve had received DIRECT SPOKEN WORDS FROM GOD, and all they had to do was PLACE THEIR FAITH IN THAT, and LIVE IT.
b. The Torah must be followed by faith — and those who follow it by faith get condemned, and humbled, and they run to Yeshua to be delivered from their bodies of sin. The Law of faith was transgressed by those hypocritical Pharisees who rejected Jesus’s testimony — because they didn’t *****BELIEVE***** Moses’s Words (of condemnation).
8. “Who is set free? Who/what is the Truth? Can you accept the One that is the Truth without accepting the truth that He lived and taught? I think that you have not paid close attention to what Messiah did say. Let’s look.”
All who believe in Him are free from sin. Obviously, we are not to live 100% as Christ — many get married (He didn’t); the Galatians were warned against getting circumcised (Christ did get circumcised), etc., etc., : Christ was “BORN UNDER THE LAW” ; we are NOT UNDER LAW:
Rom 6:14, 15 …ye are not under Law, but under grace… we are not under Law
1 Cor 9:20 not being myself under the Law
Gal 5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the Law.
9. “Whoever continues to transgress the law is a servant of sin.”
No; whoever doesn’t submit to Christ’s Instruction is a servant of sin.
10. “His commandments are in no way contrary to His father’s.”
God gave the Law for sinful people; Jesus’s Law is to be for holy people — the Law will be different:
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU
11. “What if the road we are on has signs that say, “Go ahead and eat pork.” “Do not worry about keeping YHWH’s Sabbaths.” “Murder is not that bad.” “Adultery is not wrong between consenting adults.” All these sings are telling us that we are on the wrong road.”
We are to exit this world; not continue living in it, under rudimentary principles. Worrying about whether I will eat pork or not is like worrying whether I will jump in front of a truck — it isn’t on my mind, at all, since the rewards I would obtain from it would be EARTHLY, and having nothing to do with the recompense of the Lord at His return. In Revelation, He never once mentioned to the churches the Law as needful to abide by; He never rebuked them for not following Torah — He rebuked them for losing their first love for Him (and the works that issued from that love), for falling into immorality, etc.; but never for failing to keep the entire Law.
You are linking the THOUGHT of breaking one Law to breaking the whole Law; that is the problem: by your citing the Law, and asking “if I break this Law, how many more will I break?” you are returning to the Law (in the very question, “if I break this Law, which other ones will I break?”) and are under the curse. I don’t need to consult a Law; the Law was just a shadow of the Spirit — I should consult the Spirit.
12. Doesn’t make us wise unto salvation.
What? I never said that; on the contrary, that is precisely what I believe it does: leads you to salvation through faith in Christ by destroying your self-trust; it makes you say “I am weak”, so that with God’s help you can say “I am strong”.
13. 2 Timothy 3:15, 16, 17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[yes, Scripture speaks of Christ, and leads you to believe in Christ to be saved: that is exactly what I believe. Ofcourse, you don’t need to know them to believe you are a sinner and in need of salvation through faith in Christ]
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[a) righteousness = being found in Christ (Pp 3:9): the Scripture teaches you *****how to be found in Christ*****
b) Jesus applied many of the stories SPRITUALLY (internalized their applications), when He spoke to the churches, in Revelation 2 + 3 : those chs saw Jesus testing the works of men’s hearts.]
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
[If you are once again insinuating that this is in reference to the Law, go ahead and check all the Scriptures aforementioned that WORD FOR WORD say “you are not under the Law”]
14. Matthew 5: 17, 18, 19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
a. The Law and Prophets spoke of Christ; therefore, His Life & Ministry were the fulfillment of the Law & Prophets.
b. No one is saying to break the Law, anyways (why would I delight in breaking the Law?); I believe that the only way to “fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law” is to walk in the Spirit — it was never done while under the Old Covenant. The righteous requirement focuses more on the spiritual substance than the visible conduct — unlike the Pharisees who “swallowed camels” (practiced self-indulgence; but were sadly unaware of their spiritual {and FAR LARGER} ineptitude) while straining out “gnats” (majored on comparably unimportant outward works). For more on the size and weight of the spiritual (substance) aspect, remember that the widow who gave the mite gave more than the men who gave large sums, and that “a beautiful girl who lacks discretion is like a pig with a gold ring in its nose”: we are shown time and time again that the spiritual side needs to be majored on. Does that mean that the works aren’t important? No; but that if the religious zealots were more concerned for their inward/spiritual states, they wouldn’t have “swallowed widows houses”, while tithing “mint and cumin” — hypocrites, and BLIND guides! That’s the sinfulness of sin on display.
If we clean the inside of the cup (which is the whole whole of Jesus’s Teaching — His coming is/was as a refiner’s fire, and a fuller’s soap, purging/cleansing the INWARD PART, storing Truth there), the outside will be clean (clean WORKS).
The inside of the cup will be clean in proportion that we obey the Spirit’s teachings/conviction on “sin, righteousness and the judgment”, and “the anointing” that “teaches us all things”; the Roman believers were living perfectly pleasing to God [Romans 2], without receiving instruction from the Torah. You keep bringing up the Torah as if it applies to believers, ignoring the Scriptures that says we are dead to It, that we are free from it, that we are not under it, which were listed for you, before.
15. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye law breakers.
Yes, all who are under the Law are under the curse, because they break the Law; only those under Grace are “fulfillers of the righteous requirement of the Law”.
Those who do not submit to the Law of Faith remain in the Law; those who obey the Law of Faith find Christ, and are sanctified through His Words of Truth (John 17:17). The condition upon which someone obtains eternal life (this is the opposite of being condemned for being a lawbreaker) is receiving the Words of Jesus Christ. The Word, as it was shared with you before, that we are required to believe in order to come to know God, is simply that we have sinned and are condemned.
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Who gets punished (these are the false prophets, as also 1 John warns us of : they are men who distort the Gospel, such as the Gnostics, and the Judaizers)? Those who don’t know God.
Why don’t they know Him? Because they don’t obey the Gospel.
Is there a case of such a thing in Scripture? Yes; the Galatians “disobeyed the Gospel”, because they went back to obeying the Law.
What is the converse? Those who are saved — saved because they know God.
How can you attain that converse situation? By allowing God to forgive your sins [Jer 31: 34]
16. Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The Commandment of God is to believe the Son — the Apostle Paul did NOT live the way you say men should live; he desired NOT to have a righteousness through the Law, but by FAITH IN CHRIST. Understand? He was saying very clearly that He was being sanctified by putting his faith in Christ’s Words; NOT by obeying the Law.
Php 3:9 and be found in him, NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH COMES THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST — THE RIGHTEOUSNESS ROM GOD THAT DEPENDS UPON FAITH…
Gal 2:20 … the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith — THE FAITH WHICH IS IN THE SON OF GOD…
See? Apostle Paul lived righteously (sanctified) by believing the Words of Jesus:
Joh 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him [believe = obedience ; disbelieve = disobedience].
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your Word is Truth.
Joh 8:28 …as the Father taught me, I speak these things.
Jesus speaks God the Father’s Words which convict of sin righteousness and the judgment and sanctify us; Apostle Paul was living his life on the earth in righteousness — but NOT his own righteousness, which is by the Law; but the righteousness which is by way of faith in Christ — by believing whatever the Son of God told him.
17. Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Only if they follw it by faith; all the others “stumble over the stumbling stone” God had installed in Zion. Those who follow it by faith are humbled, and seek Yeshua for salvation from their body of sin, and “through the Law, die to the Law”; and, as Paul, stop seeking righteousness of their own through the Law, but seek that righteousness which is from God through faith in Christ.
18a. Beware of the great transgression…presumptuous sin…willingly transgressing YHWH’s law after coming to the knowledge of the truth.
No; the sin we should avoid is NOT OBEYING THE GOSPEL and the Word of Jesus
Rom 1:5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the nations, for His Name’s sake;
18b. You cannot understand your errors.
That’s why I have the Rabbi, Jesus, to give me Light; the danger is hardening the heart, and not allowing the Light of the Gospel to shine in my heart.
18c. The carnal mind will not be subject to it.
The only way to be released from the carnal mind is to believe the Gospel:
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death [flesh]?
Heb 10:20 …the Veil — that is to say, His Flesh… [the Veil = His Flesh]
2Co 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil [the uncircumcised flesh of the heart — Rom 2:29] lies over their hearts.
2Co 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil [flesh] is removed [circumcised — Rom 2:29].
18d. After the carnal mind is removed, the Law is no longer needed, since it is only given for sinful men…
1Ti 1:9 as knowing this, that law IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
But, “in Christ”, we are new creations, made after the Image of the Holiness of the Truth — we are holy; therefore, the Law is not for me!
Those who are under the New Covenant, and led by the Spirit, are NOT UNDER THE LAW:
Gal 5:18 BUT IF YE ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.
===========================================
Bo, PLEASE, if you are going to answer, respond to EACH AND EVERY NUMBER. Don’t dance around the verses that outright say “you are not under the Law”, such as Galatians 5:18. Please respond to 1 Tim 1:9; Galatians 5:18, etc., — don’t “conveniently” ignore them, deceiving not only yourself but any poor soul who might believe you.
Thanks, bro Bo.
Bo,
Gal 5:18 BUT IF YE ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.
If you want to be under the Law, it is because you are not in grace/not led by the Spirit.
Ron,
The same God; just different stages in His Plan to save humanity.
Dan,
For someone who does not believe in “Scripture”, you certainly use a whole lot of Scripture.
Or, is the entire OT now excluded? (Has heaven and earth passed?)
As to “we are not under the Law”, does that make you an outlaw? Perhaps an in-law?
Twenty years ago, I would have been excommunicated for bringing up most of what I have already brought forth in @98% of U.S. Churches; but the questions remain the same; a bit more fine-tuned.
Please quit hiding behind your and answer some simple questions. Can you tell me why Paul’s revelation is greater than Jesus of Nazareth’s; or am I misunderstanding something?
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
I never said I didn’t believe in Scripture — that is an attempted mischaracterization of me — I said that I screwed up by settling for it, instead of following Christ.
I never said the OT was excluded; I prefer it.
Paul and Jesus’s messages are not different; it is impossible to keep the Law for those who are under the Law; it is only possible to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (the thing the Law is trying to get you to do) by walking in Grace/in the Spirit. There is no difference.
Bo,
Please, AT LEAST tell me how you still think we’re under Law in light of these verses:
1) Rom 6:14, 15 …ye are not under Law, but under grace… we are not under Law
2) 1 Cor 9:20 not being myself under the Law
3) Gal 5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the Law.
Paul can’t save you. Paul can’t give you the Holy Spirit.
“How can people believe in ‘once saved always saved’?” (#2) By knowing Jesus.
Ron,
Jesus never taught OSAS; He taught that His disciples were branches of the True Vine: if any branch did not remain in the Vine, it would be rendered incapable of bearing fruit; unfruitful branches would be summarily cut off, dry up, gathered and thrown into the fire.
Ron & Bo,
.
\Php 3:9 …and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of mine own — even that which is of the Law — but that [righteousness] which is through faith in Christ: the righteousness which is from God by faith.
\Joh 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in Me.
This is the principle Apostle Paul lived by to live righteously: he put all his effort into “being found in Him”.
\Rom 5:21 …GRACE REIGN[S] THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS, unto eternal life — through Jesus Christ our Lord.
\Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
\1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
“Grace reigns through righteousness” (righteousness being defined as “believing God”): Jesus is God, and God’s Word: when Jesus speaks to Paul, He is expounding on the Life within Himself in speaking God’s Words filled with Spirit and Life.
.
\Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
What will the Son tell you? It won’t be the Law; or else, if it were, He couldn’t make you righteous:
\Rom 8:3 For what the Law COULD NOT DO…
\Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under Law, but under Grace.
\Gal 5:18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under Law.
\Joh 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for He gives the Spirit without measure.
\Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
But it is obvious that His Words will sanctify [John 17:17] — that is because His Words will be Spirit and Life: therefore, what ever He is saying, He most definitely will not be putting you under the Law of Moses — you will be being led by the Spirit, and not under Law: His will be Words of Grace; not words of Law.
\2Co 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a NEW COVENANT, NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT; for the letter [Old Covenant Law’s Letters held/hold the ministry = condemnation; to lead them to Christ, their Savior] kills, but the Spirit [the new way of the Spirit] gives life.
\2Co 3:7 Now, if the ministry of death [Law of Moses], carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
\2Co 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit [the two are displayed as being distinct — the Law which kills {just as the first iteration of the Law — the tree of the knowledge of good and evil — killed Adam & Eve, when they ate of its fruit; and the Spirit which gives Life] have even more glory?
\2Co 3:9 For, if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
\2Co 3:10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.
Does this mean Christ sets the Law aside? No; the letters indicated a requirement of a certain spirit/attitude of heart: this “righteous requirement of the Law” (do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God — Mic 6:6) is fulfilled by those who walk in His Words/the Spirit — something the Law could not do, because it wasn’t designed to; it was to condemn men; to herd them into the pen/fold of condemnation, to “keep them”, until the faith [in Christ] was to be revealed.
.
1. “…being found in Him…”
~ Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,
~ Joh 15:2 Every branch in me… that beareth fruit
~ Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
~ Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
~ Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
~ Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you…
~ Joh 15:10 …ye shall abide in My love…
[In case you might think He is or would direct you to read the Torah and obey it for righteousness, Paul *juxtaposes* the righteousness from the Law and the righteousness through faith in Christ.]
2. “…not having a righteousness of my own…”
~ Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,
~ Joh 15:2 every branch that beareth fruit… may bear more fruit.
~ Joh 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
~ Joh 15:4 As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself… so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
~ Joh 15:5 …apart from me ye can do nothing.
~ Joh 15:7 …ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
~ Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit…
~ Joh 15:10 If ye keep My Commandments…
~ Joh 15:12 This is My Commandment — that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.
[“Against bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no Law”: the Law condemns sin, practiced by those who are walking in the flesh; THE ONLY ESCAPE IS HEEDING THE WORDS (OF SPIRIT AND LIFE) OF CHRIST, WHICH WILL TAKE YOU INTO THE SPIRIT. WHEN ANY MAN TURNS TO HIM, THE VEIL TAKEN AWAY. WHO can save you from the body of death (to which the Law of condemnation applies, since the flesh has a Law of sin, the Law of condemnation applies to it, and it alone)? “Thank God: through Christ!” — through listening to, and believing=obeying His Words: GOD works (John 5:17; 6:28, 29; Revelation 14:13) and you see His glory (John 11:40): thereby, God is your righteousness (Tsidkenu), as “it is done unto you” (John 15:7), and you “bear much fruit” (John 15:8), co-laboring with him (Exodus 32:7; 32:11 {God says the Israelites were Moses’s people whom he had brought out of Egypt; then, Moses says the Israelites were God’s people, Whom He had brought out of Egypt} John 5:17; Revelation 14:13.]
3. “…by faith that is in Christ…”
~ Joh 15:1 I am the True vine,
~ Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
~ Joh 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
~ Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
~ Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
~ Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
~ Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
~ Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments
~ Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you,
~ Joh 15:12 This is my commandment,
.
\Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
\Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1. “…being found in Him…”
~ I am the Way…
2. “…not having a righteousness of my own, which is by the Law, even that which is of the Law, ut hat which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith…”
~ I am the Truth (faith in God’s Word {Truth} = righteousness; faith in Christ’s Words = righteousness)
.
I trust you will find this helpful.
***Mic 6:6 = Mic 6:8***
Quite a discussion has been sparked here, sirs. I haven’t the time to go through it all currently, but if I’m able to find time to go over it I may join in a bit. Summaries are welcomed…
Grace,
BP
I’ll just reply John 10, and let everyone read it for themselves.
Jesus is our justification, righteousness, and perfection. Do we all agree on that? There is no way we can meet our Father’s holiness, so GOD made a Way to Him.
But atonement was also part of the OT Law; just that it was imperfect, for the blood of animals can’t really save. The attitude of the heart was and is most important, though; our confidence in Yeshua Messiah is based upon knowing him, not performance (works).
Why do most modern preachers not preach the gospel? Because knowing Jesus does not allow a false prosperity faith gospel that champions survival of the fittest and austerity measures that might have made even Darwin blush. The OT and Jesus never taught us to abandon the poor; neither is this Paul’s “fruit”; but Paul’s writings have been twisted to allow so-called christians to do whatever they want.
The Law is perfect. Jesus is perfect. Moses is imperfect. Paul is imperfect. Why follow man?
There is another side to this: what Jesus calls the Gentile “lording it over each other”. “Holier than thou” is also used to bring people into submission. Paul commands us to submit to authority instead of the Law, and even the King James English twists some of the Greek for its own convenience in this (i can cite several examples, but no need now). How can we come boldly before the Throne of Grace and be shamed by man at the same time?
I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was seven, and ran away from the cross as fast as I could when I was seventeen. According to the writer of Hebrews (most think Paul) there is no hope for me; GOD gives no second chances. But Jesus says, “Come back to Papa; His arms are opened wide!” Which is the True gospel? (Hebrews 6; Luke 15).
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
Take my word here with a grain of salt…
I went to hell after knowing Jesus, working for Jesus, fearing Jesus, loving Jesus, seeing Jesus.
I thought I was destined for destruction — no hope — because of that verse in Hebrews…
but it also says, “but I am convinced of better things concerning you, and things which accompany salvation”, and in Romans, it says branches cut off can be grafted back in. The Galatians were rescued from such a situation as described in Romans 11 — ok?
The devil can use the Bible to attack you [twisting a few verses in such a shape as to commandeer them, and make the bible a channel of the gates of hell], just like he did to Messiah; that doesn’t invalidate the words, it just gives you a false revelation by arraying a few Scriptures in a certain way, in order to put forth a false idea — seems that’s what’s happened to a lot of people.
————————
I agree; most churches are compromised by the Illuminati, etc., etc., etc.,
Love you.
**most churches = many popular brand-name churches/movements**
Yep. We can soar in the Spirit as lone rangers; but it isn’t wise. So we sing a few modern praise tunes, and then sit quietly and submissively as someone tells us their version of how it is.
Being firmly set in the outer court of the Gentiles, however (Jesus never let me leave those gates completely, even in my most severe backsliding) I eventually had to run inward from all those camped about after my rededication, wanting me to submit to them. The only place to go was the inner cour to Israel (spiritually speaking) where I found the “sea” of washing regeneration and the altar of complete burning: the picture of the refining fire (He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit AND fire). In one sense, this is going from the physical (“flesh”) realm to the soul realm. This is just to give you an idea; no use arguing about it; it’s my testimony.
From here, I am still finding the threshold of the Temple (to my heart of hearts): the Sanctuary of the Love, Joy, and Peace that passes all understanding. This is my personal view of Salvation.
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
It wasn’t soaring as a lone ranger that messed me up; a stumbling stone was cast before me by a bible-enforcer.
However, God is merciful.
Ron,
The Scripture is “God-inspired”… “breathed” by God…
1. Scripture was written as God breathed upon men… with His Breath… we currently have the same Breath breathing constantly upon us; wherefore, it is written, “the ingraft Word”, and “the Spirit is Truth”.
2. The Word is a Light; but the Spirit is the Fire that makes the Light…. we have the Fire; we have a Source of endless Light.
3. The Spirit TESTIFIES, the blood TESTIFIES, the water TESTIFIES (I recommend you watch “Water: The Great Mystery” to understand this further).. Abel’s blood cried out to God; Jesus’s blood is crying better things than Abel’s blood — it is those who listen to the blood that overcome the beast, for their testimony matches and has been informed by the blood.
Friend, get it together: the Spirit is the Witness; without Him, stuff yourself with Scripture, and it adds damnation, because they all testify against men who have gone “past feeling”, and who are not sensitive to the Spirit of Truth, nor led by Christ’s Spirit — and, so, they are not living as sons, and they cause many to stumble.
The descendants of Abraham would be as the stars…
Those who turn the many to wisdom will shine as stars…
At His return, the righteous shine forth as stars
Stars don’t NEED illumination; stars GIVE illumination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is RETARDED to think otherwise. A MAJOR cause of stumbling is stars trying to obtain light, when they ARE the light in the world!!!!!!!
We don’t clothe ourselves with Scripture; we are clothed ALREADY with the sun (Rev 12). Our lives are Scriptural — the moon reflects the sunlight in our spirits — because they are SUBMITTED/OBEDIENT/BELIEVING the same Spirit [reflecting the Light of the the SUN] that wrote the Scriptures; not because they are master biblical interlocutors! DUH!
The entire Scripture commands men to obey the Spirit, and condemns men who do not.
Dan1el,
Why does your last post and things in your other posts sound so much like:
Isaiah 14
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Sounds like too much I and me…what the spirit tells me…I hear directly from the spirit…I do not need the message of the prophets…the scripture is for spiritually retarded people…etc.
Be careful Dan.
Shalom
Yep, nuclear emanation, rather than “reflection” that was prevalent a few years ago, or “tapping into the Power”. (yuch)
The latest end-of-the-year donation appeal I am finding (as I don’t usually unsubscribe to see what the”big” ministries are up to) is looking for multi-millionaire type “partners” being given VIP status to make up for dwindling donations by us “little people”; nevermind that we are loosing our jobs and homes by the millions.
So, judgment is near, not because I want it. This Ahab-Jez star will implode very soon; not that everyone wasn’t warned.
The Son of Righteousness, by contrast, is not bound to natural law. (But our flesh is, for now. I am not Gnostic. If you & Bo could get past your “Buddhist/Torah” debate, you might find several places of agreement, also.)
In Him, Ron M.
Bo,
You have no biblical shrubbery to hide behind, because you’ve been exposed; so you resort to ad hominem attacks — is that a correct assessment that I am making, or not?
Answer the questions with Scripture. Answer #62 !! You are spreading DANGEROUS heresy.
God thinks love is genius, and OVER-ANALYZATION IS SPIRITUAL RETARDATION!!!!!!! LOL! Over-analyzers tend to be hypocritical, selfishly-ambitious, non-loving interlocutors; whereas “love builds up” vs. “knowledge puffs up”.
You are in danger, dear brother; I implore you: repent, and believe the Gospel!
God is looking for OBEYERS of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH; not remedial, scat-man/resounding-gong (and you say I’m Buddhist?) darkness-dwelling … get it together, man! God loves you! I do, too, and I hope the best for you, as for myself!
Dan1el,
No attack intended. A word to the wise is sufficient. For the record; I am not the one that is calling people names.
I notice that you want another point by point refutation of you posts. We did that once and you did not fare well. Please note that you have not addressed the passages that I bring up and show how they do not say what I say they say, but you ask me to address yours. Please be the first to quote the passages that I have used with a corresponding explanation. And by the way, the scripture does not say that YHWH is looking for the obeyers of the spirit of truth. That is a gross misinterpretation. It says “in spirit and in truth” there is a big difference. If the spirit that you listen to does not accurately speak the scripture, whose spirit is it?
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Shalom
Dan1el,
I did not say that you were a Buddhist. I said that your view is corrupted by Buddhist philosophy.
Here are the quotes:
“…but even Buddhists understand through knowledge that they ought not be dwelling in that space where knowledge is to be gained; so, they escape into their human spirits, and “dwelling in the present moment”, apart from knowledge, knowing nothing. Similarly, knowing the Law spells destruction…”-Dan1el
“Now I see where you get your philosophy. Buddhism! You have mixed a false religion with Messiah.”
“You are not accepting the things that I quote that they wrote, therefore you are in error. Buddhist error at that. ”
“You have twisted the scripture to prove your Buddhist philosophy.”
“Buddhism just doesn’t cut it with YHWH”
“OK, as long as you realize that you are not dealing with what the passages actually say, but are projecting a Buddhist/New Age image upon the Knowledge/word of YHWH.”
But I digress. How about you, one passage at time, explaining how they say what you say. Here is the first one that needs explaining:
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Give it your best shot. Who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven? How long will till a jot or tittle passes from the law? Is heaven and earth still here? What are we not to think?
Shalom
Bo,
Please remind me when that happened; I didn’t want to bother myself to refute your folly; but, I changed my mind, and am stirred.
Once again, Bo, please answer #62, according to you gloriously inept, shadow-wisdom.
Again:
The Law of Sin is in the flesh [1. Rom 7:23]; therefore, the Law ministers Condemnation [2. 2 Cor 3:9] to those who are “in the flesh” — because they have no other state than “being in sin”.
The Law could never do away with sin; nor make any man righteous [3. Gal 2:21; 4. Rom 8:3]; they could only become “just” by telling the Truth of God — that they were condemned [5. John 4:17]; and, therefore, crying out to God for deliverance from the body of sin and death [6. Rom 7:24; 7. Gal 3:21, 22], but they resisted the condemnation of Moses [8. John 5:45; 9. 8:47]’s Law [10. 2 Cor 3:9] and deceived themselves [11. 2 Tim 3:13] into thinking they were righteous through the Law [which thing was impossible, 12. Gal 2:21] — so, “GOD DID WHAT THE LAW *COULD NOT DO* BY SENDING HIS SON” [13. Rom 8:3]: He made perfect [14. Heb 10:14] saints out of men [15. Romans 8:27]; even making them a Kingdom of Priests [16. Rev 1:6; 17. 5:10], whose holiness is substantiated by the Blood; and so much that they are allowed into God’s presence [18. 1 John 1:7].
Now, you need a WHO [Messiah] to deliver you from the Body of Death, with its Law of Sin [19. Rom 7:24]. CHRIST [20. Rom 8:3] delivers man from the body of sin — because, whenever a man turns to Him, the veil is taken away [21. 2 Cor 3:16; 22. Gal 2:20] — which “veil” is the flesh [23. Heb 10:20]!
Now, as for the one who believes in Christ — with the flesh out of the picture (deadened with Christ, on the Cross [24. Gal 2:20), and those men who are walking in the Spirit [the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the Law of Sin in the body of death], Paul can say “there is, therefore, there is no condemnation” [25. Romans 8:1], because the Law condemns sin; but, there is no sin PRESENT in the man who is walking according to the Spirit’s Law of Life! He is perfect, blameless, holy, and acceptable; but not sinful (unlike ALL who are in the flesh; even those under the Law): for the man who is “in Christ”, the Law has no employment — nor is there any need for its employment, since it only was meant to condemn people, in order to bring them to Christ: the Law has done its duty, and run its course — to minister condemnation [26. Rom 8:33], since that spiritual man is holy, blameless and acceptable to God [27. Eph 1:4]; nor is there any need for the Law to teach that man to become righteous, since he is ALREADY righteous (only a FOOL could consider going back to the Law for righteousness [28. Gal 3:3], since it never brought righteousness [29. Gal 2:21], and only was meant to condemn people, anyways [30. Rom 7:24; 31. 2 Cor 3:9; 32. Gal 3:24], in order to bring them to Messiah [33. Gal 3:23,24]). The man who is already in Messiah needs no more compunction from the Law: he is a son of God, and holy as God is (IF he is obeying the Law of the Spirit [34. Rom 8:2; 35. Jas 4:12]); if not, he is condemned by the Law of Moses (if his sinful flesh were “decreasing” [36. John 3:30], the Law’s sway would also be “vanishing” [37. Heb 8:13] towards him], and must repent of idolatry [38. Eph 5:5; 39. 1Jn 5:2], and return to abiding in Christ/God [40. 1 John 2:28].
————————
Please, go ahead and make your response to every point.
I am not your referee, or else I would disqualify you both for low blows (smile).
Can you agree that Father GOD gave both the Law and Spirit? The discussion would then become how these are both fulfilled IN Christ Jesus.
My contention is not anything Paul did; it’s what came after (the license, if you will). Some would say that I am noit prospering because I refuse to kiss someone’s bishoprick; that if I only came to my senses, that I would vote one party platform or the other down the line, and then everything would be okay. This is PRECISELY what I term “another gospel” in this day and age.
In Him, Ron M.
Bo,
The lies you are spreading could mislead the sheep; that is why I am on fire about this thing — “nothing personal”.
Ron,
The heart/attitude required by the Law — [Mic 6:8] “God has shown you what He requires of you, o man… 1. do justice, 2. love mercy and 3. walk humbly with God” — can be applied to every situation that could in life that could ever present itself, even for all of eternity future: that is how the “righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled by those who walk in Christ”. If we walk in the Spirit [as man was never made to live without God in his spirit, anyways; it is an unnatural situation], we will fulfill these requirements, and be pleasing to God.
Dan1el,
You have answered nothing. What does this verse say?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Does it mean what it says or not?
Shalom
Bo,
What ever it means, it will fit in with what we know for certain is spelled out in Scripture; “the secret things belong to the LORD.”
That is my response.
Dan1el,
Can you see the difference between this:
“God is looking for OBEYERS of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH; not remedial, scat-man/resounding-gong…darkness-dwelling…”-Dan1el
And this:
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”-Y’shua
Does “OBEYERS of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH” really equal “worship the Father in spirit and in truth:”?
Shalom
Dan1el,
Your “response” is meaningless. If you cannot accept what Y’shua said, are you really His disciple?
Shalom
Bo,
#89 There’s no difference between what I said, and what Scripture says
1. Rom 1:5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the nations, for his name’s sake;
2. Joh 14:17 …the Spirit of Truth…
3. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Those who obey the Spirit of Truth are His Sons — isn’t that what God wants?
#90 My response is absolutely complete — the entire meaning of Paul’s doctrine has been revealed to you; now, all that is needed is to understand how Jesus’s statements fit in; those hidden things belong to the Lord.
Bo,
It would be easier for both of us if you just said 1. Paul was a false apostle, 2. that you didn’t believe Paul’s doctrine, and 3. chose to hold fast to Matthew’s Gospel, instead — since Paul’s position is absolutely contrary to your’s (as is utterly obvious).
You could be a “Matthean” Christian !! A whole new breed of Christian! Whattya say?
Dan1el,
Do you remember these posts from the Line of Fire?
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/07/22/dr-brown-answers-your-questions-24/#comment-62097
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/07/22/dr-brown-answers-your-questions-24/#comment-62152
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/07/22/dr-brown-answers-your-questions-24/#comment-62167
Shalom
Dan1el,
You have that exactly backwards. What the King says is law. What the servant says is to be understood in light of the King’s decrees.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Do you remember this post from the Line of Fire? the link is: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/06/16/believers-and-the-law-of-moses/#comment-59318
Dan1el,
You wrote:
I guess some people read the verses in context.
Romans 6
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Though we are not under law, we are not to continue to sin. Though there is no “obligation to obey the law” concerning salvation, YHWH’s standards have not changed. We are servants of sin unto death if we transgress the law. If we obey YHWH’s instructions it is unto righteousness. If sin still has dominion over us we are its slave. If we cannot stop sinning (transgressing the law), we are still bound by sin. We are not righteous if we do not do righteousness.(1 John 3:7)
Grace and truth. Hmmm? What did John say was the truth?
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The Father’s word is truth. Y’shua sanctified Himself by it and asked Hid Father to sanctify us through it…even us that believe the Apostles words. I wonder if we have any part to play in this sanctifying by truth process? I wonder if John says anything about it? I think that He does.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Seems like we do not magically absorb righteous and holiness. We are to purify ourselves by obeying the truth that just happens to include the Father’s words. So what about Holiness?
2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Yep! Looks like we are supposed to participate in cleansing ourselves and perfecting our holiness. Maybe, just maybe, we are supposed to read YHWH’s word and put them into practice. Righteousness and holiness just might not happen to us if we do not become doers of the word. We might just deceive ourselves, if we are not careful.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
If we let the word of YHWH be engrafted, written on our hearts, we will do it. If we just read it and go away saying that we are not under the law, we will be hearers only, and no righteousness or holiness will be produced in our lives.
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we do not think that we are supposed to keep YHWH’s torah, we will not confess our sin to Him, because we will not think that it is sin. If we do not see it as sin, He will be unable to cleanse us from unrighteousness, because we will be deceiving ourselves in thinking that we are righteous though we are not doing righteousness. We will invent our own definition of what constitutes holiness and righteousness…and we will live up to our false god’s expectations easily enough. It is so easy to create a god in our own image. That is why we need Torah to show us that we are wrong so that we can repent.
You wrote:
“Sure, 1 John says “whoever abides in Him does not transgress the Law” — but, it doesn’t say, “whoever reads the Law, and makes efforts to obey it does not transgress the Law”; it says “whoever abides in Jesus Christ”. We fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (the heart-requirement of loving mercy, doing justice and walking humbly with God — and, in actions, the pre-existent heart condition that is surrendered to God BEFORE GOD, not men, bears out) by staying with Jesus Christ, Who, Himself is the Word — the Living Torah — Who can address us in every instance; unlike the Word on the page.”
Some of your ideas were addressed above. The word that just happens to be printed on the page is supposed to be hid in our hearts so that we will not sin against YHWH. The Spirit reminds us of what we have heard/read. He does not speak of Himself.
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father has, even the Torah, are Y’shua’s. The Spirit takes what is the Son’s and shews it to us. He might even remind us of this if we accept that Y’shua really said it:
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
And the living Torah does not contradict the written Torah.
Your wrote:
“Moreover, Apostle Paul talks about the Law having been given to people who were “dead in sins and trespasses”, and “without strength”; on the other hand, the Spirit has been given to people who have been brought to newness of life in Christ.
Now, Paul can say, “be strong in the Lord and in the power of HIS MIGHT” — “for it is God Who works in you to will and to do for His good pleasure” (rather than our self-centered pleasure).”
Here are the two passages that I found where Paul talks about us being dead in trespasses and sins:
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
These seem to say that we were dead because we were disobedient to YHWH’s Torah and that Messiah forgave us and cancelled our bill of indebtedness. They do not seem to say that those that are dead in trespasses and sins have the law given to them, but that they have their trespasses of the law forgiven them. The law was just always there testifying as to our sin. It is up to us to repent of our sin. It is up to Messiah to forgive it.
As for who the Spirit is given to:
Acts 5
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
You wrote:
“I just don’t understand how people can still figure that we are under the Law.”
It is not a matter of being under the law. It is a matter of accepting the teaching of YHWH. It is a matter of not being children of disobedience. It is a matter of being doers of the word and not hearers only. It is a matter of not being a slave to sin by continuing to transgress the law. It is matter of not being carnal minded.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Those that are truly led of the Spirit keep the righteousness of the law. Those that are carnally minded cannot make themselves keep YHWH’s law. They cannot please YHWH, because they are slaves to sin. They just can’t understand.
No animosity toward you Dan1el. I just felt the need to cast down imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of YHWH, and bring them into captivity to the obedience of Messiah.
Shalom
Bo,
#93 Answer the post on this blog, here and now.
#94 Then, explain why one of his faithful [Lk 12:42] subjects is propounding on His Very Commands [1 Cor 14:37]; yet, you disagree?
Either:
1. You think Paul’s letters are filled with false doctrines; and, you choose to reject them, so that you can cling to Matthew’s account of what Jesus said.
or
2. You think Paul is true; but you are rejecting both Christ and the one He sent [John 13:20].
or
3. You think Paul is true, and what Christ said is true, but you are incorrectly understanding Paul’s doctrine; and causing “tension” between what Christ said and what Paul taught [which doctrines are Christ’s Words — unless you don’t believe Paul was telling the Truth — since he was a chosen vessel [Acts 9:15]; set for the defense of the faith/Gospel [Pp 1:17]).
If you think both Christ’s statement was valid, and Paul’s writings are valid, do you not think that you are putting them at odds with each other, when there could be found a way to make them flow together uniformly ??
The King HAS uttered His decrees — through His sent one, Paul.
Bo,
Inspect and reply to #83.
As for #95, I disagree with it, based on #83, which refutes every one of your incorrect divisions.
Dan1el and others that might be interested,
Here is a good place to begin to see how our last debate went.
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/06/16/believers-and-the-law-of-moses/#comment-59507
Shalom
Bo,
#99 Yes, deflect attention away from #83, since it dismantles any semblance of soundness in your false doctrine.
Give reply to #83
*#98
Bo,
As was shown in #83, the Law applies only to sinful flesh; never to spiritual men, since they’re already in the place the Law wants to bring them — in Christ.
Bo,
Please give a response:
The Law of Sin is in the flesh [Rom 7:23]; therefore, the Law ministers Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] to those who are “in the flesh” — because they have no other state than “being in sin”.
The Ministry of Condemnation [Law] could never make any man righteous [Gal 2:21; Rom 8:3]; nor do away with sin (actually, it exponentiated it [Rom 5:20], by exacerbating the sinfulness of the sin [Romans 7:13] in human flesh [Rom 7:23] ); men could only become “just” [Heb 12:23] by having their mouths shut [Rom 3:19] in glorifying God, confessing their sinfulness [Jos 7:19; Joh 9:24; Rom 3:7 ] (which is the Truth of God which the Law of Moses expounds upon [Joh 5:45; 2 Cor 3:9]) — that they were sinful [John 4:17]; and, therefore, they would cry out to God (together with Saul/Paul [Rom 7:24]) for deliverance from the body of death.
This crying out for deliverance is precisely the goal which the Law came to fulfill [Gal 3:21, 22] (it wasn’t inserted to make men righteous, but to humble them, and make them know their need for the Savior, whenever He came; in this sense, it is “not contrary to the Promise” [Gal 3:17, 21] — i.e.: it would push men towards receiving Christ, and the “blessedness” with which all nations would be blessed [Gal 3:8] — redemption); but, many men resisted to receive the Law’s ministry of condemnation [2 Cor 3:9], and the accusations of Moses [John 5:45; 8:47]‘s Law [2 Cor 3:9]. They deceived themselves [2 Tim 3:13] into thinking (though they were under the Law) tat they were righteous (which thing was “never possible” for the Law to many anyone righteous [Gal 2:21]). Righteousness would have made them “alive” [Gal 3:21]; but, they were yet “dead in trespasses and sins” [Eph 2:1].
Therefore, “GOD DID WHAT THE LAW *COULD NOT DO* [Gal 2:21] BY SENDING HIS SON” [Rom 8:3]: He made perfect [Heb 10:14] saints out of men [Romans 8:27]; even making them a Kingdom of Priests [Rev 1:6; 5:10], would would draw near to God; whose holiness is substantiated by faith in the effectualness of Christ’s Blood (not the Law).
Now, man needs a “WHO” [Romans 7:24] to deliver him from the “Body of Death” [Rom 7:24] (a Law can’t do it [Romans 8:3]; you need a WHO to do it), with its Law of Sin [Rom 7:24]: CHRIST [Rom 8:3] delivers man from the body of sin — because, whenever a man turns to Him, the veil is taken away [2 Cor 3:16; Gal 2:20] — which “veil” is the flesh [Heb 10:20]!
Now, as for the one who believes in Christ: with the flesh out of the picture (his flesh is deadened with Christ, on the Cross [Gal 2:20]): the Law of Life in the Spirit has set them free from the Law of sin and death in their flesh — because they BELIEVED THE WORD OF THE SPIRIT/GOSPEL.
Paul can say “there is, therefore, there is no condemnation” [Romans 8:1], because the Law is the minister of condemnation; but, there is no sin PRESENT in the spirit, where the man is walking, according to the Spirit’s Law of Life!
Such a man is perfect, blameless, holy, and acceptable [Eph 1:4]; but not sinful (unlike ALL who are in the flesh; especially those under the Law [Rom 5:20], because the Law is the strength of sin [1 Cor 15:56]).
For the man who is “in Christ”, the Law has no ministry — nor is there any need for its ministry, since it only reigns over sinful flesh, in order to bring them to Christ; for men in Christ, the Law has done its duty, and run its course — to minister condemnation [Rom 8:33].
Nor is there any need for the Law to teach that man to become righteous, since he is ALREADY righteous (according to Gal 3:3, only fools could consider going back to the Law for righteousness, since it never brought righteousness [Gal 2:21]; and its only purpose was to condemn people, anyways [Rom 7:24; 2 Cor 3:9; Gal 3:24], in order to bring them to Messiah [Gal 3:23,24]).
The man who is already in Messiah needs no more compunction from the Law: he is a son of God, holy, as God is (IF he is obeying the Law of the Spirit [Rom 8:2; Jas 4:12]); if not, he is in the flesh, and under the ministry of condemnation of the Law of Moses (if he walked in the spirit, he would be “decreasing” [John 3:30], and the Law’s ministry of condemnation would, in equal manner, be “vanishing” [Heb 8:13]), he must repent of idolatry [Eph 5:5; 39. 1Jn 5:2], and return to abiding in Christ/God [1 John 2:28].
Dan1el,
You say that the law only applies to sinful flesh. Why does it not apply to those that sin (transgress the law)? That would certainly qualify as sinful flesh even if they think that they are some sort of spiritual man? Only those that do righteousness are righteous, no matter how “spiritual” they think they are.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Do you hear really hear John or the spirit if error?
1 John 4
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
James1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Let no man deceive you. Let no spirit deceive you. Do not deceive yourself.
Shalom
Dan1el,
How can the law only apply to sinful flesh if it applied to Y’shua? Does it not apply to man…just like the Sabbath and not murdering, and not committing adultery, and not making graven images? Can the spiritual man make a graven image and be guiltless? You will answer that the spiritual man won’t do such a thing. You are correct, but neither will he defile the Sabbath or eat unclean animals or commit adultery…if he is really a spiritual man. A spiritual man, by very nature, keeps the law just like THE SPIRITUAL MAN NSMED Y”SHUA did…because it is his nature. Y’shua never argued against keeping the law…He upheld it. How can one be a truly spiritual man, like Y’shua, and argue against keeping and teaching men to keep the law?
Mark 2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man…
Matthew 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
John 11
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
Shalom
Dan1el,
1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Those that think that they are spiritual but fail to confess their transgressions of the law are not walking in the light. They are in essence saying that they do not have sin…because the law does not apply to them…and sin is the transgression of the law…at least according to the same author that wrote the above scripture. Walking in the light means to be doers of the word that we know. We deceive ourselves when we know the law and do not think that we should keep it.
Shalom
Bo,
Thank you for responding.
#99
.
1. You say that the law only applies to sinful flesh. Why does it not apply to those that sin (transgress the law)? That would certainly qualify as sinful flesh even if they think that they are some sort of spiritual man? Only those that do righteousness are righteous, no matter how “spiritual” they think they are.
Answer:
A. Men who are Christian, but obey the flesh, are on their way to destruction [Romans 8:12, 13].
B. The only opposite of “in the flesh” is “in/led by the Spirit” [8:13, 14].
C. “…if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” [Gal 5:18].
.
2. 1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Answer:
A. Why not read it in a better translation? Are you certain it is saying “transgression of the Law”? It says “lawlessness” — anomia — not “transgression of the Law”.
B. Even IF it says, “all sin is transgression of the Law”; it doesn’t mean that all transgression of the Law is sin:
i. If a man ROBS someone and BEATS them, you could say, “boy, that is a sin; I can see it clearly in the Law”.
ii. However, if a prostitute LIES [transgresses the Law of Moses] in order to save some spies of the LORD, she is not sinning in the LIE (it is transgression of the Law; but, not sin).
iii. If a King — David — enters the House of God, and eats the bread which was not lawful for him to eat [transgresses the Law of Moses], nor for those who were with him and is not in trouble for it, but cited by Yeshua as an example of righteousness (it is transgressing the Law, without sinning [Matthew 12:3-5]).
.
3. James1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Answer:
A. In context, it is speaking of the Spirit of Christ — the “Ingraft Word” — Who is the “only Lawgiver”, issuing decrees from the Spirit.
B. The proof for what I am saying is true is Jeremiah 31 — “I will write my Laws in their minds and in their hearts” [para.]
C. Also, the Apostles ministered the Word of God. Paul gave “milk; not meat” to some — as a faithful and wise steward in God’s House [Mt 24:45] — and that “Word” was a portion of Jesus, Himself (the Word was filled with substance, Christ’s Spirit).
D. This is not talking about the Law, since it would disagree with the entirety of Apostolic doctrine; therefore, the explanation given in A and B must be the only correct way of interpreting it.
#100
.
1. How can the law only apply to sinful flesh if it applied to Y’shua?
Answer:
A. Yeshua came “in the likeness of sinful flesh”; and, was “born under the Law” — an all-encompassing Law that could put to shame (shut every mouth) any of the most self-righteous people in the earth. However, for those who are born again, and led by the Spirit, they are “not under the Law” [Gal 5:18]– He, Himself, inaugurated the New Covenant [Lk 22:20] (the New and Living Way [Hebrews 10:20]): how could He not be under the Law, when He had yet to “do away with” [Col 2:14-17] the Law? He goes on to say, BECAUSE THE LAW IS JUST A SHADOW, BUT CHRIST IS THE SUBSTANCE:
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
B. Yeshua also was baptized — did He NEED to confess sins (this was part of the baptism of John [Mt 3:6])?? No; He just did it as a formalism, because of the time He was in during the unfolding of God’s plan of salvation for humanity. He was following protocol.
.
2. Does it not apply to man…just like the Sabbath and not murdering, and not committing adultery, and not making graven images? Can the spiritual man make a graven image and be guiltless? You will answer that the spiritual man won’t do such a thing. You are correct,
Answer:
A. Thanks for answering the question for me.
.
3. …but neither will he defile the Sabbath or eat unclean animals or commit adultery…
Answer:
A. As you read in Colossians 2:14-17, your accusation and judging of men who eat certain foods is unjust, since these are merely shadows, but Christ is the substance.
B. Defiling the Sabbath — it was a shadow of things to come; never reinforced in the New Covenant writings, even once. Paul says not to let any man judge me concerning the observance of a day [Col 2:14-17]
C. Adultery is obviously a sin — but, the only escape from sin is to “walk in the Spirit”, for then and only then will a man “not fulfill the lusts of the flesh” [Gal 5:16]. You are trying to apply a Law to a man in order to save him from sin; God is trying to kill the man’s flesh, and give him a new nature with a new desire, altogether — God is working in us to will and do TO PLEASURE HIM (not ourselves) [2 Cor 5:15; Pp 2:12, 13]. The opposite of pleasuring self/sin, is pleasuring God/righteousness. He works in us to have a desire to please Him by applying a new Spirit to us.
.
.4 if he is really a spiritual man. A spiritual man, by very nature, keeps the law just like THE SPIRITUAL MAN NSMED Y”SHUA did…because it is his nature.
Answer:
A. If he ever hopes to become a spiritual man, he must receive the Gospel, so that his sinful flesh can be crucified, and ONLY then will he walk in the Spirit. Having begun by hearing of faith (Spirit), will we, then, be perfected by the Law? No! That is foolishness! (Gal 3:3)
B. Spiritual men keep the “righteous requirement” — in other words, the CORE REQUIREMENT, which can be applied to every situation in this life and the next life — i.e.: “do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God”.
.
5. Y’shua never argued against keeping the law…He upheld it. How can one be a truly spiritual man, like Y’shua, and argue against keeping and teaching men to keep the law?
Answer:
A. His Apostle, Paul, (who was a special instrument [Acts 9:15], chosen to defend the Gospel [Pp 1:16]) gave “the Commandment of the Lord Jesus” [1 Cor 14:37], in all his doctrine. If you disagree with his teaching, you disagree with the Lord.
.
6. Matthew 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Answer:
A. Precisely: Jesus is the Word of God; He is the Bread of Life — therefore, Paul said he wanted to be found in Christ [from receiving Christ’s Words]; NOT to have a righteousness of HIS OWN, through the Law, but to reveal Christ [Gal 1:16]’s righteousness, Who is the hope of Glory [Col 1:27], in us [2 Cor 4:7].
.
7. Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Answer:
A. 1Pe 1:12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.
Whoever doesn’t speak according to the Gospel, has no light in them; the Light of the Glorious Gospel of God’s Son has not shined in their hearts [2 Cor 4:4].
Thanks for the response.
Dan1el,
If I were to make long and detailed argument concerning the benefits of using a calculator for obtaining the answers to math problems, and every so often I put forth a statement that I was not recommending that we should do away with math textbooks and ignore how to do the problems without the calculator, would you conclude that the math facts or formulas had no bearing on math problems? Would you even know how to use the calculator if you didn’t know the proper procedure for obtaining the correct answer? Would you go around bragging about how you have a calculator in your pocket and thus didn’t need to know math?
If Paul makes a detailed argument about how we cannot be made righteous by keeping the law, but every so often puts forth a statement that the law is not bad and that those that have accepted righteousness by faith in Y’shua should not transgress the law and that faith and grace do not do away with the law, but rather establish the law, why do you insist that Paul’s statements of clarification do not mean what they say? His “God forbid” statements are there so that we would not get the idea that the law had been done away with or that it should be ignored. He insists that if we continue to transgress the law, we are still slaves to sin and are not acting righteously. He insists that the carnal mind is what causes us to reject YHWH’s law…the very same law that he says is weak because of our flesh. He insists that those that really are walking in the Spirit will fulfill/keep that very same law.
If we are punching buttons on a calculator and not coming up with the same answers that the text book answer page has, we are not mathematicians or we have a faulty calculator. If the spirit that leads us is not causing us to keep the law of YHWH, we are not listening correctly or we have a spirit of error.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
Righteousness does not come by the keeping of the law, but those that have been made righteous by faith keep the law…if they know it. Real faith produces faithfulness. Real righteousness produces righteous actions. Faithfulness and righteousness is described in YHWH’ s instructions/law/Torah. We can be obedient children or children of disobedience…the choice is ours.
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3
6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Shlaom
Hmm, I am wondering what lexicon you are using to come up with your definition of righteousness or “righteous requirement. “Core requirement” does not appear in any of mine. The Greek word is: “dikaioma” which means: “that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law.” So the translation would go something like this:
Romans 8:4 That that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law by the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Self explanatory…don’t you think?
We covered this before. What does sin is the transgression of the law mean? The definition of sin is “transgression of the law.” Shall we use the literal meaning of “anomia”? It is “without law.” Sin is being without law. Is that not what you have been advocating? Getting rid of the law? Paul did not advocate such a thing.
Shalom
Bo,
.
1. If Paul makes a detailed argument about how we cannot be made righteous by keeping the law, but every so often puts forth a statement that the law is not bad and that those that have accepted righteousness by faith in Y’shua should not transgress the law…
Answer:
A. Paul is saying that the Law IS Holy and GOOD, and it should not be purposefully transgressed; he is also saying that the Law (leaning upon it) cannot help you — that only grace can sustain you: “it is not good for hearts to be strengthened by foods, but by grace [Heb 13:9]”. Therefore, he is teaching men to be prayerful.
B. BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. [Gal 5:16]
BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, you are free from the Law [Gal 5:18] that condemns sinful flesh. [Rom 8:2; Rom 7:24]
BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, you bear fruit of the Spirit [Gal 5:22] — against which, no Law can be made [Gal 5:23] — i.e.: no one says,
“Hey, you’re too peaceful; its really making problems for the neighborhood! Why did you treat my children with patience, and my wife with kindness and self-control??”
BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT, you will fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law [Rom 8:4]
WALKING IN THE SPIRIT is the answer God has for humanity; not Law. Man is a spirit, and has many more needs than a Law can address/provide for.
What the Law COULD NOT DO, GOD DID by sending His Son — His Son underwent a process; the end of this process is we’re perfect and holy and blameless before God.
God’s solution to sinfulness was nullifying the body of sin, atoning for sins, birthing new/holy creations, and giving (those of) us (who believed) His Spirit — and His Divine Instruction/Desire, through the Spirit (working in us both the willing and doing for His Good Pleasure [Pp 2:13] a.k.a. “the perfect Law of Liberty” [Jas 1:25]).
C. If you ask me, “but if you break one Law, where will you stop?” That question, in itself, is a return to the Law; I am called to be FREED from the Law, in order to heed the Spirit, unto righteousness — “BEING FOUND IN HIM” is righteousness; Paul DID NOT want “righteousness of [his] own that is the product of obeying the Law of Moses”.
.
2. …and that faith and grace do not do away with the law, but rather establish the law,
Answer:
A. Faith and grace establish the fulfilling of the “righteous requirement of the Law” [Rom 8:4] — “do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God” [Mic 6:8] — once again, it is done by who? “…those of us who walk in the Spirit”; and, again, by definition, those who are “led by the Spirit/in the Spirit are freed from the Law [Gal 5:18], “because they are sons of God through faith in Christ, for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” [Gal 3:26, 27].
.
3. why do you insist that Paul’s statements of clarification do not mean what they say?
Answer:
A. I have not added anything to his statements; I’m sorry to tell you, but I think it is you who is adding and subtracting.
.
4. …His “God forbid” statements are there so that we would not get the idea that the law had been done away with or that it should be ignored.
Answer:
A. No; again, you are adding and subtracting to his words in your application: “the Law is good if one uses it lawfully” [1 Ti 1:8].
B. He SPECIFICALLY says MANY TIMES that the Law is not for spiritual men [1 Ti 1:9], but carnal men, because the men who are in the flesh are in sin 100% of the time (the flesh has a Law/Principle of “sin” [Romans 7:24], whereupon the Law finds opportunity to dispense its ministry of condemnation [2 Co 3:9]. He says whoever is led by the Spirit is not under the Law [Gal 5:18] — obviously, because those who are led by the Spirit are righteous (the definition of “righteous” in the new covenant is “hearing, obeying/believing the Spirit” [Rom 4:3]); therefore, it can be understood that “the Law is not correlative to the man who is ‘being found in Him’, through faith in the Spirit, because such a man is righteous, but the Law was not made for righteous humans.”
.
5. He insists that if we continue to transgress the law, we are still slaves to sin and are not acting righteously. He insists that the carnal mind is what causes us to reject YHWH’s law…the very same law that he says is weak because of our flesh. He insists that those that really are walking in the Spirit will fulfill/keep that very same law.
Answer:
A. No; there are examples in the previous post that show examples of people who broke the Law, but were deemed righteous, even in so doing. Please look at those citations.
B. “weak because of our flesh” — yes; and, now that we’re not in the sinful flesh, but righteous because we’re in the Spirit, the Law is not for us, any longer [1 Ti 1:9], since we’re led by the spirit [Gal 5:18].
C. He doesn’t say we will fulfill the same Law; there are times when he SPECIFICALLY tells people NOT to judge others for not “observing a day” (moed) [Rom 14; Col 2:16] — and the reason he says not to allow anyone to judge me for not obeying the letters of the Law? Because the Law was nothing but a shadow; the whole point and substance was CHRIST [Col 2:17]. However, he DOES say that men who walk in the Spirit of the Law will walk in the Spirit of the Law — “do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God”, applying that spirit to all situations in life.
.
6. If we are punching buttons on a calculator and not coming up with the same answers that the text book answer page has, we are not mathematicians or we have a faulty calculator. If the spirit that leads us is not causing us to keep the law of YHWH, we are not listening correctly or we have a spirit of error.
Answer:
A. What I am saying is that YOU are the one who is coming up with different answers than the Apostle. He was set for the defense of the Gospel — this is what his writings are about: defending the Gospel/New Covenant, which is “not like the Covenant” God made with the fathers (Law of Moses).
B. The Spirit of the Law is working in men to will and do for HIS GOOD PLEASURE; that is enough [Rom 2:15] — they are fulfilling the righteous requirement of the Law [Romans 8:4] by walking in the Spirit. The SPIRIT is the solution for sin; NOT Law.
.
7. …those that have been made righteous by faith keep the law…if they know it.
Answer:
A. Again, those led by the Spirit are free from the Law; they don’t have to know it.
.
8. Real faith produces faithfulness. Real righteousness produces righteous actions. Faithfulness and righteousness is described in YHWH’ s instructions/law/Torah. We can be obedient children or children of disobedience…the choice is ours.
Answer:
A. Real righteousness doesn’t produce righteous actions; real righteous men BEAR FRUIT unto God.
B. The Torah is “do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God”
C. Obedient/Disobedient children — obey the Word of the Spirit; it is the only escape from the law of sin in the flesh: one example of “children of disobedience” is the Galatian church, who “disobeyed” the Gospel by going back to the Law of Moses (for EITHER justification [Gal 5:4] OR sanctification [Gal 3:3], it is a deal-breaker). Because “disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft” [1 Sa 15:23], Paul could say that they were “bewitched” [Gal 3:1].
.
7. Ephesians 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3
6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Answer:
A. There is no Law against walking in the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit, thereby [Gal 5:23] — those who walk in the Spirit (and NO ONE ELSE) do not fulfill the desires of the sinful flesh [Gal 5:16] — so, they are obviously neither children of wrath, nor children of disobedience. There is no law against walking in the Spirit — hearing directly from God, believing, and obeying: “being found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own which is from the Law; but righteousness which is from God through faith in Christ Jesus” [Pp 3:9]
.
8.Hmm, I am wondering what lexicon you are using to come up with your definition of righteousness or “righteous requirement. “Core requirement” does not appear in any of mine. The Greek word is: “dikaioma” which means: “that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law.” So the translation would go something like this:
Romans 8:4 That that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law by the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Self explanatory…don’t you think?
Answer:
A. I am simply using the Scripture in Mic 6:8 that defines precisely what was “deemed right so as to have force of Law” by God in His Torah.
B. Yes; walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh: it is against the lusts of the flesh that the Laws are — against walking in the Spirit (which brings about the fruit of the Spirit), there is no Law.
.
9. We covered this before. What does sin is the transgression of the law mean? The definition of sin is “transgression of the law.” Shall we use the literal meaning of “anomia”? It is “without law.” Sin is being without law. Is that not what you have been advocating? Getting rid of the law? Paul did not advocate such a thing.
Answer:
A. The writer of Hebrews said the Law was vanishing [Heb 8:13].
B. The Law is to love (“do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God” [Mic 6:8]); those who are not focusing on loving are the lawless ones.
C. Paul definitely says the Law was never made for righteous men [1 Ti 1:8].
D. You didn’t address the examples that I listed — wherein King David broke the Law, but which actions Jesus emulated (and was summarily condemned by the Pharisees for).
Thanks
*9. Ephesians 5
*10. Hmm…
*11. We covered this before.
You both AGREE that the Law is (now) written on our hearts. Same Law as always (GOD never changes… Jesus Christ the same…)
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE WRITTEN BY THE FINGER OF GOD. The entire TESTIMONY of Israel centers around the ark of the COVENANT surrounded by the tent of meeting (with GOD).
Now please look at Ezekiel 20:12,25,&37 (I don’t write it out so you can skim the entire chapter); compare this with Rev. 2:26-28, keeping in mind Rev. 2 in entirety. Now concerning righteousness, see Ezekiel 14:12-23 (to complete this entire Word in context).
This has been a drawn-out process, but you haven’t even begun to cover the @2000 years of debate about this. So, blessings and stamina to you both!
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
How about a more orderly approach to this discussion. Why don’t we each post one passage of scripture that we think is important to the discussion with a SHORT commentary explaining why we think that it is important. Then we both counter each others post with an explanation of why we think that the others idea is incorrect. Also how about if our friend Ron then comments on why he thinks either argument is weak or strong.
Shalom
Bo,
It is extremely orderly, with numbered points and lettered answers — I don’t see how it could get any more orderly.
I’m not interested in Ron’s commentary (no offense, Ron); I’m interested at getting to the BOTTOM of this issue.
Dan1el,
One passage at a time. One rebuttal. One response to the rebuttal. No long posts. That is what I am talking about. For the sake of clarity and to reduce the complexity of responding to numerous passages and points all at once. You present a passage. I present a passage. We respond to each others posts. We respond to each others responses. Then we go on to the next passage…etc.
Shalom
Bo,
If you would, please simply respond.
It is already in the order you are suggesting. This is not our private website to hold what ever discussions we please. Let’s get down to the points — I have responded to you in full. Tell me where you think I have misunderstood Paul’s doctrine.
No offense taken, Dan.
It would be Bryan’s job to comment on strength of debate, if he wants.
I’m just trying to show you places you agree. Hopefully, many will read this blog, and use it as steppingstones (rather than doctrine) to their own wisdom revelation.
In Him, Ron M.
It appears as though we have finally reached the bottom of the issue.
Dan1el,
What is the bottom of the issue that you speak of?
Shalom
Bo,
The bottom of the issue = Christians are entirely freed from the Law of Moses.
;)
Dan1el,
Wow, I didn’t know you had such authority and power…to just declare it as done…in spite of the scripture. Let me see…since your stated presupposition is that we are not to go by the scripture and since you do not accept Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts as scripture, but you use scripture to try to prove we shouldn’t go by scripture, why should we trust your logic or your interpretation of scripture.
Do you remember these exhortations from Dr. Brown just 5 months ago? Have you sought help from mature believers in your area yet? Do you see your arrogancy in thinking that you are the judge and jury?
Lets start here:
I posted:
“How about you, one passage at time, explaining how they say what you say. Here is the first one that needs explaining:
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Give it your best shot. Who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven? How long will till a jot or tittle passes from the law? Is heaven and earth still here? What are we not to think?”
I also wrote:
“You have answered nothing. What does this verse say?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Does it mean what it says or not?”
You wrote:
Do you remember this:
Do you remember this:
How do you expect to be taken seriously when you have such little respect for the scripture that you can invent your own meanings of words instead of accepting what they straight forwardly say?
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for the reply.
.
1. Dan1el,
Wow, I didn’t know you had such authority and power…to just declare it as done…in spite of the scripture.
Answer:
A. If you see them, please list the faults you have found with the explanation of Paul’s doctrine (posted again for you, at the end of this post) — which shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that believers are not to be under the Law — is faulted.
.
2. Let me see…since your stated presupposition is that we are not to go by the scripture
Answer:
A. When did I say that we are *NEVER* to consult Scripture? I said that it could be idolatry — cutting one off from God, thereby. I said that we can do BY NATURE the things we are told to do in the Scripture (because the same Spirit that informed those men is informing us) if we were obedient to the Spirit; otherwise, we could also read the commands in Scripture PRAYERFULLY, and push into them that way.
B. If I said that the Spirit led me to fulfill many things Scripture compels me to do, how is it that I am leading people to go in a direction contrary to Scripture?
.
3. and since you do not accept Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts as scripture,
Answer:
A. I am still in the process of studying whether they are to be trusted as “infallible” Scripture; however, that doesn’t mean I don’t think Jesus said either those very words, or something very similar to those words written, in them — especially when all three witnesses and the epistles agree (such as I showed you with Paul’s and John’s doctrines, at times citing Mt, Lk & Mk).
B. One of the main problems I have with Luke vs. Matthew is their accounting of the end-times (Mt 24 vs. Lk 21) — they are *seemingly* in disagreement; however, even that, I have not finished studying, yet (because things can have multiple meanings).
.
4. but you use scripture to try to prove we shouldn’t go by scripture,
Answer:
A. I’m not saying people shouldn’t go by Scripture — but, that Scripture should LEAD YOU TO JESUS [John 5:39, 40]; if a person is not with Jesus through reading Scripture (they’re just in Scripture), there is no power to live holy, just a form of godliness that denies its power [2 Tim 3:5]. I said that, conversely, there are people who do not need to go through Scripture to get to Jesus. I’ve known some (who live holy, reverent, ministry-driven lives), myself.
.
5. why should we trust your logic or your interpretation of scripture.
Answer:
A. Instead of attempting to assassinate my character to win the debate, just be forthcoming, and say that you have no ability to reply to the exposition of Paul’s doctrine presented to you — just humble yourself, and repent of your false doctrines that could potentially destroy both your and other peoples’ lives.
.
6. Do you remember these exhortations from Dr. Brown just 5 months ago? Have you sought help from mature believers in your area yet? Do you see your arrogancy in thinking that you are the judge and jury?
Answers:
A. I live at a ministry; I seek help/advice from others all the time. I’ve also asked and received advice from Eric Gilmour and Bryan Purtle. Actually Bryan Purtle has a ministry in my area, and I’ve been meaning to get to it — thanks for reminding me — the fact is that I’ve never met a believer who knows the Scripture too well, so I am hesitant to trust/engage with just anyone (usually, they get confounded at the fact that the rapture is not real — I cannot waste my time with such discussion).
B. I said that the debate was done in order to get you to come back to it, since you were not answering.
.
7. Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions
July 22, 2011
Post 12 from Dr. Michael L Brown
Dan1el,
It is very sad to read these posts of yours in which you exalt your limited, human thinking powers over the holy Word of God. In other words, just because you find something to be impossible to reconcile, you claim it cannot be the Word of God. But who appointed you the judge and jury? I personally do not have the slightest problem with any of the texts you mentioned and find zero contradictions of any real nature in them.
What is clear to me is that either you still have not come to saving faith or, if you have, you are playing with dangerous fire. Either way, I’m very concerned for your soul.
Post # 25 from Dr. Michael L Brown
Dan1el,
That’s the whole point I’m making. As you set yourself up as the judge over God’s Word, it IS affecting your walk with the Lord, and that’s what concerns me — for your sake.
Post # 31 from Dr. Michael L Brown
Dan1el,
My only goal is to help you, so the most important thing is not what you do or don’t post here — it is no trouble at all — but what you think and believe. We are here to help you, not hurt you! That being said, it’s probably best to work things through with mature believers in your region, as I previously suggested. Again, I only want to see you strong in the Lord.
Answer:
A. Who is to say men cannot change? How do you know that I’m not “more” “accepting” of Matthew, Mark and Luke, now (which, I am) than before? I’ve considered Dr. Michael Brown’s fruit, and weighed his words, accordingly. That doesn’t mean I think they are infallible Scripture, but I do allow myself to see more benefit in them than I had, previously.
B. Please do not deflect the argument away from the central question of Paul’s doctrines (which were the commandments of the Lord Jesus).
.
8. Lets start here:
I posted:
“How about you, one passage at time, explaining how they say what you say. Here is the first one that needs explaining:
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Give it your best shot. Who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven? How long will till a jot or tittle passes from the law? Is heaven and earth still here? What are we not to think?”
Answer:
A. In giving/finding the truth about something/answers, there are the positive and negative aspects to consider — i.e.: in order to draw nearer to finding the true answer for a difficult or obscure question (which, if Matthew and Paul’s Epistles are both to be regarded as equally weighty — which is what I am trying to uphold, here — it would seem that Jesus’s statements and Paul’s are in contradiction — therefore, it is slightly problematic/difficult/obscure), one may inspect both the aspects (positive and negative) — what the answer definitely IS and/or what the answer definitely IS NOT.
In reading and understanding Paul’s Doctrine (which was the Lord’s, as he i.) spoke the Lord’s Command, was ii.) an instrument of Jesus, and iii) set for the defense of the Gospel), it becomes CLEAR what Jesus’s statements are NOT.
From this point (knowing what it CANNOT be), we can re-examine His statements (in light of the the rest of the Testimony) to arrive at what their meaning (not simply surface-level — “let him who has ears, hear”; “let him who has wisdom, calculate”; “let the reader understand”) and truly was: this will yield greater understanding; will help people understand where/how Jesus’s Words fit into the larger picture of Scripture.
The aforementioned is what is a desirable end.
Relentlessly “jamming” the “triangle” of “Believers must observe Torah” into the “square-shaped hole” of Paul’s doctrine (based on a single Scripture, at that) is nonsensical.
.
9. I also wrote:
“You have answered nothing. What does this verse say?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Does it mean what it says or not?”
You wrote:
Bo,
What ever it means, it will fit in with what we know for certain is spelled out in Scripture; “the secret things belong to the LORD.”
That is my response.
Answer:
A. I stand by it; as I’ll explain momentarily.
.
10. Do you remember this:
Daniel,
Can you see the difference between this:
“God is looking for OBEYERS of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH; not remedial, scat-man/resounding-gong…darkness-dwelling…”-Dan1el
Answer:
A. What I said was a 1 Cor 13 statement — “without love, you are a resounding gong; you make an indistinguishable sound”: a scat-man is saying indistinguishable sounds, and a resounding gong is just a word-for-word copy of 1 Cor 13 — those who walk in the Spirit fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (“do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God”, which is borne out, again, in Scripture, [Gal 5:6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.)
.
11. And this:
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”-Y’shua
Does “OBEYERS of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH” really equal “worship the Father in spirit and in truth:”?
Answer:
A. I still haven’t said anything contrary to that passage.
.
12. Do you remember this:
“Spiritual men keep the “righteous requirement” — in other words, the CORE REQUIREMENT, which can be applied to every situation in this life and the next life — i.e.: “do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God”.”-Dan1el
Hmm, I am wondering what lexicon you are using to come up with your definition of righteousness or “righteous requirement. “Core requirement” does not appear in any of mine. The Greek word is: “dikaioma” which means: “that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law.” So the translation would go something like this:
Romans 8:4 That that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law by the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Self explanatory…don’t you think?
Answer:
A. I already answered the question; the “righteous requirement” is Micah 6:8.
.
13. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you have such little respect for the scripture that you can invent your own meanings of words instead of accepting what they straight forwardly say?
Answer:
A. I noticed that in the entire list you just posted, there wasn’t a singular reference to the exposition of Pauline Doctrine concerning whether believers are to practice the Law, or not. You ranged to and fro, covering many other topics, but never touched what you were asked to.
Just rebut the exposition — which explains, fully, how believers are not under the Law: for your benefit, I will post it again.
===================================================
The Law of Sin is in the flesh [Rom 7:23]; therefore, the Law ministers Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] to those who are “in the flesh” — because they have no other state than “being in sin”.
The Ministry of Condemnation [Law] could never make any man righteous [Gal 2:21; Rom 8:3]; nor do away with sinful flesh or sin. Actually, the Law proliferated sin [Rom 5:20], by exacerbating the sinfulness of the sin [Rom 7:13] in human flesh [Rom 7:23]. Under Law, men could only become “just” [Heb 12:23] by allowing the Law to “stop their mouths” from all self-justification [Rom 3:19], as the Law led them to glorify God by confessing their sinfulness [Jos 7:19; Joh 9:24; Rom 3:7 ] (which “I have sinned” IS the “Truth of God” which the Law of Moses expounds upon [Joh 4:17; Joh 5:45; 2 Cor 3:9]); and, finding this inescapable Law of Sin in their flesh, the plan was that they would cry out to God — together with Saul/Paul [Rom 7:24] — for deliverance from the body of death; and receive Messiah’s redemption, whenever He was revealed.
Now, this “crying out for deliverance” is precisely the goal for which the Law was intended [Gal 3:21, 22] (this is “using the Law lawfully” [1 Tim 1:8] — i.e.: the Law of Moses wasn’t “inserted” into the Abrahamic Covenant [Gal 3:19] to create righteous men; but to “stop their mouths” [Rom 3:19 — “make them stop justifying themselves”], and make them KNOW themselves (that they are SINFUL) and their NEED for the Savior (whenever He would appear, that they might cling to Him); in this sense, the Law “is not contrary to the Promise” [Gal 3:17, 21]: the Law would cause proliferation of the Promise through condemning men, and COMPELLING them towards the correct decision of receiving Christ, (and the “blessedness” with which all nations would be blessed [Gal 3:8] — redemption).
However, many men refused to “receive” the Law’s ministry — of Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] (some have a gift for healing, some prophecy, some teaching; the Law had a ministerial gift of CONDEMNATION) — stopping their ears [Ps 58:4; Mat 3:7] (instead of their mouths) from hearing the (Truth) “accusations of Moses[Joh 5:45; 8:47]‘s Law” [2 Cor 3:9]. Men deceived themselves [2 Tim 3:13] into thinking that (though they were under the Law) they were “righteous” (which thing was “never possible” [Gal 3:21] {if the Law would’ve made them righteous, it would have made them “alive” [Gal 3:21] (which is why Jesus said He was the “resurrection” [Joh 11:25]); but, they were still “dead” in “trespasses and sins” [Eph 2:1]}: if the Law made men righteous, they wouldn’t have needed Christ to die on the Cross.} [Gal 2:21]).
Therefore, “GOD DID WHAT THE LAW *COULD NOT DO* [Gal 2:21] BY SENDING HIS SON” [Rom 8:3]: He made perfect [Heb 10:14] saints out of men [Rom 8:27]; even making them a Kingdom of Priests [Rev 1:6; 5:10], would would draw near to God; whose holiness is substantiated by [faith in] the efficacy of Christ’s Blood (not the Law), and God’s Work [Eph 2:10].
As you can see, man needs a “WHO” [Rom 7:24] to deliver man from their “Body of Death” [Rom 7:24] (a Law can’t do it [Rom 8:3]; you need a WHO to do it), with its Law of Sin [Rom 7:24]: CHRIST [Rom 8:3] delivers man from the body of sin — because, “whenever a man turns to Him, the veil is taken away” [2 Cor 3:16; Gal 2:20] — which “veil” is the flesh [Heb 10:20]; this occurs, because we are “baptized into His death” [Rom 6:3] and “crucified together with Christ” [Gal 2:20], as we are “one new man in Christ” [Gal 3:28] (Christ is the singular “Seed” to whom the Promise of Abraham pertained — therefore, it also applies to all who join themselves to Him {“joint-heirs” [Rom 8:17; ]}; for, they are “one new man”).
Therefore, for the one who believes in Christ — with the flesh out of the picture (his flesh is deadened with Christ, on the Cross [Gal 2:20]) — “the Law of Life in the Spirit has set them free from the Law of Sin and Death in their flesh” [Rom 8:2] (and the accompanying Law whose Ministry is Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9]) — because they BELIEVED THE WORD OF THE SPIRIT/GOSPEL. Believing is “beginning in the Spirit” [Gal 3:3; 3:5], and “obeying” the “Law of the Spirit” [Rom 8:2] (also known as “the Law of Faith” [Rom 3:27]), and partaking in the New Covenant, rather than being “cut off” from the New Covenant [Gal 5:4] benefits [Gal 5:2].
Therefore, Paul can say “there is, therefore, there is no condemnation” [Rom 8:1], because the Law is the minister of condemnation; but, there is no sin PRESENT “in the Spirit”, where the believer is walking (according to the Law of the Spirit of Life/Law of Faith)! The believer is a perfect saint; blameless, holy, and acceptable [Eph 1:4] (but not sinful — unlike ALL who are in the flesh; especially those under the Law [Rom 5:20], because the Law is the strength of sin [1 Cor 15:56]), because GOD DID WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO BY SENDING HIS SON [Rom 8:4] — make saints out of men.
For the man who is “in Christ”/in the Spirit, the Law has no ministry — nor is there any need for its ministry, since it only rains condemnation over sinful flesh TO THE END THAT IT MIGHT BRING THEM TO CHRIST. For men who are already “in Christ”, the Law has already done its duty, and run its course (to minister condemnation [Rom 8:33], in order to bring him to Christ [Gal 3:23, 24).
For men who are “in Christ”, there no need for the Law to teach that man how to become righteous [Rom 2:14-29], since he is ALREADY righteous (according to Gal 3:3, only fools could consider going back to the Law to learn righteousness, since it never made anyone righteousness [Gal 2:21], but only increased sin [Rom 5:20]; and its only purpose was to condemn people, anyways [Rom 7:24; 2 Cor 3:9; Gal 3:24], in order to bring them to Messiah [Gal 3:23, 24]). The man who is already in Messiah needs no more Legal Pedagoguery [Gal 3:25]: he IS a son of God; having put on Christ.
IF the believer is obeying the Law of the Spirit [Rom 8:2; Jas 4:12], he is free from the Law of Sin in his bodily members [Rom 8:2], and the accompanying Ministry of Condemnation [Law of Moses].
IF he is not obeying the Law of the Spirit, he is in the flesh [Rom 8:13], and being ministered to by the minister of condemnation (the Words of Moses [Joh 5:45]: all sin is transgression of the Law).
IF a believer is spiritual, he is (as it were) “decreasing” [Joh 3:30], and the Law’s ministry of condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] is, in equal manner, “vanishing” [Heb 8:13] (as the Law pertains only to his “decreasing” flesh, it is also waning in its opportunity to minister punishment/condemnation — since, “against walking in the Spirit/the fruit of the Spirit, there is no Law” [Gal 5:23]; and, “those who walk in the Spirit [according to its Law] do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh {Law of Sin}” [Gal 5:16] {it is solely against the fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh — i.e.: “sin” — that the Law speaks}, they are “not under the Law {since the Law condemns sin, and there is no sin being committed to condemn}” [Gal 5:18]).
Some believers must repent of idolatry [Eph 5:5; 1 Joh 5:2], and return to eating Jesus Christ (instead of eating “foods sacrificed to idols” [Rev 2:14], they need to eat “the Lamb of God [Joh 1:29; 6:51-53], sacrificed to God” (as it were), as the means of serving [Rom 7:6] the Father [Rev 2:14]: those would, thereby, commence abiding in Christ/God [John 15:7; 1 Joh 2:28].
Indeed, no one in all history — to prove the point that the Law could never be kept, nor is it to be kept, today, by believers in Christ — ever could keep the Law:
Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Historically speaking, “going down the alley of ‘Law'” never made men righteous — therefore, God send His Son to do that — and, it won’t work, today, either.
Dan1el,
Allow me to go further. Let’s talk about Rahab.
You wrote:
I already wrote:
“You conveniently leave off: “for sin is the transgression of the law.” This is the definition of sin. You need to look at the whole verse and the context instead of attempting to prove a point that is not really in the passage. It is impossible for “not all breaking of the law is sin” to be true if John is correct in saying that: “sin is the transgression of the law.” There are times when YHWH does not impute our sin upon us, but it is still sin to transgress the law…period.”
I also wrote:
“Those that think that they are spiritual but fail to confess their transgressions of the law are not walking in the light. They are in essence saying that they do not have sin…because the law does not apply to them…and sin is the transgression of the law…at least according to the same author that wrote the above scripture. Walking in the light means to be doers of the word that we know. We deceive ourselves when we know the law and do not think that we should keep it.”
And your wrote:
Just because a sin is not held against someone or that is is overlooked or that it is forgiven, does not mean that it is not sin. Here is the doctrine:
Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
2 Corinthians 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
So sin is still sin even if it is not imputed unto us.
Hebrews 11
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
That Rahab received the spies in peace when she realized that YHWH was real and was about to destroy her city was an act of faith. Here is what James says:
James 2
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Rahab was justified by works. Her faith produced works. It was real. James says that she “received the messengers and sent them out another way.” That was her faith in action. Did you notice that neither Paul or James says anything about her lie? Did you notice that her faith produced actions that proved her faith. She acted upon what she knew. Her lie is never said to be righteousness. It is still sin. It was overlooked, not only by YHWH, but by Paul and James in their recollection of her. She did the best she knew how to do at that point in her life. She didn’t know what the law said about false witness. I wonder if she found out later and repented.
Your concept is at odds with the scripture once again. Rahab was not “declared righteous for lying,” as you put it, but was justified by the works that she did…and in spite of her lie.
Shalom
Bo,
.
1. Dan1el,
Allow me to go further. Let’s talk about Rahab.
You wrote:
“As for “all sin is also breaking of the Law” — true; but not all breaking of the Law is sin….Rahab was declared righteous for lying [to name a few: context is everything])”
and
“Yes, sin is transgression of the Law, but not all transgression of the Law is sin.
Can you explain why Rahab is quoted as a woman of faith (and heir of righteousness) for LYING, which is against the Law?”
I already wrote:
“You conveniently leave off: “for sin is the transgression of the law.” This is the definition of sin. You need to look at the whole verse and the context instead of attempting to prove a point that is not really in the passage. It is impossible for “not all breaking of the law is sin” to be true if John is correct in saying that: “sin is the transgression of the law.” There are times when YHWH does not impute our sin upon us, but it is still sin to transgress the law…period.”
I also wrote:
“Those that think that they are spiritual but fail to confess their transgressions of the law are not walking in the light. They are in essence saying that they do not have sin…because the law does not apply to them…and sin is the transgression of the law…at least according to the same author that wrote the above scripture. Walking in the light means to be doers of the word that we know. We deceive ourselves when we know the law and do not think that we should keep it.”
And your wrote:
“A. Why not read it in a better translation? Are you certain it is saying “transgression of the Law”? It says “lawlessness” — anomia — not “transgression of the Law”.
B. Even IF it says, “all sin is transgression of the Law”; it doesn’t mean that all transgression of the Law is sin:
i. If a man ROBS someone and BEATS them, you could say, “boy, that is a sin; I can see it clearly in the Law”.
ii. However, if a prostitute LIES [transgresses the Law of Moses] in order to save some spies of the LORD, she is not sinning in the LIE (it is transgression of the Law; but, not sin).”
Just because a sin is not held against someone or that is is overlooked or that it is forgiven, does not mean that it is not sin. Here is the doctrine:
Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
2 Corinthians 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
So sin is still sin even if it is not imputed unto us.
Hebrews 11
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
That Rahab received the spies in peace when she realized that YHWH was real and was about to destroy her city was an act of faith. Here is what James says:
James 2
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Rahab was justified by works. Her faith produced works. It was real. James says that she “received the messengers and sent them out another way.” That was her faith in action. Did you notice that neither Paul or James says anything about her lie? Did you notice that her faith produced actions that proved her faith. She acted upon what she knew. Her lie is never said to be righteousness. It is still sin. It was overlooked, not only by YHWH, but by Paul and James in their recollection of her. She did the best she knew how to do at that point in her life. She didn’t know what the law said about false witness. I wonder if she found out later and repented.
Your concept is at odds with the scripture once again. Rahab was not “declared righteous for lying,” as you put it, but was justified by the works that she did…and in spite of her lie.
Answer:
A. First and foremost, you didn’t even consider the better translations that simply say “lawlessness” — it doesn’t specifically say anything about Moses’ Law. When Jesus declared people “lawless”, he said that they lead you in a “broad path”; those who “walk in the Spirit” do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (do not walk in the broad path), therefore, as touching those who are being “led by the Spirit”, again, they are “not under Law” [Gal 5:18].
B. You didn’t touch the other person I mentioned — King David — whom even Jesus said was “guiltless” in his deeds; NOT “forgiven”.
Your statement, therefore, that God would have had “forgiven” David of something, doesn’t apply — and, whether it applies to Rahab, is more likely to fall under the same category as David’s transgressions of the Law which were not sins (based on David’s non-sinful transgressions of the Law).
Therefore, so far, you have proven nothing; and, again, you have yet to touch the exposition of Paul’s doctrine — I wish you would address it.
*A. First and foremost, you didn’t even consider the better translations that simply say “lawlessness” — it doesn’t specifically say anything about Moses’ Law. When Jesus declared people “lawless”, he said that they lead you in a “broad path”; those who “walk in the Spirit” do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (do not walk in the broad path), therefore, as touching those who are being “led by the Spirit”, again, they are “not under Law” [Gal 5:18], fulfill the righteous requirements of It [Rom 8:4] **and, therefore, would not fall under the category of those to whom Christ would deem “lawless”.**
Dan1el,
I forgot this passage in regard to lying in the discussion about Rahab.
Romans 3
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
You see, if Paul were to lie in order to extend YHWH’s truth, he would still be judged a sinner. The same goes for Rahab. If our unrighteousness (law breaking) somehow commends righteousness, it is still righteous for YHWH to judge us. If your supposed spirit led walk allows you to continue to break the law, you are still sinning and you are still judged as a transgressor of the law…a sinner. If the law has no bearing, how will YHWH judge the world?
Shalom
Dan1el,
How do you know what the better translation is? How is lawlessness different than living a lawbreaking life. How is lawbreaking different than transgressing the law?
Shalom
Bo,
@ 127
That isn’t the context in which Rahab is called a woman of “faith”. Name another person from the Heb 11 list who sinned in their action of faith. She is actually counted as NOT dying together with those who were “disobedient” [Heb 11:31] — she is indemnified by that.
@128
Don’t add to Scripture — it doesn’t say “transgression of Law” (which words evoke the idea of a Mosaic Law); it says “lawlessness”. The word lawlessness existed in the Greek world long before Jesus’s Apostles were sent into the Greek world, so they would’ve known what it was or was not.
EVEN IF the “lawlessness” spoken of in 1 John is the “lawlessness” spoken of in Matthew 7, it isn’t speaking of those who walk in the Spirit, since they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh [Gal 5:16].
Bo,
Now that Rahab is indemnified, I would invite you to speak of the other person — King David — that I mentioned, who also broke the Law of Moses, without it being counted as “sin”.
Bo,
All sin (seasonal [Heb 11:25], self-gratifying [Gal 5:16] pleasure [2 Tim 3:4], rather than God-gratifying/pleasing [Pp 3:13]) can be defined in (breaking) the Law; but, not all “breaking of the Law” is “sin” — since not all who break the Law are doing it as though “loving seasonal, self-gratifying pleasure”.
I would be curious to know if others that have read the preceding posts are on the same page as Dan1el on the Rahab issue. Was her sin called righteousness? Was she justified by the works of helping the spies and her sin of lying still sin, but overlooked?
Shalom
Bo,
Why call it a “sin”, if it was merely “transgressing the Law” — as David “transgressed the Law” with impunity, as well?
Dan1el,
I did not add to scripture. I quoted word for word KJV. Here it is again…cut and pasted directly from a Bible program.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Here are some examples of where the Greek word “anomia” is used in the Septuagint.
Exodus 34
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression(anomia) and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Leviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions(anomia) in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Job 7
21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression(anomia), and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Psalms 32
1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression(anomia) is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psalms 32
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions(anomia) unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Psalms 51
13 Then will I teach transgressors(anomia) thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Psalms 103
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions(anomia) from us.
Isaiah 1
28 And the destruction of the transgressors(anomia) and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Is that enough, Dan1el? Or do you still want to argue that “anomia” has to be translated “lawlessness”? It seems that the Jews used the word to mean transgression extensively. The KJV translators did well to express it in 1 John 3 as they did. Your argument that not all transgression of the law is sin is faulty no matter how one translates the verse anyway…for sin is the transgression of the law and sin is lawlessness…and lawlessness is the state of disregarding the law.
Shalom
Bo,
That is fine; thanks for the extensive explanation.
Dan1el,
Matthew 12
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Do you think that what the disciples did, what David and his men did, and what the priests did on the sabbath in the above passage are the same? Are they all equally correct or incorrect?
Shalom
Dan1el,
Since it is fine, do you now agree that sin is the transgression of the law?
Shalom
Bo,
Yes, sin is transgressing the Law; but not all transgression of the Law is sin.
Christ said, “you not would have condemned the guiltless” — calling these people “guiltless” [Mat 12:7].
Dan1el,
When the passage says, “sin is the transgression of the law” it means that any transgression of the law is sin.
Try this:
1 John 4
16 …God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
“God is love” is the same kind of statement “sin is the transgression of the law” is.
Let’s substitute a little and see what happens.
…sin is transgression of the law; and he that dwells in transgression dwells in sin. This is John’s logic. There is no such thing as transgression of the law that is not sin. The “is” is an “=” sign. Sin and transgression of the law are the same. That there are some transgressions or sins that are not held against us is another thing all together. If we dwell in YHWH we dwell in love. If we dwell in love we dwell in YHWH. If we dwell in sin, we dwell in transgression of the law. If w dwell in transgression of the law, we dwell in sin.
Please answer post so that we can continue to discuss David’s bread eating.
Shalom
Dan1el,
That should have been:
Please answer post 136 so that we can go on.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Here is what Paul says about sin and the law.
Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 5
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The knowledge of sin comes by the law. Without the law we do not know what is sin. When we are in ignorance we can sin and it is not held against us, but once we know better it brings death. James says:
James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Transgressing the law and sin are the same thing according to Paul, James and John.
It is not that you can transgress the law and not sin, it is that the sin is not held against us depending on the situation.
Matthew 12
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Do you think that what the disciples did, what David and his men did, and what the priests did on the sabbath in the above passage are the same? Are they all equally correct or incorrect?
Shalom
Bo,
.
1. Please answer post so that we can continue to discuss David’s bread eating.
Answer:
A.I believe I gave my answer for #136…
—
#138
Bo,
Yes, sin is transgressing the Law; but not all transgression of the Law is sin.
Christ said, “you not would have condemned the guiltless” — calling these people “guiltless” [Mat 12:7].
—
…already: Jesus classified them all as “guiltless”; in that, they were all tied together in the same bundle (guiltless).
.
2. There is no such thing as transgression of the law that is not sin.
All “sin” is indulging in seasonal [Heb 11:25], self-gratifying [Gal 5:16] pleasure [2 Tim 3:4], rather than gratifying/pleasing God [Pp 3:13], and “such things” [Gal 5:21] are condemned by the Law; but, not all “breaking of the Law” is defined as “sin”.
Since not all who break the Law are doing it as though “loving seasonal, self-gratifying pleasure”, not all breaking of the Law is “sin”.
Was David “indulging in seasonal, self-gratifying pleasure” ?
Was Rahab “indulging in seasonal, self-gratifying pleasure” ?
Were the Priests “indulging in seasonal, self-gratifying pleasure” ?
Obviously not, because Jesus wouldn’t have said, “they were guiltless — just as my disciples are guiltless”.
Sorry for the delay
Bo,
Only the grace of God is useful against “indulgence of the flesh”; therefore, it says, “put on Christ, and make no provision for the flesh” — “be continually filled with the Spirit” — for, ONLY those who “walk in the Spirit do not indulge the lusts of the flesh” [Gal 5:16].
.
1. The knowledge of sin comes by the law. Without the law we do not know what is sin. When we are in ignorance, we can sin and it is not held against us, but once we know better it brings death. James says:
Answer:
A. I’m pretty sure Adam knew that he sinned.
B. When Adam sinned, he died.
C. Adam was spoken to directly from God, and he transgressed the commandment [the commandment was not on paper — not “pen and ink” [2 Joh 1:12; 3 Joh 1:13] — but, in Spirit [Joh 6:63; Rom 7:6), and was naked. This is the same situation we are in: we are told to serve in spirit, not letter; and, if someone is transgressing the Commands personally spoken to us, we will end up naked [2 Cor 5:3; Rev 3:17; 16:15].
.
2. James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Transgressing the law and sin are the same thing according to Paul, James and John.
It is not that you can transgress the law and not sin, it is that the sin is not held against us depending on the situation.
Answer:
A. No; he said the same as John — sinning CAN BE defined in the [breaking of] Law; but not all breaking of Law is sin; it doesn’t work both ways.
B. Incorrect; Jesus didn’t say “their sin wasn’t held against them”; He said they were “GUILTLESS” — I already responded to this idea of your’s: Rahab was listed with others who had not sinned in their acts of faith, and was set apart from the group who died in “disobedience”.
C. David ate the shewbread which was NOT LAWFUL — he broke the Law, but was “guiltless”.
Dan1el,
Where do you get this definition for sin? “indulging in seasonal,self-gratifying pleasure”
Have you looked up the Greek word for guiltless/blameless in Matthew 12? It is only used there. It is not the same as any of the other words in the NT that are translated innocent/blameless/guiltless/unreproveable/righteous/just/justified. The one in Matthew 12 is literally “not the author” or “not the causer” or “not resposible.”
The priests that defiled the sabbath by offering the prescribed sacrifices or circumcising an 8 day old boy were not the causer of it needing to be done…YHWH was via His commandments. David was unrighteously being persecuted. He was unable to acquire the bread without the priest giving it to him. He was guiltless/blameless in the sense that he was not the author of the situation. The sin was not lain to his charge, but it was still sin because it was a transgression of the law. Somebody was responsible…just not David.
The moral of the story is that we should not condemn those that cannot help their situation. Paul says basically the same thing.
1 Corinthians 7
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
If we are in a situation that CANNOT be changed (not just would be inconvenient to change) we should not worry that we cannot keep the Sabbath. If we can change the situation so that we can obey YHWH’s instructions we should do it, because the fault falls to us if we do not. It is better to be a servant to YHWH in every area of our lives if possible than to be a servant to men. We have been bought with a high price, we should do our best to live up to every word of YHWH our redeemer.
Shalom
Dan1el,
You have used the story of Rahab to twist the truth that is everywhere attested to in the scriptures. My explanation to you takes the whole of scripture into consideration. Your explanation is full of what you want to be true and is not in accordance to what has been written.
Shalom
Bo,
.
1. Where do you get this definition for sin? “indulging in seasonal,self-gratifying pleasure”
Answer:
A. These are just a few descriptions of sin from Scripture; I’d listed the Scriptures before:
All “sin” is:
indulgence of the flesh[Col 2:23]
indulging in seasonal pleasure [Heb 11:25]
self/flesh-gratifying [Gal 5:16]
loving of pleasure rather than God [2 Tim 3:4]
Jesus said the Pharisees were full of self-indulgence [Mat 23:25]
she who lives in indulgence is dead while she lives (alienated from the Life of God) [1 Tim 5:6]
.
2. The priests that defiled the sabbath by offering the prescribed sacrifices or circumcising an 8 day old boy were not the causer of it needing to be done…YHWH was via His commandments.
Answer:
A. Great — and there are those whose “deeds are done in God” [John 3:21]; these are those who break the Law, and are not sinning. God cannot sin, nor is He tempted with sin; when God told them to circumcise on that day, He wasn’t sinning — in like manner, those whose deeds are done in God are not sinning. This is precisely what I am saying — that those who walk in the Spirit MIGHT inadvertently be breaking some Law, but that they are doing “deeds done in God”, and are not sinning [indulging in fleshly desires].
.
3. David was unrighteously being persecuted.
Answer:
A. This excuse didn’t work for Saul. When he was under duress, and sacrificed the animals — which was breaking the Law — he got in trouble, BECAUSE he was stubborn [1 Sa 15:23], sinning by unfaithfulness [1 Ch 10:13]; and, later, he it was also shown that he was indulging in the boastful pride of life [1 Sa 15:24] — loving the praise of man [John 12:43] — which is an selfish “indulgence” [Col 2:23].
.
4. He was unable to acquire the bread without the priest giving it to him. He was guiltless/blameless in the sense that he was not the author of the situation. The sin was not lain to his charge, but it was still sin because it was a transgression of the law. Somebody was responsible…just not David.
Answer:
A. Jesus never said anyone else was responsible for any sin in that instance, friend; don’t add to the Word.
.
5. The moral of the story is that we should not condemn those that cannot help their situation. Paul says basically the same thing.
1 Corinthians 7
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
Answer:
A. Actually, the two situations are not correlative.
B. The “moral of the story” was — and always is — “live in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh”.
.
6. If we are in a situation that CANNOT be changed (not just would be inconvenient to change) we should not worry that we cannot keep the Sabbath. If we can change the situation so that we can obey YHWH’s instructions we should do it, because the fault falls to us if we do not.
Answer:
Ai. No one under the Law could keep the Law; it wasn’t meant to be kept, but to condemn those who tried to keep it, to show them that they needed a Savior — Jesus. We have gone over this point over and over and over.
Aii. We are NOT to get our instructions (as servants) from a peice of paper (neither did Adam), but the Spirit is to inform us [Rom 7:6] — if we are intimate with Him, we will hear His Word.
B. You have one part right: CONTEXT.
i. If you are seeking to serve God (not self), and you are not living to serve yourself, and you fail to keep some things the Law says to keep (maybe observance of a day, etc.,), that is okay, because you are already living in the One to Whom those things pointed.
ii. Depending on the context OF THE PLACE OF SOMEONE’S HEART (spirit), the breaking of the Law is not a sin — i.e.: if there is no wicked intention, and the man is living to please God the best of his knowledge.
.
7. It is better to be a servant to YHWH in every area of our lives if possible than to be a servant to men. We have been bought with a high price, we should do our best to live up to every word of YHWH our redeemer.
Answer:
A. I understand; however, if in seeking to “serve God”, you are disobeying Apostolic Doctrine (i.e.: “don’t judge people for not observing a sabbath, or a day” [2:16]) — not just “having your faith to yourself and God” [Rom 14:22] — you are not doing good, and could possibly destroy (as the Judaizers did to the Galatians, and were beginning to do to the Roman Christian) the Work of God [Eph 2:10].
Bo,
.
1. You have used the story of Rahab to twist the truth that is everywhere attested to in the scriptures. My explanation to you takes the whole of scripture into consideration. Your explanation is full of what you want to be true and is not in accordance to what has been written.
Answer:
A. Not in the slightest — it is absolutely in accordance with Matthew 12: I think you and I both know who is twisting the Truth (not me), and who is propounding “sincere milk Words”.
B. On the contrary, your explanation flies in the face of every Apostolic Doctrine, as has been demonstrated to you.
.
2. Please, if you are willing, show me the fault you have with the explanation of Paul’s Apostolic Doctrine that believers are not under the Law.
Bo,
.
1Question:
Have you looked up the Greek word for guiltless/blameless in Matthew 12? It is only used there. It is not the same as any of the other words in the NT that are translated innocent / blameless / guiltless / unreproveable / righteous / just / justified.
The one in Matthew 12 is literally “not the author” or “not the causer” or “not resposible.”
1 Answer:
A. Incorrect;
ἀναίτιος
anaitios
an-ah’ee-tee-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G159 [G159 – causing] (in the sense of G156 [crime]); innocent: – blameless, guiltless.
…it looks more like “not causing/authoring a crime” — hence: innocent, blameless, guiltless.
David did not sin, though he transgressed the Law; neither did Rahab — she was listed together with others whose faith was never counted as sin; she would’ve stood out among the bunch, if her breaking of the Law counted as a sin (which, it did not — just as David’s breaking of the Law wasn’t sin [wasn’t “selfish indulgence”]).
Dan1el,
The passages you list do not define sin. You have invented a definition by cutting and pasting non-cohesive statements. Your whole post is not worth answering. It is a desperate grasping at straws.
338 anaitios an-ah’-ee-tee-os
from 1 (as a negative particle) and 159
AV-blameless 1, guiltless 1; 2 (This means that it is only in the NT two times and is translated in the KJV once as blameless and once as guiltless. The first is Mat. 12:5 and the second is in 12:7)
Now we look up 1 and 159 to find out the literal meaning.
1 A, a alpha; first letter of the Greek alphabet; alpha, as pref. (1) negative
159 aitios ah’-ee-tee-os
1) that which is the cause of anything resides, causative, causing
1a) the author
AV-author 1; 1 (This means that the root word is only used once in the NT. Here it is:
Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he became the author (159) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The meaning of the word that is translated loosely as “guiltless” or “blameless” is “not the author” or “not responsible.” It does not mean that no sin was committed. It means that the one committing the sin is not to be blamed for it.
Shalom
It is a shame that no one reading these posts will help this dialogue. If only Dan1el and I could get some objective feed back as to the strength or weakness of our arguments, we could get out of this rut. Of course there may be no one reading any longer, as it is a fruitless endeavor at this point.
Dan1el,
You wrote:
The above is a compilation of different sins. They are not the definition of sin. They all fall under the definition of sin…”transgression of the law.”
Here are the three definitions of sin in the NT:
1) Sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)
2) Sin is knowing to do good and doing it not. (James 4:17)
3) Sin is doing something that you do not know for sure is right to do. (Romans 14:23)
The first definition speaks for itself. The second definition is more broad and imprecise, but we know that the law is good. (Rom. 7:12-13) If we know it we ought to do it. The third speaks of going against ones conscience. Our conscience is informed by many things…our family, our culture, our church, our friends, our schooling, and what we read. This is the main reason that most Christians think that it is wrong to keep YHWH’s commandments or that it is right to not keep them.
Their conscience has been formed by flawed philosophy, contemporary culture, and tantalizing teaching. They have been brainwashed. We all have. The scripture directs us to renew our minds so that we can be transformed/converted in our minds/souls. (Romans 12:2; Psalm 19:7) We are to let the scripture inform our consciences as to what is acceptable and not acceptable instead of going with the flow of culture, even church culture.
The “NT” is replete with statements on being obedient to YHWH and His Torah, but we read them with preconceived ideas that come from a vantage point that is weighted heavily against such ideas. We have been taught that to keep the commandments is trying to earn salvation by works. It is not, unless you are. We have been taught that fulfill means that it is accomplished and need not be done again. It doesn’t, unless we are speaking of prophetic announcements. We still ought to not to murder even though Messiah fulfilled commandment #6.
Messiah is the embodiment of all of YHWH’s commandments…the Torah made flesh. He is the perfect example of always doing the good He knows to do…and He even knows all that is good to do. His life is the all the information our conscience needs…all it should accept as the guide for right and wrong. And whatever else he did and said and was the example of, He kept all of YHWH’s commandments. He taught everyone to keep all of them. He is the greatest in the kingdom. (Mat. 5:19) If He broke one or taught us to break one, He is relegated to least in the kingdom. If He by His Spirit teaches us to break even the smallest, He loses His status as King. It is absurdity to think that YHWH’s Spirit would do such a thing.
Here is a progression in the scripture of summarizations of YHWH’s requirements of us.
Deuteronomy 10
12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Micah 6
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
None of these negates one other commandment. They are summaries. We are not really living up to them if we are breaking the smallest commandment. When we break YHWH’s commandments we are not
1 ) Fearing Him
2 ) Walking in His ways
3 ) Serving Him
4 ) Loving Him
5 ) Doing justly
6 ) Loving mercy
7 ) Being humble
8 ) Loving our neighbor
It is very simple.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Loving YHWH and our brothers is proven by our commitment to walking in YHWH’s commandments. No summarization eliminates even one of the smallest commandments. The summerizations are the big picture. Commandment keeping is where the rubber hits the road.
Shalom
The whole Bible, not just the “NT”, is about loving each other as YHWH loves us. All the commandments hang on the two greatest commandments which are both about loving each other and Him how He loves us. Those two do not replace the others for they are part and parcel with the others. The others are the details on how we are to act in love toward YHWH and each other…at least that is what John says.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[When we love YHWH and keep his commandments, we know that we are acting in love toward His children. That is what it says in verse 2. Might I emphasize, “AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.” Keeping YHWH’s commandments and them not being a bummer to us is what loving YHWH is. That is what verse 3 says. Might I emphasize, “KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.” We are supposed to love to keep His commandments. That is what having them written on our hearts means.]
Why is it that most of Christianity finds it grievous to keep YHWH’s commandments…when they haven’t even tried them yet? Why is it that they think they are loving each other and YHWH, but are failing to keep YHWH’s commandments?
They have failed to look into the Bible for their definition of love. They think love means being nice or having a warm feeling about someone. They almost never think of keeping the commandments as love. This is a foreign concept to them on practical basis. It is mandatory on a Biblical basis.
Now to be fair, there are only a couple of handfuls of commandments that most sincere Christians do not keep. (They might not keep more of them if their situation was different or they were living in a different culture or time period.) They are generally the little ones, but not all the forsaken commandments are of little importance in loving YHWH and each other. And as time goes on they are tossing out more and more.
Keeping the Sabbath is one of the 10. It ranks up there with not committing adultery and not murdering. It demonstrates which Elohim we serve with our time…by keeping time His way. It demonstrates our love for Him and His ways when we follow His example and His son’s example…and simply submit to His direct statement…and humbly accept His gift of a day off. If our earthy boss told us not to come to work a certain day each week, would we stubbornly show up insisting that it doesn’t matter which day we take off?
How is it love toward YHWH to keep the Sabbath that he insists upon? It is honoring our Heavenly Father. It is dieing to self. It is putting His ideas above our own and our culture’s ideas. It is obeying His commandments which He equates with love. That ought to be good enough for those that love Him.
Here is a small one: Tassels. It just might be the smallest commandment. So why is it so hard to do? Why do we need a reminder to keep the commandments of YHWH? I guess we don’t need them if we are always mindful of all of YHWH’s commandments to do them, but we are not, as evidenced by our Sabbath breaking and sexual sin and hateful words and dietary lusts. (Num. 15:37-40) Why does YHWH want us to be different…to look silly? Did you ever hear of having the faith of a little child? Humility is a mandatory thing.
Sabbath and tassels are a very big and a very small commandment that, in a very practical way, prove our love, devotion, loyalty and commitment to YHWH. They do not have any moral or logical reason behind them. They are simple childlike obedience tests. They are signs to YHWH and the world that we belong to Him and that we will do anything for Him that He asks of us. They are love toward our Elohim and our brothers in a very powerful way.
So even the smallest commandment is about love. YHWH’s Spirit would not direct us to break them or ignore them.
Shalom
Bo,
1. The passages you list do not define sin. You have invented a definition by cutting and pasting non-cohesive statements. Your whole post is not worth answering. It is a desperate grasping at straws.
Answer:
A. I am not desperate at all; just stay calm.
B. Sin “just happens” to be transgression of the Law — but the flesh has a Law of Sin, in and of itself; “sin” is to indulge in the evil self-centered desires (centered on the pride of life, desire of flesh or eyes). The “Law” is what comes along APART from the desires and those who indulge in them, themselves, to condemn those who commit these “sins” — i.e.: there are “criminals”, who do crimes, and hurt others; there are “laws” that came about after these things were recognized, and there are “police” — how are you homogenizing the sinner with his inward law of sin (effective with or without the Law) and the Law?? Romans 2:12 says there have been sins done “without the Law” — what do you call those, if sin, strictly-speaking, is “breaking the Law”?
C. You make the same error when saying believers must obey the Law of Moses: the Law of Sin was present without the Law being present (the Law only exacerbated what was a pre-existent condition[Rom 2:12; 7:24] — unless you’re saying that human beings had eternal life before they knew the Law {which is an insupportable argument}); the Law of the Spirit of Life [Rom 8:2] to obey within them [Pp 2:12, 13], with or without the Law being present.
.
2. 338 anaitios an-ah’-ee-tee-os
from 1 (as a negative particle) and 159
AV-blameless 1, guiltless 1; 2 (This means that it is only in the NT two times and is translated in the KJV once as blameless and once as guiltless. The first is Mat. 12:5 and the second is in 12:7)
Now we look up 1 and 159 to find out the literal meaning.
1 A, a alpha; first letter of the Greek alphabet; alpha, as pref. (1) negative
159 aitios ah’-ee-tee-os
1) that which is the cause of anything resides, causative, causing
1a) the author
AV-author 1; 1 (This means that the root word is only used once in the NT. Here it is:
Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he became the author (159) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The meaning of the word that is translated loosely as “guiltless” or “blameless” is “not the author” or “not responsible.” It does not mean that no sin was committed. It means that the one committing the sin is not to be blamed for it.
Answer:
A. Yes, they authored no sin: from them, issued no sin. Who is the author of the priests’ sins??? GOD (God forbid)??? God cannot sin, nor is He tempted with sin. You need to answer this question — I’ve asked it, before, and you failed to reply.
FOR BETTER OR WORSE, RICHER OR POORER, IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH, ‘TIL DEATH MERGES US WITH THE ONE IN HEAVEN.
If you understand our Marriage Covenant with GOD, it all becomes so much easier. Please study Ephesians 5 carefully. Jesus also endorses this in Revelation in His exhortation to the Ephesian Church (the first to be acknowledged) when He says, “RETURN TO YOUR FIRST LOVE.” You can both find agreement in Ephesians.
When you mess with my wife, you’re messing with me. Can’t you understand that this is the way it is with the Bridegroom and His bride? Consider Romans 3:28,29 about who is truly a Jew. Ephesians considers this extensively, as also Messiah in His proclamation to the Churches when He says, “the synagogue of Satan… those who call themselves Jews, but aren’t…”
Consider that GOD gave the Law FOR the flesh: but the flesh is unruly; we can’t tame it by our own actions, no matter how hard we try. But the Spirit within us, the Marriage Covenant, can lead us to the perfection we desire, by Love alone. We aren’t lying Rahabs: the scarlet thread has brought us to Salvation; and, like Mary Magdalene, we are smitten, and are changed.
Consider 1 Corinthians 9:21: “being not without law to GOD, but under the law to Christ”: but the Father and Son are One, the Father being greater, as Isaiah says: “To whom is the Arm of the LORD revealed?”
Dan, that’s why I asked if you were an ‘outlaw’ or ‘in-law’. If you’re IN the Kingdom. you’ll want to please your Husband, the Head of the Church. Whether male of female, we can come to understand this.
I’m reading everything, sometimes several times. So my comments don’t get lost in the debate, they are #s: 1,7,10,12,17,23,29,31,44,47,53,58,61,63,68,71,77,84,111,&116.
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
Your “please your husband” argument is its own executioner:
“You died to the Law to be joined to Another — Christ”
Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers–for I am speaking to those who know the law–that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we SERVE IN THE NEW WAY OF THE SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE OLD WAY OF THE WRITTEN CODE.”
Jesus said, “I and the Father are One.” Paul didn’t say it; I didn’t say it. Elohim is a plural concept of GOD; do you agree?
BECAUSE the Father and Son are One, their brides MUST be one: Israel and the Church. The Gentiles were granted “liberty” from some of the statutes and ordinances, but never “liberty” to live in sin and be saved. In fact, there are many who say that Jesus (and Paul’s) commandments are even stricter than OT Law!
You and Bo can argue Deuteronomy vs. Galatians the rest of your lives and get nowhere. I’m not following Moses or Paul; I’m following Yeshua Messiah, the Only One to bring us to Father God.
You have no trouble understanding the fallibility of Moses; yet you seem to cling to the infallibility of Paul. This may be where the Gentile Church has made a covenant with death rather than Life. This is what Bryan needs to discuss, but hasn’t so far.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
Did you answer my question about what the disciples’, the priests’ and David’s actions were equal? If you did I missed it. Did they all break the law?
Shalom
Dan1el,
.
1. The above is a compilation of different sins. They are not the definition of sin. They all fall under the definition of sin…”transgression of the law.”
Answer:
A. Well, there are many ways to describe something — one doesn’t necessarily* nullify the other. However, sin existed long before the Law existed. Romans 2:12 says there were sins committed apart from Law — and Law came LONG after sin.
Sin “crashes into the Law”; however, the two are different things, altogether.
The sin arises from base human desires — desire of the body, desire of the eye, and pride of life. Those DESIRES are Laws in and of themselves; the Law of Moses (which the Law of Sin is at odds with) is another story, altogether.
The Law is an outward assembly of do’s and don’ts’s… people try to use the Law to control THEMSELVES (desires, thoughts, actions). Their SELVES are one entity; the Law is another — sin is not “breaking the Law”. Since sin existed before the Law did, sin cannot* be “transgression of the Law” — or else, what was is called when there was no Law?
In a sort of secondary way (or tertiary), sin an be called “transgression of the Law”, but primarily, sin is something that preceded Law (the Law of Moses is not needed for sin to be committed).
,
2. Here are the three definitions of sin in the NT:
1) Sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)
2) Sin is knowing to do good and doing it not. (James 4:17)
3) Sin is doing something that you do not know for sure is right to do. (Romans 14:23)
The first definition speaks for itself. The second definition is more broad and imprecise, but we know that the law is good. (Rom. 7:12-13) If we know it we ought to do it. The third speaks of going against ones conscience. Our conscience is informed by many things…our family, our culture, our church, our friends, our schooling, and what we read.
Answer:
A. You missed a very big source of information, Bo — you didn’t even mention God speaking to us: He informs us of many things which we could not have known, before. Such is prophecy; such is word of knowledge, etc.,
This lets me know that you are lacking in your understanding of the New Covenant.
Verses On God’s Informing
\Isa 30:21 and thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it; when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
\Jer 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden THINGS THAT YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN.
\Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I WILL WRITE IT ON THEIR HEARTS. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
\1Jn 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And THE SPIRIT IS THE ONE WHO TESTIFIES, because THE SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH.
[read it in ESV or ASV; it will say the Spirit is THE Truth; not “is Truth”, or “True”]
\Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, HE SHALL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH: for he shall not SPEAK from Himself; but WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THESE SHALL HE SPEAK: and He shall DECLARE UNTO YOU THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME.
It appears as though you have overlooked a terribly important factor in what forms the “conscience”, and what “informs” the mind. How could you overlook such a large thing? Are you going to admit you are wrong, now? No; of course not! You’ll keep on talking, even though you know you’ve lost the debate. You still haven’t even TOUCHED the exposition of Pauline doctrine block; I’m still waiting for that.
.
3. This is the main reason that most Christians think that it is wrong to keep YHWH’s commandments or that it is right to not keep them.
Answer:
A. Actually, it is the opposite: it is BECAUSE people want to please God that they agree with Paul that they are not under the Law of Moses any longer: if they were, the Law could exacerbate their sinfulness, and cause sins to proliferate.
B. Christians think they’re not under the Law, because they understand the Pauline Epistles’s points.
.
4. Their conscience has been formed by flawed philosophy, contemporary culture, and tantalizing teaching. They have been brainwashed. We all have. The scripture directs us to renew our minds so that we can be transformed/converted in our minds/souls. (Romans 12:2; Psalm 19:7) We are to let the scripture inform our consciences as to what is acceptable and not acceptable instead of going with the flow of culture, even church culture.
Answer:
A. As I’ve shown, this is not a correct assumption.
B What renews and cleanses the mind?
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,
The WATER of the WORD. The WATER testifies, remember 1 John???? The WATER is not in a book; therefore, it says, “serve in newness of spirit; not oldness of letter”.
You really need to repent; your views are so antithetical to Scripture, it is alarming. What is worse is that you won’t change your mind, because you are stubborn and set in your ways; no matter how many times I disprove you, you refuse to acknowledge it over and over. You have proven nothing, so far.
.
5. The “NT” is replete with statements on being obedient to YHWH and His Torah
Answer:
A. No; it really isn’t. You have yet to touch the Pauline Doctrine Exposition. Why aren’t you addressing it. Please do tell.
.
6. but we read them with preconceived ideas that come from a vantage point that is weighted heavily against such ideas.
Answer:
A. Yes; it is called a “sound theological view”, as opposed to your dangerous and unsound one.
.
7. We have been taught that to keep the commandments is trying to earn salvation by works. It is not, unless you are.
Answer:
A. Nope; even trying to keep them for progressing in the Spirit is to be a “FOOL” [Gal 3:3]. An answer for this has been provided to you numerous times.
.
8. We have been taught that fulfill means that it is accomplished and need not be done again. It doesn’t, unless we are speaking of prophetic announcements. We still ought to not to murder even though Messiah fulfilled commandment #6.
Answer:
A. Let’s talk about Paul’s doctrine. Why? He was set for defense of the GOSPEL. He will explain to us what the Gospel IS, and what it is NOT. Please, let us begin to talk about the exposition you’ve been offered over and over and over again.
.
9. Messiah is the embodiment of all of YHWH’s commandments…the Torah made flesh.
Answer:
A. He walks in the Spirit of Torah — “do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God”; and will cause others to do the same.
.
10. He is the perfect example of always doing the good He knows to do…
Answer:
A. He was “born under the Law”; we are not.
B. Following your line of reasoning, since He was circumcised, we all need to get circumcised; Gal 5 disproves your theory, and entire line of reasoning, here.
.
11. and He even knows all that is good to do. His life is the all the information our conscience needs…
Answer:
A. Yes; His Spirit testifies, His Blood, and His Water. I would highly recommend you to watch, “Water: The Great Mystery” for a greater understanding on the “testifying” of the Water.
.
12. all it should accept as the guide for right and wrong. And whatever else he did and said and was the example of, He kept all of YHWH’s commandments.
Answer:
A. Again, He was “born under the Law”; we are “freed from the Law”.
.
13. He taught everyone to keep all of them. He is the greatest in the kingdom. (Mat. 5:19) If He broke one or taught us to break one, He is relegated to least in the kingdom.
Answer:
A. You have yet to touch any one of Paul’s doctrines; you keep harping on one idea in Matthew, in total disregard for the further revelation set forth by the man chosen for that job — for defending the Gospel.
B. I would like you to try to match these statements up with Paul’s doctrine, please. Please present this alongside Pauline doctrine.
.
14. If He, by His Spirit, teaches us to break even the smallest, He loses His status as King. It is absurdity to think that YHWH’s Spirit would do such a thing.
Answer:
A. He ALREADY taught to break it — He said that He would not give marriage certificates. That is breaking the Law.
B. He APPROVED of David’s breaking of the Law.
C. He APPROVED of the Priest’s breaking of the Law.
.
15. Here is a progression in the scripture of summarizations of YHWH’s requirements of us.
Deuteronomy 10
12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Micah 6
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
None of these negates one other commandment. They are summaries.
Answer:
A. You’re linking Jesus’s statements with other Scriptures — great — however, you’re linking them with the Old Covenant commandments; we are told “serve in newness of Spirit; not oldness of the letter”.
B. Link Jesus’s statements with Paul’s New Covenant theology, please. Show them side-by-side.
.
16. We are not really living up to them if we are breaking the smallest commandment.
Answer:
A. Apostle Paul seems to have a VERY different view than your’s,
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.
.
17. When we break YHWH’s commandments we are not
1 ) Fearing Him
2 ) Walking in His ways
3 ) Serving Him
4 ) Loving Him
5 ) Doing justly
6 ) Loving mercy
7 ) Being humble
8 ) Loving our neighbor
It is very simple.
Answer:
A. You are breaking His Commandment by resisting the Gospel — just as the Galatians “disobeyed” the Truth.
.
18. 1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Answer:
A. Jesus tells us God’s Commandments. The Spirit doesn’t speak from Himself; He speaks whatever He hears. Those are the Commandments of God.
19. Loving YHWH and our brothers is proven by our commitment to walking in YHWH’s commandments.
No summarization eliminates even one of the smallest commandments. The summerizations are the big picture. Commandment keeping is where the rubber hits the road.
Answer:
A. Apparently, Apostle Paul — who was set for the defense of the Gospel — disagreed with your logic, according to the Scripture aforementioned.
.
20. The whole Bible, not just the “NT”, is about loving each other as YHWH loves us. All the commandments hang on the two greatest commandments which are both about loving each other and Him how He loves us. Those two do not replace the others for they are part and parcel with the others. The others are the details on how we are to act in love toward YHWH and each other…at least that is what John says.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[When we love YHWH and keep his commandments, we know that we are acting in love toward His children. That is what it says in verse 2. Might I emphasize, “AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.” Keeping YHWH’s commandments and them not being a bummer to us is what loving YHWH is. That is what verse 3 says. Might I emphasize, “KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.” We are supposed to love to keep His commandments. That is what having them written on our hearts means.]
Answer:
A. “His Commandments” are His Words HE SPEAKS TO US
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye may love one another.
In accordance with Scripture, “serve in newness of Spirit; not the oldness of Letter”, Jesus’s Spirit will be speaking to us — not from Himself; He will be bringing us Truths from Jesus — and, it is THOSE “Commandments” we are to abide in.
B. This is becoming more and more clear: you mentioned, before, how you thought that certain things informed and formed the mind and conscience; in that list, you were missing the largest part that informs: God’s Spirit. Here, you missed it, again. I hope this will help you understand.
.
21. Why is it that most of Christianity finds it grievous to keep YHWH’s commandments…
Answer:
A. You are not perceiving what the Commandments are — they are given by the Spirit, as you were just shown: “serve in newness of Spirit” + “I will put My Laws in their heart”.
B. Failing to keep Torah is not Covenant-breaking; failing to OBEY THE GOSPEL is Covenant-breaking (2 Cor 13:5; Gal 5; Rom 11) : I am beginning to wonder whether you have the Spirit of God in you, at all.
.
22. when they haven’t even tried them yet? Why is it that they think they are loving each other and YHWH, but are failing to keep YHWH’s commandments?
Answer:
A. They listen to the Apostle Paul’s doctrines — the same ones you refuse to discuss.
B. I’m still waiting for you to have a discussion with me on Pauline Doctrine — I’d like you to make a decision about it. Either you refuse him as an Apostle, or you disagree with my understanding of it that God gave me. I’d really like to see you approach it.
.
23. Now to be fair, there are only a couple of handfuls of commandments that most sincere Christians do not keep. (They might not keep more of them if their situation was different or they were living in a different culture or time period.) They are generally the little ones, but not all the forsaken commandments are of little importance in loving YHWH and each other. And as time goes on they are tossing out more and more.
Answer:
A. The Commandments in the New Covenant are not the same [Col 2]; nor is the place we are supposed to get those Commandments from, the same — serve in new way of the Spirit; not the old way of the letter”.
B. I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.
.
24. Keeping the Sabbath is one of the 10.
Answer:
A. Paul didn’t teach that it needed to be kept; he taught the opposite, and he said that it was a TYPE and SHADOW of Christ.
.
25. It ranks up there with not committing adultery and not murdering.
Answer:
A. Are you listening to Apostle Paul, who defends the Gospel [Pp 1:16], and issues the Commands of Lord Jesus [1 Cor 14:37], or your own understanding ?
We’ll finish the rest, later, if the Lord’ wills.
Bo,
I’ve answered mountains of questions from you — NOW, I ask you to answer me. Show me the faults you find with the following:
The Law of Sin is in the flesh [Rom 7:23]; therefore, the Law ministers Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] to those who are “in the flesh” — because they have no other state than “being in sin”.
The Ministry of Condemnation [Law] could never make any man righteous [Gal 2:21; Rom 8:3]; nor do away with sinful flesh or sin. Actually, the Law proliferated sin [Rom 5:20], by exacerbating the sinfulness of the sin [Rom 7:13] in human flesh [Rom 7:23]. Under Law, men could only become “just” [Heb 12:23] by allowing the Law to “stop their mouths” from all self-justification [Rom 3:19], as the Law led them to glorify God by confessing their sinfulness [Jos 7:19; Joh 9:24; Rom 3:7 ] (which “I have sinned” IS the “Truth of God” which the Law of Moses expounds upon [Joh 4:17; Joh 5:45; 2 Cor 3:9]); and, finding this inescapable Law of Sin in their flesh, the plan was that they would cry out to God — together with Saul/Paul [Rom 7:24] — for deliverance from the body of death; and receive Messiah’s redemption, whenever He was revealed.
Now, this “crying out for deliverance” is precisely the goal for which the Law was intended [Gal 3:21, 22] (this is “using the Law lawfully” [1 Tim 1:8] — i.e.: the Law of Moses wasn’t “inserted” into the Abrahamic Covenant [Gal 3:19] to create righteous men; but to “stop their mouths” [Rom 3:19 — “make them stop justifying themselves”], and make them KNOW themselves (that they are SINFUL) and their NEED for the Savior (whenever He would appear, that they might cling to Him); in this sense, the Law “is not contrary to the Promise” [Gal 3:17, 21]: the Law would cause proliferation of the Promise through condemning men, and COMPELLING them towards the correct decision of receiving Christ, (and the “blessedness” with which all nations would be blessed [Gal 3:8] — redemption).
However, many men refused to “receive” the Law’s ministry — of Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] (some have a gift for healing, some prophecy, some teaching; the Law had a ministerial gift of CONDEMNATION) — stopping their ears [Ps 58:4; Mat 3:7] (instead of their mouths) from hearing the (Truth) “accusations of Moses[Joh 5:45; 8:47]‘s Law” [2 Cor 3:9]. Men deceived themselves [2 Tim 3:13] into thinking that (though they were under the Law) they were “righteous” (which thing was “never possible” [Gal 3:21] {if the Law would’ve made them righteous, it would have made them “alive” [Gal 3:21] (which is why Jesus said He was the “resurrection” [Joh 11:25]); but, they were still “dead” in “trespasses and sins” [Eph 2:1]}: if the Law made men righteous, they wouldn’t have needed Christ to die on the Cross.} [Gal 2:21]).
Therefore, “GOD DID WHAT THE LAW *COULD NOT DO* [Gal 2:21] BY SENDING HIS SON” [Rom 8:3]: He made perfect [Heb 10:14] saints out of men [Rom 8:27]; even making them a Kingdom of Priests [Rev 1:6; 5:10], would would draw near to God; whose holiness is substantiated by [faith in] the efficacy of Christ’s Blood (not the Law), and God’s Work [Eph 2:10].
As you can see, man needs a “WHO” [Rom 7:24] to deliver man from their “Body of Death” [Rom 7:24] (a Law can’t do it [Rom 8:3]; you need a WHO to do it), with its Law of Sin [Rom 7:24]: CHRIST [Rom 8:3] delivers man from the body of sin — because, “whenever a man turns to Him, the veil is taken away” [2 Cor 3:16; Gal 2:20] — which “veil” is the flesh [Heb 10:20]; this occurs, because we are “baptized into His death” [Rom 6:3] and “crucified together with Christ” [Gal 2:20], as we are “one new man in Christ” [Gal 3:28] (Christ is the singular “Seed” to whom the Promise of Abraham pertained — therefore, it also applies to all who join themselves to Him {“joint-heirs” [Rom 8:17; ]}; for, they are “one new man”).
Therefore, for the one who believes in Christ — with the flesh out of the picture (his flesh is deadened with Christ, on the Cross [Gal 2:20]) — “the Law of Life in the Spirit has set them free from the Law of Sin and Death in their flesh” [Rom 8:2] (and the accompanying Law whose Ministry is Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9]) — because they BELIEVED THE WORD OF THE SPIRIT/GOSPEL. Believing is “beginning in the Spirit” [Gal 3:3; 3:5], and “obeying” the “Law of the Spirit” [Rom 8:2] (also known as “the Law of Faith” [Rom 3:27]), and partaking in the New Covenant, rather than being “cut off” from the New Covenant [Gal 5:4] benefits [Gal 5:2].
Therefore, Paul can say “there is, therefore, there is no condemnation” [Rom 8:1], because the Law is the minister of condemnation; but, there is no sin PRESENT “in the Spirit”, where the believer is walking (according to the Law of the Spirit of Life/Law of Faith)! The believer is a perfect saint; blameless, holy, and acceptable [Eph 1:4] (but not sinful — unlike ALL who are in the flesh; especially those under the Law [Rom 5:20], because the Law is the strength of sin [1 Cor 15:56]), because GOD DID WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO BY SENDING HIS SON [Rom 8:4] — make saints out of men.
For the man who is “in Christ”/in the Spirit, the Law has no ministry — nor is there any need for its ministry, since it only rains condemnation over sinful flesh TO THE END THAT IT MIGHT BRING THEM TO CHRIST. For men who are already “in Christ”, the Law has already done its duty, and run its course (to minister condemnation [Rom 8:33], in order to bring him to Christ [Gal 3:23, 24).
For men who are “in Christ”, there no need for the Law to teach that man how to become righteous [Rom 2:14-29], since he is ALREADY righteous (according to Gal 3:3, only fools could consider going back to the Law to learn righteousness, since it never made anyone righteousness [Gal 2:21], but only increased sin [Rom 5:20]; and its only purpose was to condemn people, anyways [Rom 7:24; 2 Cor 3:9; Gal 3:24], in order to bring them to Messiah [Gal 3:23, 24]). The man who is already in Messiah needs no more Legal Pedagoguery [Gal 3:25]: he IS a son of God; having put on Christ.
IF the believer is obeying the Law of the Spirit [Rom 8:2; Jas 4:12], he is free from the Law of Sin in his bodily members [Rom 8:2], and the accompanying Ministry of Condemnation [Law of Moses].
IF he is not obeying the Law of the Spirit, he is in the flesh [Rom 8:13], and being ministered to by the minister of condemnation (the Words of Moses [Joh 5:45]: all sin is transgression of the Law).
IF a believer is spiritual, he is (as it were) “decreasing” [Joh 3:30], and the Law’s ministry of condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] is, in equal manner, “vanishing” [Heb 8:13] (as the Law pertains only to his “decreasing” flesh, it is also waning in its opportunity to minister punishment/condemnation — since, “against walking in the Spirit/the fruit of the Spirit, there is no Law” [Gal 5:23]; and, “those who walk in the Spirit [according to its Law] do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh {Law of Sin}” [Gal 5:16] {it is solely against the fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh — i.e.: “sin” — that the Law speaks}, they are “not under the Law {since the Law condemns sin, and there is no sin being committed to condemn}” [Gal 5:18]).
Some believers must repent of idolatry [Eph 5:5; 1 Joh 5:2], and return to eating Jesus Christ (instead of eating “foods sacrificed to idols” [Rev 2:14], they need to eat “the Lamb of God [Joh 1:29; 6:51-53], sacrificed to God” (as it were), as the means of serving [Rom 7:6] the Father [Rev 2:14]: those would, thereby, commence abiding in Christ/God [John 15:7; 1 Joh 2:28].
Bo,
Show me the same respect I showed you — in answering your questions — by answering me: show me what faults you find with what was just posted. If you do not, you are disqualifying yourself, since you refuse to answer the core question — i.e.: “what is taught by the Apostles of the New Covenant concerning the relationship of the believer and the Law?”
Show me where you disagree, based on Paul’s writings. Do not skip this, and talk about something else. I have shown you due respect, and answered you; now, you answer me.
Dan1el,
You have not shown respect. You have ridiculed and heckled for the most part. Your answers are not much more than taunting. So I am debating which way to go.
Proverbs 26
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Shalom
Bo,
1. Why complain about [what you perceive is — even though it isn’t] someone heckling or ridiculing — are you not constantly sneering at other Christians, who do not keep the Law — isn’t that hypocrisy, on your part, then?
2. Thanks for illustrating my point, by calling me a fool — if I said you were a fool, it was not a loose interpretation of Scripture, but an perfect application; “whoever thinks they should go back to the Law to become more spiritual is a fool” Gal 3:3.
3. Instead of attacking me or trying to find fault with me, why not try attacking my post or trying to find fault with those words? That is how a debate goes; otherwise, it is called “ad hominem” attack; it is not tactful.
Looking forward to your reply to #159.
To make Paul infallible, the majority U.S. Church opinion (it started long ago, of course) must agree to at least three tenets:
1) The OT is COMPLETELY FULFILLED: for historical reference only.
2) Paul somehow shamed the “three so-called pillars” (James, Peter, and John) into submission.
3) Paul’s Holy Spirit revelation usurps that of Jesus of Nazareth; who came to bring back the lost sheep of the house of Israel (only, in this view).
The heresy in all of this is that this makes Paul superior to Yeshua Messiah. This is the dilemma in making Paul’s words (at least) equal to Jesus’.
In Him, Ron M.
Bo,
Let me shed some light on what your problem is with answering #159: you have no answer !!! :D :D :D
You are wrong. Your words are dismantled by Paul’s doctrine as shown above.
You have no way to defend your doctrine of demons (at least not using Paul’s doctrine), any longer.
Your argument is undone; laid waste!!!
:D :D :D
;) Love you, Bo !
In Him
Bo,
Allow me to qualify “doctrine of demons” :
Gal 5:8 This persuasion came not of Him that calleth you.
The persuasive arguments you present (which only persuade untaught men; not taught ones) do not come from the Lord Jesus Christ, but some other evil spirit, and you are propagating the devil’s works.
REPENT!!!!!!!
Dan1el,
You wrote:
The above sound taunting and disrespectful to me.
I wrote:
“14. If He, by His Spirit, teaches us to break even the smallest, He loses His status as King. It is absurdity to think that YHWH’s Spirit would do such a thing.”
You wrote;
Oops, let’s try that again.
Dan1el,
You wrote:
The above sound taunting and disrespectful to me.
I wrote:
“14. If He, by His Spirit, teaches us to break even the smallest, He loses His status as King. It is absurdity to think that YHWH’s Spirit would do such a thing.”
You wrote;
Where did He say that? If Y’shua broke the law, you do not have a savior. He had to be spotless/sinless. If he did teach to break the law, He was a false prophet. If you think that he did you agree with false witnesses. The false witnesses say that Y’shua and Steven spoke against Moses and they say that Y’shua will change the customs that Moses delivered to us.
Acts 6
11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
2 Corinthians 5
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 Peter 2
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 John 3
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
He did not transgress the law/sin. If He did he is not the greatest in the kingdom. He did not teach, and does not teach us to transgress the law. If He did he is not the greatest in the kingdom. False witnesses say that He taught to break the law…that He changed the customs of Moses. Even Paul was accused of breaking the law and teaching against Moses…it was not true.
PAUL DID NOT PRACTICE BREAKING THE LAW. HE CONSISTENTLY UPHELD IT.
1 Corinthians 9
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the
of Christ…
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
should live of the gospel…
16 For though I
I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the
is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that,
, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are wicked, as wicked, (being not wicked to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are wicked.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the
sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you…
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
Some use the above passage to show that Paul was like a chameleon, acting like those that he was around. They say that he acted wicked with the wicked when they say that he did not keep the law when he was around gentiles. But it should be obvious that the whole passage above is about how he preached, not about whether he kept the law with the Jews and didn’t with the lawless. How did he become weak to gain the weak? He adjusted his message to the audience so that they could understand the gospel. To the Jews he argued like a Jew. To those that were wicked/without law/lawless he related things in a way that would make them contemplate their need for a savior.
He did this Athens when he disputed with the Jews in their synagogue and then with the philosophers on Mars Hill, when he used the shrine to the unknown god and said, “as certain of your own poets have said.” (Acts 17:16-32) His own testimony and actions prove that he always kept YHWH’s law. There is no other way to reconcile these passages that is in keeping with the actual words that they relate. Read the passages below CAREFULLY. He proved that, “all may know,” he kept the law. He was not a hypocrite. He offended not one law of the Jews. He was faithful to the whole law and the prophets.
Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and
Acts 23
1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Acts 24
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers,
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And
Acts 25
7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
8 While
9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
11 For
or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but
Paul preached the gospel differently to different situations that he encountered. He upheld the law. He did not think that keeping the law could save anyone. He loved YHWH and kept His commandments. He believed everything in the law and the prophets. Do I even need to quote to you what that law and prophets says about loving YHWH. I shouldn’t have to. It would do not good any way, because if you do not believe the one that rose from the dead, you will not believe Moses…or vice versa.
Shalom
Dan1el,
You gloat well.
Shalom
Bo,
No; this time, you’re not going to escape — since you could post another thousand points, but never listen to the correction of your view, it is useless to correct your posts: correct me — #159 is my the entire belief about whether the New Covenant Believer should live by the Old Covenant Law of Moses, and what the Law of Moses was actually for.
Show me something in #159 that is not sound doctrine. Pick a specific line out of what was presented to you in #159, and tell me what problem you have with it, based on Scripture; please don’t just post another list of your own thoughts.
Gloating? Can you show me an instance where what I am believing is false?
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not those of the world. Instead, they have the power of God to DEMOLISH FORTRESSES. WE TEAR DOWN ARGUMENTS
2Co 10:5 AND EVERY PROUD OBSTACLE THAT IS RAISED AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, TAKING EVERY THOUGHT CAPTIVE IN ORDER TO OBEY THE MESSIAH.
I am deeply pleasured to lay waste your proud words, which war against the True Knowledge of God.
Keep formulating a response. Keep reading #159, until you can POSSIBLY come up with a response. You would LOVE to (I know); the problem is that you have no reply. Why not just “stand corrected” ? Because you’re proud — the answer is easy.
If you don’t give an answer, you are avoiding, and therefore forfeiting/conceding.
Bo,
Twenty years ago, you would have been disqualified by default simply for trying to put Moses up against Paul. You are on an equal basis with Dan; I had to go against some of the leaders of the Church, and was asked to leave or cursed for my beliefs more times than I can remember. I’m sure Dr. Brown can give you some similar testimony, though he had more leadership authority in a denomination (or movement).
The Messianic insight hasn’t grown by leaps and bound; but it has more influence now than anytime except the first Jerusalem Church. As I mentioned, there are many topics not even begun to be discussed. Dan still holds the majority doctrine; but it is less than before, because many are reading the Bible for themselves, instead of relying on some preacher to totally instruct them on everything each week.
I doubt at this juncture that you are going to change Dan’a mind any more than he is your’s.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
Yes gloating.
I am not conceding. Don’t count your chickens before the eggs are hatched, let alone not even lain yet.
Shalom
Ron,
Thanks. I know that I will not change his mind. This is about iron sharpening iron.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Post 167 is pretty good eh?
Shalom
Dan1el,
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It is wrong to force Y’shua’s statement into your view of Paul’s doctrine. You are not looking at Y’shua’s statement in light of Paul’s teaching. You are interpreting Paul’s teaching IN SPITE of what Y’shua said. You are ignoring Paul’s clarifications in his argument. You are not paying close attention to what Paul does say and are putting words in his mouth. You are ignoring or discrediting what the Light says so you can keep your “I am of Paul” stance.
Let’s do it the correct way.
Since Y’shua said that he did not come to destroy/loosen the law, let’s see if Paul agrees.
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
There is great advantage of knowing the scripture. It is not JUST to convict us of sin or to drive us to Messiah, as you so emphatically say. Paul says it is for our instruction in righteousness. It is for understanding true doctrine. It is for correcting us when we are acting or thinking wrongly. It is for our gaining maturity/perfection. It is for us to learn thoroughly about what good works we are to do.
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul wrote this to a spirit filled disciple of his. His son in the faith. The Spirit was not enough, as far as Paul was concerned, even for someone that had studied under him, and heard him preach and teach. Grace had not rendered the law void for Timothy or Paul.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Coming to faith in Y’shua does not render the law worthless, as you have basically said. When we read Paul’s first three chapters of Romans we may get the wrong idea about the place that the law has in the believers life, so Paul clarifies in the strongest of terms. If what we get out of Romans one through three contradicts 3:31 we have twisted Paul’s words somehow. Paul makes clarifications like the one above throughout Romans so that we will not misunderstand what is being said. When we come to these places and cannot fully agree with one of his statements of clarification, we need to reread the preceding argument that he makes in light of his own statement. Faith does not make the law void (worthless or without authority) in a believers life. Does grace?
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
What form of doctrine was delivered to them? What kind was Paul wanting Timothy to get out of the Tanakh for himself and those he was teaching? What did Y’shua say that we were supposed teach if we wanted to be great in the kingdom of heaven? What did the Romans obey? The questions are all answered in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. We do not have permission to sin/transgress the law, even though we are under grace. If we continue to transgress, we are servants of sin unto death. If we obey the doctrine that comes from Torah we are servants of YHWH unto righteousness. Paul says in the strongest of terms that it is unthinkable that grace would give us permission to transgress YHWH’s law. If we read Romans 4-6:15 and we think that otherwise, we need to reread it with 6:15 in mind.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
Where does the idea that the law is void originate?
Matthew 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
6…Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
If our traditions, commandments, ideas, philosophies or practices keep us form obeying YHWH’s instructions we are no better than those that honor YHWH with our lips only. Our heart is far from Him, even if we have ooey gooey feelings about Him. Even if we think that we are listening to His Spirit. Our heart has deceived us.
Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
We know if we love Him if we are keeping His commandments and we like keeping them.
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If we read or hear YHWH’s doctrine from the Tanakh, like Paul told Timothy to do, and do not put it into practice, we deceive ourselves by our deceitful heart.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
We may think that we love YHWH and thus His word, but our actions betray our deceitful hearts. We may think that we fully intend to obey every word of YHWH, but the instruction in righteousness in the Tanakh will test us. When we find out that YHWH commands us to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy and we cannot or will not obey His word, we know if it was just a thought that we wanted to do YHWH’s will or that we really intended to obey whatever He commands.
Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The word of YHWH dicerns/reveals to us our true intents and our lack of resolve to obey. We know that we love Him when we keep His commandments and they are not burdensome to us. What does Paul say about the commandments and traditions of men? Does he agree with Y’shua?
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Titus 1
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
It is not a doctrine of Y’shua, Moses, or Paul to ignore or disobey YHWH’s commandments. The traditions, commandments and doctrines of men are where we get the idea that the law is void, useless or not to be kept. We should not even think that Y’shua came to destroy/abolish/loosen the law or the prophets. Both Y’shua and Paul tell us this.
Dan1el basically proclaims that it is sin to keep the law. That the law is sin. That it is not good or righteous. That we are not to get our doctrine or instruction in righteousness from it.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
May it never be that we twist Paul to be saying that the law is sin or death. Whatever he wrote in last half of chapter 6 of Romans, he was not saying that the law was bad or that it did us bad. We are bad…carnal. We think wrong about YHWH’s law. We think that we should not obey it anymore…if we have carnal minds.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Walking after the Spirit produces obedience to YHWH’s law. If it didn’t, YHWH would be fighting against Himself. Would He say on one hand that those that keep and do all of His commandments contained in the law will be called great in the kingdom, and on the other hand teach us by His Spirit that we do not need to keep the law? Paul does not think so. He taught that the Spirit causes us to keep YHWH’s law and that it was our carnal minds that resisted keeping YHWH’s law. Just like Y’shua came not to abolish/destroy the law but to fulfill it, His Spirit causes us to fulfill it. He fulfilled it by doing it. When we walk in His steps by His Spirit we will do the same.
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Whatever Paul has said prior to this statement, it is not true that there is any unrighteousness with Him. All His ways are justice. He chooses who He chooses. He predestines who He predestines to conform to the image of His son. We know the real sons of YHWH by certain things.
Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
If we are truly being led by the Spirit and are not living after the flesh by not subjecting ourselves to YHWH’s law, we are YHWH’s sons.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we are YHWH’s sons, we purify ourselves. We do not continue to transgress the law, which is sin. We do righteousness…the righteousness of the law. We do it the same way that Timothy did. By reading it and putting it into practice. If we cannot bring ourselves to purify ourselves in this way, we are carnal/fleshly and are not being led of the Spirit. We do not know YHWH. We are not sons of YHWH, but of the devil.
Hebrews 12
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
We are chastened of YHWH, if we are His sons. Most of us have not yet been killed or bloodied striving against sin. Our purifying ourselves as He is pure has not yet come to this. YHWH wants us to be Holy. Truly set apart to Him. Not just in some invisible way, but by walking in obedience to His holiness laws. Will we be like Esau? Selling our birthright by disobedience? Will we be profane or holy? Will we bring the root of bitterness into the camp?
Deuteronomy 29
18 lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go to serve the gods of those nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 and it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying: ‘I shall have peace, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart—that the watered be swept away with the dry’;
Will the watered be swept away with the dry (many be defiled) because we refuse to obey out of our prideful and stubborn hearts. One that has the root that bears gall and wormwood (root of bitterness) thinks that he is at peace with YHWH. He thinks that he will have peace though he does things his own way instead of being subject to the righteousness, doctrine and good works described by YHWH in the Tanakh. Esau did things his own way. He tried to repent, but it was too late.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Whatever we think that Paul is saying, he is not saying that the gentile church has replaced Israel. The gentiles must be grafted into Israel. To Israel belongs the adoption and the covenants of promise. If we want to be sons of YHWH and to be in covenant with YHWH, we must be grafted into Israel by Y’shua. We have no room to boast. We should be grateful and show it by obedience.
Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We cannot present ourselves as holy, acceptable, living sacrifices to YHWH without renewing our minds in the same scripture that Paul did and that he told Timothy to. We need our minds renewed by YHWH’s perfect law.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
YHWH’s law is what converts/renews our souls/minds. Do we want to be acceptable sacrifices to YHWH? Do we want our words and meditations of our hearts to e acceptable? Do we really think that we can understand our errors without the light of YHWH’s torah? Presumptuous sin is transgressing on purpose. It is the root of bitterness. There is great reward in knowing and keeping all of YHWH’s commandments…we will be great in the kingdom of heaven at least. Does Paul think that there is a benefit or reward for keeping YHWH’s torah?
Let’s talk about Colossians chapter two next.
Shalom
Bo,
I will reply to nothing other than a discussion on #159; from here on out, your unwillingness to respond to it will be equivalent to your own concession.
Thanks
Dan1el,
Do as you please. Since you are all powerful…call it a concession if you like. I do not concede. I will continue to post as I please concerning the topic that we have been discussing. I am sure that there will be a scripture here or there that will be one of yours…if not…maybe you would condescend to jump in now and then. I asked for one passage at a time a long time ago and you refused to do it that way, so here we are. If you cannot rebut the above, remain silent…but someone might read my posts and convert if you are not there to save them.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Colossians 2 was in one of your posts, so you might want to peruse my next posts.
Shalom
Dan1el,
By the way, you wanted me to show how Paul’s and Y’shua’s statements matched at some point. The beginning of that response is found in the posts above.
Shalom
Dan1el,
What about Colossians Chapter Two?
This is a short commentary, of sorts, on certain aspects of the misunderstanding of modern Christianity concerning Colossians chapter 2. Some portions of this passage have not been included for the purpose of being able to clearly deal with certain topics without bringing in issues that might sidetrack the thought processes, and not for the purpose of skirting the other important issues that Paul discusses in this text.
Colossians 2
2 …to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[Let the reader note that the phrase, “Lest any man should beguile you” is the beginning of a repetitive warning by Paul to the Colossians. There was a concern that “enticing words” would sway these believers away from the wisdom and knowledge of YHWH the Father and Messiah the Son; that some supposed good sounding idea of “man” would corrupt them and cause them to believe in and practice something other than the “wisdom and knowledge” of YHWH. The Colossians needed to realize that there was not something being hidden from them that some manmade philosophy or tradition could enlighten them about regarding their worship of and service to YHWH. All they needed to know, or that there is to know, is in plain view via the Law and the Prophets and the message of the Gospel of Messiah. There were no close-kept secrets or mysterious revelations to be initiated into. YHWH has revealed His truth, the truth, for all to see and participate in.]
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[Here we have it restated as, “Beware lest any man spoil you…after the tradition of men.” The “rudiments”/basic principles (Strong’s #4747) of the world are in opposition to Messiah and His teachings. In Hebrews 5:12-6:2 we find that there are also basic principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747) of the oracles of YHWH and the doctrine of Messiah. These oracles of YHWH and the basic doctrines of Messiah are equated by the writer of Hebrews. We would expect nothing different, because the Father and the Son are one. They are in agreement with each other. “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17, 19-20) We can be preserved or spoiled…sanctified or corrupted. It all depends upon whether we live by every word of YHWH or by the traditions and philosophies of men.]
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[We would expect that, since the “fullness of the Godhead” dwells in Messiah, He would not have some different “wisdom and knowledge” than that of the Father. It is “philosophy and vain deceit” of man that would conclude that YHWH and Messiah have different ideas or contrary commandments or that there are other “anointed ones” that have more or deeper or fuller revelation. Messiah stated it very succinctly when He warned us to “think not that I am come to destroy/abolish/make void the law and the prophets.” (Mat. 5:17) The law and the prophets are called the “living oracles” or the “oracles of God” by Paul, Stephen and Peter. (Acts 7:38; Rom. 3:1-2; 1 Pet. 4:11) Messiah is the Word Made Flesh. Whose word is He? Whose word did He live? His basic principles are the same as the oracles of His Father. There is nothing to be added or explained away or spiritualized. All we need to know is wrapped up in Y’shua’s life and teaching.]
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[We are “complete in Him” and do not need the ideas of men to inform us about our devotion to YHWH. Doing what the Word Made Flesh did and taught is all that is required of us. Messiah said, “All power in heaven and earth are given unto me.” (Mat. 28:18) “Principality” (Strong’s #746) and “power” (Strong’s #1849) are words used in the NT to denote positions of government and also the men that hold those positions. It is only by extension and with words of clarification that these Greek words are used of “heavenly” or “spiritual” or “Invisible” positions or beings. That there are “spiritual” or “heavenly” or “invisible” principalities and powers behind the men that hold the earthly positions is true, but even in those cases we must deal directly with the humans involved just as Y’shua dealt directly with the human element during His ministry.
Paul, in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, demonstrates this principle. He does not fight with a physical sword, but with words. Words are very powerful. He uses words, speaking both the scripture and its applications along with logical arguments, to cast down imaginations in people’s minds that are contrary to knowledge of YHWH. He did it in person and in written form. Even in the passage we are discussing, we see that he appeals to the Colossians with logical arguments as to why it is not appropriate to submit to the teachings of men that are contrary to the Father’s and the Son’s “wisdom and knowledge.” He is casting down a wicked idea/imagination.
In Luke 12:11 we find the first use of these authority terms together in the NT scripture: “And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates (Strong’s #746), and powers (Strong’s #1849), take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:” We see here the very same sentiment that Paul expressed. Namely that YHWH’s words will be given to us to wage a spiritual battle against the men that are the very “principalities and powers” to whom Y’shua was constantly showing their absurdities and misuses of scripture by use of His words of “wisdom and knowledge” of scripture. This is exactly what Colossians 2:15 is saying.]
15 And having spoiled principalities (Strong’s #746) and powers (Strong’s #1849), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…
[What is the “therefore” there for in verse 16? It is showing that the men that were in leadership (principalities and powers), having been shown to be insubordinate and that were subsequently unseated, do not have any authority to rule in matters of scriptural observance. (Mat.21:23-46) We are warned again to “Let no man judge” us BECAUSE of what Y’shua did to prove the absurdity of the religious leaders’ ideas of what constituted obedience in these areas. YHWH’s scriptural observances are not to be contaminated or replaced by man’s worldly principles, traditions and philosophies. We are to adhere to the “wisdom and knowledge” of Messiah and YHWH.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many commandments of men to the “knowledge of YHWH.” Y’shua had made these authorities look like fools in reprimanding them about their ideas… especially concerning food and drink, and Sabbaths…not to mention many other topics. He truly “triumphed over them” in a very public and humiliating way in these confrontations. Thus we read, “…neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Mat.22:46) Though He rebuked the “principalities and powers” concerning their manmade rules, He continued to keep Torah perfectly and He did not teach His disciples to do anything differently than He was doing. He sanctified Himself by keeping YHWH’s commandments and expected this lifestyle, void of manmade additions, to be the sanctification of His disciples and the sanctification of those that would believe through their word. (John 17:17-20) He did not come to make the law void. (Mat. 5:17-19) He did not die an agonizing death in our place because of our transgressions of YHWH’s perfect law, just to allow us to continue in transgression of YHWH’s instructions. He came to give us a new start, a new spirit, a new heart, along with the ability to obey YHWH.
We also should not to listen to the ideas of modern religious, even Christian, men in regard to how to, or whether to, keep YHWH’s feasts, new moons and Sabbaths…which happen to be part of YHWH’s perfect Torah…His oracles…His basic principles/rudiments. We are to cast down the arguments/imaginations of men that are contrary to the straight forward commands of scripture. When we submit to man’s ideas, instead of to the teaching of scripture, we are beguiled of our reward for obedience. So the exhortation stands…we are not to be intimidated into adhering to man’s additions to or subtractions from YHWH’s commandments. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…” (Rom. 6:16) We basically belong to and are thus sanctified (set apart) to the one whose ideas we accept and practice. Our loyalties reveal to us our hearts’ secrets that might otherwise go unnoticed because of our hearts’ deceitful ways. (Jer. 17:9) “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)]
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels (messengers), intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind,
[What is a fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind? Let’s use Paul’s definition for sake of consistency. “…the carnal (Strong’s #4561) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Rom. 8:7) So the carnal/fleshly mind is one that cannot or will not bring itself into agreement with YHWH’s Torah. It fights against YHWH and His rulership.
When we submit to messengers/preachers that tell us not to keep YHWH’s feasts and Sabbaths, we are being beguiled out of our reward. We are subjecting ourselves to prideful, carnal minded men instead of to the instructions of YHWH and thus we, also, are carnal minded. If we can be tricked into listening to great sermons and teachings on the meaning of the feasts and Sabbaths and continue to fail to keep them, we have been beguiled. If we have swallowed the idea, and thus many other things that the scripture says are not food, that the dietary laws were only until the refrigerator was invented or only until we learned how to cook it fully, we have savored a deception. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7) “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (Jam. 1:22) “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” (Rom. 2:13)
When we follow the additions of Judaism or the subtractions of Christianity, we are elevating man to the place of Elohim/judge. It doesn’t matter how old the tradition is or how new the great idea is. If it is causing us to disobey the “wisdom and knowledge” or the “oracles and doctrine” of the Father and the Son, it is robbing us of our reward. “So then they that are in the flesh (Strong’s #4561) cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:8) “For he that soweth to his flesh (Strong’s #4561) shall of the flesh (Strong’s #4561) reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Gal. 6:8)]
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[“The commandments and doctrines of men” are the things that we are not to submit to. We are supposed to have died to worldly principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747). We are supposed to be keeping YHWH’s and Y’shua’s principles/basics (Strong’s #4747). Everyone and every culture, even Christian culture, has their ideas about what is appropriate and inappropriate, what is tasty and disgusting to eat and drink. Will we submit to YHWH’s ingredient list or carnal minded man’s? Certainly the passage above is not saying that YHWH’s ordinances are worldly. From the context, the meaning in the above passage is obvious. We are not to submit to man’s ideas of diet, but we are to submit to YHWH’s definition of food and drink, and not to let man mix his vain deceit and philosophy into the recipe. It is quite telling when we realize that we brush our teeth every day and wash our hands before meals and after going to the restroom, but refuse to adjust our eating habits to match Messiah’s and the Heavenly Father’s. We will subject ourselves to man’s idea of cleanliness, but refuse to be clean by YHWH’s standards. Who are we sanctified to?]
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
[The commandments of YHWH are part of His “wisdom and knowledge.” Man’s carnal mind resists YHWH and comes up with other ideas. These ideas and practices may make us feel “satisfied,” ease our consciences, or assure us that we are more pious than others. They can seem like “wisdom” or look like “humility,” but true humility submits to YHWH’s word. True wisdom is to obey. “To obey is better than sacrifice…” (1 Sam. 15:22-23) The story of Saul being rejected from being king and subsequently losing the Spirit of YHWH is a solemn reminder to us not to listen to men…like Saul did…and not disobey YHWH’s command…like Saul did…and not be “beguiled of our reward”…like Saul was. (1 Sam. 15:1-35; 16:14)
When we only do the things that make sense to us, we are proud…not humble. It is a test of our humility and faith when we are asked to keep YHWH’s holy days, Sabbaths and dietary ideas. It is faithfulness in the little things that proves our wholehearted devotion. “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much…” (Luke 16:10) Messiah told us what would bring us a great reward. He said, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 5:19) Are we going to accept these basic principles of the doctrine of Messiah or let the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of men trick us out of our reward?]
“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” (Psa. 19:7-11) It will truly be a “great reward” when we are elevated by Messiah to a high place in His coming kingdom, but this will only happen to those that humbly submit to YHWH’s ideas in the here and now. “Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 18:4) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:” (1 Pet. 5:6)
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Rev. 22:14) Not to be allowed entrance into the New Jerusalem or to partake of the tree of life would be quite the opposite of a great reward. What are we being beguiled out of when we listen to men that teach us not to submit humbly to YHWH’s commandments? Maybe more than we had thought.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Gal. 3:21) Keeping the law is absolutely not against YHWH’s promises/rewards. As we have seen, keeping YHWH’s commandments brings great reward. Let me acknowledge, at this point, that no one can become righteous by keeping rules or laws, even YHWH’s perfect law. Even Y’shua was not righteous because He kept the law, and He kept it perfectly. Our Messiah kept the law because He was righteous. This is the way it is supposed to be for us also.
Keeping YHWH’s commandments is supposed to come from our having been made righteous by placing our faith in Y’shua’s sacrifice. We are to gladly present ourselves as living sacrifices out of gratitude. The only way to be a pleasing sacrifice is to live in accordance with the good, acceptable and perfect will of YHWH. The only way to know His will is to pay attention to His instructions that He has so graciously spelled out for us in the Scripture. (Rom.12:1-2) So it is not that we have to keep the commandments in order to partake of the tree of life. It is that our born again spirits working in conjunction with our minds, that we have been diligent to renew in the scripture, produce obedience in our lifestyle. It is a process. For the most part, it does not and, indeed, should not need to be a painstakingly slow one. YHWH’s written word is easily available to most all of us in the West. We can simply read through the Bible, putting the things we read into practice as we go by the power of YHWH’s Spirit of grace. Within a year or two, or at the most three, we can become significantly better at being “doers of the word.” (Luke 13:6-9; James 1:21-25)
Peter said of Paul that his writings were difficult to understand and that the unlearned twisted them to their own destruction…becoming law breakers. (2 Pet. 3:15-17) We can fall into that trap ourselves. When we have listened to the doctrines of men and have adopted their ideas as our mindset, we can inadvertently reject the basic principles of YHWH’s perfect instructions. Paul is difficult to understand when we do not know the foundational teachings of Messiah, which are the same as the oracles of YHWH…the Law and the Prophets. (Heb. 5:12-6:2) Paul instructed Timothy to use the Law and the Prophets to gain the wisdom and understanding he needed to be completely furnished in living right (righteousness) and knowing true doctrine. (2 Tim. 3:15-17) When we read Paul as saying something that contradicts the doctrine contained in YHWH’s “living oracles,” we have twisted his intent…we have been beguiled…we have been spoiled…we have had our reward stolen…we have let men judge for us what is righteous instead of subjecting our minds to YHWH’s law…we have become carnal minded…and we cannot see or understand that it has happened because we have deceived ourselves by not putting YHWH’s commandments into practice. (Jam. 1:22)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
Here is a compilation of Paul’s own explanations of what he was, and was not, saying in his writings:
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)
[YHWH’s law defines what is and is not sin. It cannot be wrong to do what it says to do. It has to be wrong when we fail to do what it says to do; because that would be sinning by Paul’s definition.]
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2, 15)
[Since sin is defined by the Law, breaking or transgressing the Law is sin. Grace does not allow us to continue to transgress YHWH’s rules in His Torah. If we are truly dead to sin and alive to YHWH, we will stop sinning/transgressing the Law. Grace is supposed to empower us by giving us a new starting place…as if we had never sinned/transgressed YHWH’s law. Our past transgressions do not count against us; so we can go forward with confidence. Without grace, there is no eternal reason to keep the law since we have already broken it with no hope of ever being able to make it up. With grace, we can be assured that our efforts to obey YHWH will be rewarded…if we let no man beguile us out of our reward with their doctrines and commandments of men.]
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom. 7:12, 14)
[The law is not a bad thing. How did we ever come up with the idea that something that was breathed by our loving Heavenly Father was other than spiritual, holy, righteous, just and good for us? We have bad ideas about it because of our carnal thinking.]
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
[When we do not want to do what the law says, we show that we are still carnal minded and that we are fighting against YHWH. If we renew our minds in the scripture and love YHWH’s instructions/Torah, we will begin to please YHWH by being obedient. Being subject to YHWH’s Torah is being spiritually minded. Rejecting His instructions in the Tanakh is indicative of a carnal mind.]
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
[Coming to faith does not exclude us from obeying YHWH’s instructions in His Torah; it empowers us to keep them because of grace. The law is established. It has a better foundation in our lives when we have repented for having broken it (sin), and received forgiveness. Now we can build with gold, silver and precious stones of obedience instead of with the wood, hay and stubble of man’s ideas that amount to disobedience.]
We can be cured. We can become doers of the word. We can renew our minds in YHWH’s Torah and present our bodies as obedient children, becoming living sacrifices. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:1-2)
It is simple, but it is not easy. It is difficult to stand in opposition to the traditions and commandments of men…especially of men we love and have been close to…of men that are our family…of men that have been our pastors and teachers. But we will be given the words to say when we are brought before our modern day “principalities and powers.” We may not convince them, but they will run out of truly scriptural arguments. It is difficult to get out of old ways of thinking and to stop participating in our old ways of doing things. Habits die hard, but we have been given the Spirit of Grace to change. We have been given the ability to truly love YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength…by keeping His commandments. That is how love for YHWH expresses itself.
Deuteronomy 7
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 11
3 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul…
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 14
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
The saints…those that are sanctified (set apart) to YHWH are called to keep their faith in Y’shua AND to keep YHWH’s commandments. To do one or the other does not wholly sanctify us. We must be sanctified (made holy) in both flesh and spirit. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Cor. 7:1) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Heb. 12:14) It is our call to cleanse ourselves in both areas by faith and works. Real faith always produces works. What we truly believe, we demonstrate to all by what we do. (Jam. 2:17-19) A faith in Y’shua that does not produce commandment keeping is either a false faith or an uninformed faith. We are not supposed to remain ignorant or unfaithful. We are to grow up and go on to perfection/maturity.
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection…
The basics of YHWH’s oracles are in need of being taught again because they have been ignored or slandered as legalism. We have seen that the “New Testament” has much to say about keeping the Father’s commandments. It is not legalism to keep them…it is pride and rebellion not to keep them. It is also fruitless to keep them in order to gain righteous status before YHWH. We cannot be saved by works, but we cannot be saved without works either. It takes FULL FAITH in Y’shua’s sacrifice that produces FAITHFULL-ness to YHWH’s commandments. “What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?” (Jam. 2:14) Men have beguiled us of our reward with their doctrines and religious philosophies that preach a gospel that produces a workless faith, at least as far as the works described in YHWH’s Torah/living oracles. We ought to be teachers by now. We ought to be doing and teaching others to keep YHWH’s commandments; not so that they can get saved, but so that they can “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” and not lose their reward. We ought to do this so that we won’t lose our reward too.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[Note: There are more NT passages that would show us that the definitions of “principalities and powers” is referring to men in positions of authority. (Luke 20:20; 1 Cor. 15:2; Eph. 1:21; Col. 1:16; Tit. 3:1) There is more NT scripture that would back up the idea of not submitting to man’s commandments and doctrines, but only and always to YHWH’s commandments. (Mat. 5:18-19; 15:9; 16:12; 19:16-17; Mark 7:7; John 14:15,21; 15:10; Rom. 3:31; 7:7; 16:17; 1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 3:21; Eph. 4:14; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; Tit. 1:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 3:4-8; 5:2-3; 2 John 1:8-11; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14) There are even NT passages that tell us to keep YHWH’s feasts, and passages that use the feasts of YHWH as time references when speaking to “gentile” assemblies. If they weren’t keeping them, these references would have little meaning to those once gentile believers. (1 Cor. 5:7-8; 16:8; Acts 12: 3; 13:42-44; 15:21; 20:6; 27:9; Heb. 4:9-10)]
Shalom
Dan1el,
How about Galatians next? Seems like you quoted it a bit.
Shalom
Bo,
I will reply to nothing other than a discussion on #159; your unwillingness to respond is equivalent to your concession.
Thanks
Bo,
You don’t NEED say you concede; I’m just saying it is “equivalent” to concession, since you CANNOT or WILL NOT address/refute #159.
You can “vandalize” the site with as much “graffiti” as you want; it makes no difference: the plain fact is that you lack a response.
Dan1el,
I am sure that you will find discussion about parts of the most illustrious and famous post # 159 in the posts above and the ones that might follow. If 159 is now to be considered as scripture, please let us know. We might try to get it into the next translation of the Bible.
If you want me to answer you, please post one scripture that you would like to discuss. You choose the ONE passage of scripture that is the most important to you, post it with a BRIEF explanation, and I will answer that post. We will let the readers of our posts decide which is the most graffiti like. For you are not the judge of that.
It is still very difficult for me to decide whether or not to answer you.
Proverbs 9
7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
Matthew 7
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Shalom
Daniel,
In post 159 your wrote:
Oops, it is supposed to look like this:
Daniel,
In post 159 your wrote:
One more time for the money, here is what Paul told Timothy:
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I firmly believe that “instruction in righteousness” is to come from the Law and the Prophets. I also firmly believe that no one is made righteous by keeping the law.
You are 50% correct according to Paul.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Here are some quotes from our dialogue on LOF on Believers and the Law of Moses posted on 7/19/11:
You wrote:
I responded:
“Here we go again on 1 Timothy 1. You might have seen this before :)
And one more time I encourage you to read the context and pay attention to what is actually being said.
1 Timothy 1
2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia––remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
(No other doctrine than he tells Timothy how to obtain in 2 Timothy 3:16-17…that would be from the Law and Prophets.)
4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
(Just like John, Paul says that keeping the commandments of YHWH is the expression of true love and faith.)(1 John 5:2-3)
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
(I suppose that idle talk does come from those that do not listen to the sound doctrine of the Law and Prophets and start telling about endless genealogies and Jewish fables…sounds like the Talmud to me. I also suppose that those that use the law lawfully to teach doctrine and instruction in righteousness to those that are law breakers and insubordinate to YWHH, the law of YHWH is not jangling at all, except to those that have carnal minds that cannot subject themselves to YHWH’s law.)(Rom.8:7)
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the law breakers and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
(Sound doctrine from the TNK that Paul recommends for Timothy to rebuke people with, is to keep YHWH’s commandments AND have faith in Y’shua, not just one or the other.)(2 Tim.3:15-4:4; Rev.14:12)
So I think that I use the law lawfully to expose our transgressions of YHWH’s law and call us to repent. I suppose that those that you will not accept this doctrine, and will consider it vain jangling. I fully believe that the vain jangling is when people try to use the law to tell us that we should not keep the law. It is kind of like saying, “There are no absolutes.” These types of statements are self contradicting.
One last thought…actually two:
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Psalms 119
126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.”
You wrote:
I responded with:
“Once again, you have snatched a little snippet out of context and act like it is what the whole Bible says…when in reality, it is not even what the passage relates. I guess if one can scratch out whole books of the Bible, one can cut it apart, and ignoring the context, make it say just about anything. Let’s read Galatians 5:1 in context and see what the whole thought in this passage is.
Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Paul had Timothy circumcised.(Acts 16:1-3) Did Paul cause Timothy to break Galatians 5:1 or 5:2 or 5:3…NO!…because of 5:4! Timothy did not fall from grace when he got circumcised. Why? Because he was simply performing the commandment of YHWH, not trusting in the law for salvation/justification.
Please note that the yoke of bondage is not referring to YHWH’s perfect law. The yoke is trying to be justified by following laws. Performing YHWH’s commandments out of love for Him is not grievous bondage. It is faith working by love.(1 John 5:1-3) If it is grievous for us to keep YHWH’s commandments, it shows that we are lacking in faith and love.
James says that YHWH’s perfect law is one of liberty…quite the opposite of bondage. James even says that if we look into it and do not line our lives up with it, we are deceiving ourselves.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
So now I have refuted your out of context ideas that you have pulled out of 1 Timothy and Galatians 5. Why don’t you show us how what I have written is not what is related in those passages.”
And probabably because you had no answer, you responded:
Did I win that debate since you refused to answer?
Shalom
Dan1el,
I posted a partial response to your post # 159 in post #190. Just thought you would be pleased to know about it.
Shalom
Dan1el,
I am wondering why you think that Paul and Timothy were fools. See post 190.
Shalom
Bo,
.
1. In post 159 your wrote:
“only fools could consider going back to the Law to learn righteousness, since it never made anyone righteousness…”
One more time for the money, here is what Paul told Timothy:
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I firmly believe that “instruction in righteousness” is to come from the Law and the Prophets. I also firmly believe that no one is made righteous by keeping the law.
You are 50% correct according to Paul.
Shalom
Answer:
A. Great — I’m glad you replied.
B. I believe #159 is a ScripturALLY sound writing — based on Scripture — adding nothing to it.
Ci. First of all, whatever the “Righteousness” Paul is talking about, it is definitely NOT going to contradict this saying — “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery [Law]” [Gal 5:1], since those who are led by the Spirit are not under Law [Gal 5:18] (in that, they are sons of God [Gal 3:26]). The following verse [Gal 5:2] tells people Christ is of no avail to those who are circumcised for justification; and Gal 3:3 covers those who would do it for perfection in righteousness — calling them “fools” [Gal 3:3]. There must be another reason/option as to why Timothy was circumcised, then. More on that later.
Cii. The “instruction in righteousness”, is talking about “how to be found in Christ” — “and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own — even that which is of the Law — but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith” [Pp 3:9].
“How To Be Found In Christ”
Joh 5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet THEY TESTIFY ABOUT ME.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to me to have life.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
a. The Scriptures testified about JESUS [John 5] — this is why it is said, “they are able to make you wise unto salvation” [2 Tim 3:15]: if anyone listens to Scripture, and IS LED/GOES TO JESUS, or LEADS PEOPLE TO JESUS; that is the definition of “lawfully using the Law” [1 Tim 1:8].
b. “Keeping kosher, Moedim, New Moon, Shabbat were all mere shadows of things to come, and they were all pointing men to Jesus Christ.” [Col 2:16, 17]
Again, the “instruction in righteousness” was “instruction in HOW TO BE FOUND IN CHRIST”.
D. NOTICE: Timothy, although a young man, was not, as of yet, circumcised — IF his grandmother and mother had been women of faith [2 Tim 1:5], presumably knowledgeable in the Scriptures [2 Tim 3:15]; AND keen on “obeying the Law”, Timothy would’ve been circumcised LONG before Paul had a chance to do so [Acts 16:3] (circumcision is something basic; not elusive). The logical conclusion is, then, that his mother and grandmother (who, although they were women of faith, and knowledgeable in Scripture) were NOT TORAH-OBSERVANT; that he had Timothy circumcised for some other reason. Here, then, is an example of a family of faith, who did not observe Torah mizvos — but, a member of which house was, afterward, circumcised. What, then, is the reason?
E. What Timothy’s circumcision might has been: Apostle Paul says, “to those under the Law, I become as one who is under the Law that I might win those under the Law (though, I, myself, am NOT UNDER THE LAW)” [1 Co 9:20] — either way, the facts speak for themselves. Timothy was circumcised “BECAUSE OF THE JEWS IN THOSE PLACES, for they all knew that his father was a Greek”. Paul had him circumcised — NOT “because the TNK equips me for all righteousness (on the contrary, the were only shadows, pointing to faith in Christ [Col 2:16, 17]”, but BECAUSE OF THE JEWS. What ever BECAUSE OF THE JEWS means, that is why Timothy was circumcised.
F. In Galatia, there were some Jews who were compelling men to obey the Law…
Gal 2:3 But *not even Titus*, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised
Eventually, however, someone (Barnabas) was “carried away” with their doctrine (of obedience to the Law and receiving circumcision); but it wasn’t any doctrine I would’ve wanted a part of — Paul calling it “hypocrisy” [Gal 2:13].
Thanks
Dan1el,
That is a pretty complicated answer for a simple concept, and in the complicated answer you have added certain little words and judgements that are not in the scripture. More on that later. You are right to say there is no contradiction, but you have destroyed one of Paul’s sayings by misusing other scriptures, instead of harmonizing them. You assume that someone that gets their instruction in righteousness from the Tanakh as Paul instructs is somehow under the law. Paul kept the law his whole life, both before and after he was saved. The difference is this.
Romans 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 3
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
We are not justified by works, but by faith. Doing the law to become righteous is fruitless. Messiah is the end of the law for (obtaining) righteousness. Messiah also taught us to keep the law. So did Paul. Just because we cannot become righteous by keeping the law does not mean that we do not need it to understand how to act righteously, for the law describes to us the things that YHWH calls righteousness. Timothy needed the law to know what was righteous behavior and to teach others that didn’t know also. Using the law lawfully is when we go to the mirror of YHWH’s word and adjust our life according to what He commands, not to become righteous, but because we are righteous and love to do His commandments. If we do not want to know or do what is written in the Tanakh we show our deceitful heats condition. If we get our doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness from the law we show that we love Him.
1 Timothy 1
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Since Paul and John continued to keep the law after coming to Messiah. The law is not only for driving us to Messiah, as you think. It is also the way to walk righteously. Messiah died because of our transgressions. Where would we get the idea that those things are not still transgressions, especially since Messiah said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law and the Prophets till heaven and earth pass away. It makes no sense that what was wrong to do before, is now right to do. There is great reward for keeping YHWH’s Torah. (Psalm 19:7-11)
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Since those that are righteous do righteousness, those that purify themselves as YHWH is pure by applying His instructions in righteousness will be the great ones in the kingdom. They will have the right to eat from the tree of life. If we do not apply ourselves, we prove that our supposed righteousness was false. If we do not want to know and keep His commandments we prove that we do not love Him. The Tanakh fully furnishes us with all we need to know about good works. Using it lawfully is how we grow in grace. Growing in grace does not mean that we continue to transgress more and more, for it teaches and empowers us to live righteously. It means that we continue to apply more and more of YHWH’s instructions in righteousness.
I have already addressed your other faulty assumptions and misuses of scripture in many posts above but I will try to take the time to do so again in a following post of two. Please read my posts that are found between 167 through 190. Try to digest Colossians 2 in the light that it was written.
Shalom
Bo,
1. That is a pretty complicated answer for a simple concept, and in the complicated answer you have added certain little words and judgements that are not in the scripture. More on that later. You are right to say there is no contradiction, but you have destroyed one of Paul’s sayings by misusing other scriptures, instead of harmonizing them. You assume that someone that gets their instruction in righteousness from the Tanakh as Paul instructs is somehow under the law. Paul kept the law his whole life, both before and after he was saved. The difference is this.
Romans 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 3
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
We are not justified by works, but by faith. Doing the law to become righteous is fruitless. Messiah is the end of the law for (obtaining) righteousness. Messiah also taught us to keep the law. So did Paul.
Answer:
A. Your *greatest misunderstanding of all is your misunderstanding of the role of the Law of Moses.
B. You don’t want to recognize that “the Law is not made for a righteous man” [1 Tim 1:9]; and that all those who continue in faith in Christ [Rom 3:22; Pp 3:9] ARE RIGHTEOUS — which, alone, proves that the Law is NOT made for believers. Are those who believe in Christ “righteous” [Rom 3:22]? Yes. The Law is not for them, then [1 Tim 1:9].
C. What you fail to realize is that the only righteousness Paul reached for was (NOT “righteousness that is from the Law” [Pp 3:9], but) faith that is in Christ [Rom 3:22; Pp 3:9] — the two pursuits are not the same.
D. What you fail to respect, is: though the Apostle Paul was “as touching the righteousness which is in the law, found BLAMELESS” (this is what YOU want, and what you want for BELIEVERS [though, from 1 tim 1:9 + Rom 3:22, it is clear that the Law is not made for Believers), he counted it as a LOSS for the cause of knowing Christ (which is an entirely different pursuit of righteousness — the righteousness FROM GOD through faith in Christ); this is precisely why he says that HE DID NOT WANT the righteousness from the Law [Pp 3:9]!
E. What you fail to understand is that “what the Law COULD NOT DO” GOD had to do “by sending His own Son.” [Rom 3:22; 8:3]; that this is why Apostle Paul prized that righteousness through faith in Christ (righteousness FROM GOD), and regarded the “righteousness” from the Law as a LOSS [Pp 3:7, 9].
F. What you fail to see is that the Law came as a Sheep-herder, to foreshadow Christ [Col 2:16, 17], to speak of Christ [John 5:46], and to condemn [2 Cor 3:9; John 5:45], to lead people to Christ [Gal 3:24], to make people wise unto salvation which is through faith in Christ [2 Tim 3:15]; but not to make righteous [Rom 8:3; Gal 2:21].
G. Therefore, since you fail to see these things, you use the Law unlawfully [1 Tim 1:8], desiring to be a teacher of the Law, understanding neither what you say, nor whereof you confidently affirm [1 Tim 1:7].
Dan1el,
You wrote:
Here is an example of what you did in post 159:
Since to [us] gave he power to become the sons of God (John 1:12) and now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be (1 John 3:2) we should [see] the daughters of men that they [are] fair; and [take us] wives of all which [we] choose (Gen. 6:2) or we will miss our chance because in the twinkling of an eye… we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:52 ). Also, we must be about my Father’s business (Luke 2:49) and vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord (Heb. 10:30) therefore vengeance shall be taken…sevenfold (Gen. 4:15) because the scriptures must be fulfilled (Mark 14:49) that I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee (Gen. 12:3) because Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. (Jam. 3:10)
The issue is not so much that anything was added, but that so much was left out. It seems to me that you are trying to validate your experience by stringing scriptures together rather than going to the scriptures to find out what should be our experience. You have many assumptions that are built into your logic which lead you to a conclusion that cannot harmonize the statements of John, Y’shua, Paul, Moses, and others. We cannot use one scripture against another. We must pay close attention to the details and find how they fit together as a beautiful puzzle. When we leave pieces out or saw of the tabs to make them fit, we do not end up with a true picture. This is why I wanted to take one passage of scripture at a time, look at exactly what it says, see how it fits with other scriptures, and then come to a full understanding of truth. The shotgun method does not accomplish much…other than to solidify the views of the trigger puller and those on his side of the feud.
I am still game for one of us to post ONE short passage of scripture, Comment on it BRIEFLY (if at all possible), have the other BRIEFLY show how it fits into his view of scripture, let the first one BRIEFLY show how the second one is wrong, then let the second start the process over again. I think that if we do it this way, we will cover more ground effectively. We may still hold to the same views in the end, but it will end up as a gentleman’s sword duel instead of blasting everything in sight full of tiny holes that don’t end up letting much light in.
Shalom
Dan1el,
You wrote:
I think that you are bringing you preconceived ideas to the scripture again…and leaving much out…and destroying one scripture by misusing another.
What you are saying is that Paul in 1 Timothy 1:8-10 is contradicting what Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Are there two different Pauls?
1 Timothy 1
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Paul in 1 Timothy 1:8-10 tells us to use the law lawfully to expose the unrighteousness, disobedient, unholy and “any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.” He is telling us in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 that we should use the law for instruction in righteousness, doctrine, and explaining good works. Are not these two sides to the same coin? Do they not tell us the same thing…that the law is good and holy and should be used to know what is the correct and incorrect belief and behavior?
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If what Paul means by the law was not made for “a righteous man” is that believers should not use it, why does he tell Timothy to use it for doctrine and instruction in righteousness…that the man of YHWH be fully furnished unto all good works? Is Paul saying that Timothy wasn’t a believer? Did Timothy go from being a believer at the time that 1 Timothy was written to being a nonbeliever that needed the law to lead him to Messiah when 2 Timothy was written? I think that that is the only way that your logic will hold up. It cannot be that the law is only for the unbeliever in 1 Timothy and that the man of YHWH may be perfect in 2 Timothy.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Maybe you do not think that there are two different Paul’s. Maybe you think that there are two different Timothys. One was righteous…1 Timothy, and one was an unbeliever 2 Timothy. I guess he could have had a split personality. Or maybe Paul changed his mind. Or maybe senility had set in. Or maybe the two passages are in agreement. Maybe you trying desperately to force your philosophy, doctrine and tradition into the scripture, for without such the two passages agree that the law teaches us about righteousness and true doctrine. Maybe the following quotes show your prejudice.
Shalom
2222 0000 0000
2 2 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 0
22222 0000 0000
I guess it doesn’t recognize multiple spaces.
Sometimes not even paragraphs as well. As for the perfect law of liberty, as James so identifies this as loving one’s neighbor as themselves, this is obviously precious in the case of the life of Jesus, and in believers own lives. In fact, the perfect is a very interesting study in scripture as to what it holds in the New Covenant offering.
Bo,
I don’t believe I didn’t nullified a single Scripture.
1. The flesh has the Law of Sin & Death [Rom 7:5] in it.
2. The Law of Moses condemns sin [2 Cor 3:9].
3. All who are “in the flesh” (sinning) receive ministry from the Ministry of Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9].
4. The only escape from the flesh (and the Ministry of Condemnation of sin) is to die.
5. Believers are baptized into Christ’s death [Rom 6:3].
6. The death He died, He died to SIN [Rom 6:10].
7. Those who are baptized into Christ’s death are also dead to sin [Rom 6:2].
8. Those who “died to sin”, with Christ, live “as unto God” [Rom 6:10+ 2 Cor 5:15].
9. Those dead to sin don’t need the Ministry of Condemnation any more [2 Cor 3:9].
10. Those “dead to sin” died to it by the Law of Faith [Rom3:27] a.k.a. the Law of Spirit of Life [Rom 8:2].
11. Therefore, Paul says those who obey the Spirit are not under the Law of Moses [Gal 5:18].
Here, in Galatians 5:16-23, you have a beautiful painting for you this very idea hat “the Law of the Spirit of Life sets me free from the Law of Sin and Death in my flesh; therefore I am free from the Law of Moses”:
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,
Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
i.e.:
Gal 5:16 Those who obey by the Law of the Spirit of Life do not obey the Law of Sin & Death in the flesh.
Gal 5:17 The desires of the Spirit & Flesh are contrary to one another, and frustrate peoples’ endeavors to live pleasingly “as unto God” [Rom 6:10].
Gal 5:18 Therefore, those who obey the Law of the Spirit of Life are not under the Law (of Condemnation of sins, since they don’t fulfill the desires of the flesh [Gal 5:16+2 Cor 3:9].
Gal 5:19 This is a list of some things people do when they are obeying the flesh’s Law of Sin; those who obey the Law of the Spirit will not do these things [Gal 5:16+Romans 8:2].
Gal 5:20 This is a list of some things people do when they are obeying the flesh’s Law of Sin; those who obey the Law of the Spirit will not do these things [Gal 5:16+Romans 8:2].
Gal 5:21 This is a list of some things people do when they are obeying the flesh’s Law of Sin; those who obey the Law of the Spirit will not do these things [Gal 5:16+Romans 8:2].
Gal 5:22 This is a list of some fruit people bear who are set free from the Law of Sin & Death [Rom 8:2] by obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life [Rom 8:2]; they are not under the Law [Gal 5:18], the Ministry of Condemnation of Sin [2 Cor 3:9]. Why? Because they are not sinning [Rom 6:14].
Gal 5:23 This is a list of some fruit people bear who are set free from the Law of Sin & Death [Rom 8:2] by obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life [Rom 8:2]; they are not under the Law [Gal 5:18], the Ministry of Condemnation of Sin [2 Cor 3:9]. Why? Because they are not sinning [Rom 6:14].
Bo,
Flesh = Law of Sin [Rom 7]
Law of Moses = Ministry of Condemnation of Sin; Incapable of Sanctifying [Rom 8:3; Gal 5:21]
Spirit of God = Law of Spirit of Life; those obedient to it are free from the Law of Sin [Rom 8:2]; aren’t in the flesh.
Those who live obedient to the Spirit are not in the flesh, therefore, they do not sin, and do not receive ministry from the Law, since its job is to condemn sin; not to make men righteous (the Law could not make anyone righteous, or else Christ died in vain). This is why it is said that men who are led by the Spirit are freed from the Law.
Dan1el,
The passages in 1st and 2nd Timothy say what they say. It doesn’t take an eleven point explanation in order to understand what they say. You are destroying one scripture with others. You are saying that they they don’t mean what they say, because you have a philosophical problem with them. We must approach the scriptures to find out what they say, not in a way to make them say what we want them to say so that our philosophy remains intact.
Shalom
Bo,
Incorrect; I am bringing out the exact meaning of the text by ruling out what it could not be meaning; you take issue with it for what ever reason you do, but not for any Scriptural reason.
Bo,
On the contrary, you are DISREGARDING/IGNORING CLEAR SCRIPTURE in your attempted explanation of 1 & 2 Timothy — how could you miss something so BIG and CLEARLY spelled-out as this??
Bo,
He takes special care to mention (speaking of the fruit of the Spirit) “against these there is no Law”.
What is he talking about?
From Desire issues decree.
If we obey the HOLY desires of the Spirit that is in us, we are set at “perfect liberty”. [Jas 1:25]
This liberty belongs to those whom the Son (Law of Spirit of Life) “sets free”, for they are “free indeed”. [8:36]
Free?
Free to do what God is working in them to WILL for His Good pleasure. [Pp 2:13]
Free to do what God is working in them to WILL, “as unto God” [Rom 6:10]
Dan1el,
You wrote:
In the above quote, you confessed to be doing exactly what I said you were doing. You are playing scripture against scripture to try to disprove what the one that you disagree with says.
Our job is not to rule out what a passage says. Our job is to accept what it says in plain Hebrew, Greek, and English. If we cannot trust that the Spirit of YHWH says what He means, we do not trust YHWH…we trust ourselves, our philosophies, and our intellect. We have become worshipers of ourselves. We are guilty of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…deciding for ourselves what is right and wrong.
I am not the first one to warn you about this.
You are still doing what you were doing in July. It is time to humble yourself and accept the fact that YHWH does not need you to tell Him what he meant to say or what He should have said.
Shalom
Bo,
Let’s just pretend what you say about those Scriptures is true — that we SHOULD be under the Law.
How would you explain the Scriptures that I just posted? Where would they fit in (without breaking them), in a world where those who are led by the Spirit are under the Law (in contradiction to Gal 5:18)?
Please do tell.
Bo,
I should think that the same “warning” should apply to you: Dr. Michael Brown had to sharply warn you in the open for your heretical beliefs — you renounced them, then, but you are secretly still holding to them. We’ve both been called out by Dr. Michael Brown — both for ideas he felt were heretical: had you forgotten that?
I guess that means my word shouldn’t be considered less than your’s.
Bo,
Please answer these questions, one-by-one.
1. Does the Law of Moses make men righteous, or is it incapable of making men righteous [Rom 8:3; Gal 3:21]?
2. Does the Law of Moses have a Ministry of Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9]?
3. Are believers in Christ dead to sin, and alive unto God [Rom 6:2, 10]?
4. Are those led by the Spirit under the Law [Gal 5:18]?
5. Are believers to judge others because of lack of observing a Shabbat, not keeping Kosher, not observing one of the Moedim [Col 2:16, 17]? If not, why act as if it is compulsory.
Please answer each and every single one. Please put a number in front of your answer, so I can see the EXACT answer you have for each and every question.
Dan1el,
That Dr. Brown disagrees with some things I say is true. That he rebuked me is true. That I renounced something that I believe is not true. I clarified for Dr. Brown what I was saying, because he misunderstood my stance. He felt that I was unclear. He wanted me to be clear so that I could either be considered, on his website, as a brother with divergent views or a false teacher.
It is not a matter of whether Dr. Brown agrees with either of our views. It is a matter of whether you are going to accept what the scripture says or make it say what you want it to say.
It must start at the basic level of language. We must accept the words that are used. Then we must accept syntax and the grammatical meaning of the sentence. Then we must consider the immediate context. Then we must find how the passage fits with what the rest of scripture says, but we may not give new definitions to the words, reinterpret the meaning of the sentence or decide that the passage is not scripture. It is absolutely wrong to say that a passage must mean this because it doesn’t fit in with my theology.
Shalom
Bo,
Please explain to me what your position is, in case I don’t understand, either. You said that believers DO NOT have to obey the Law of Moses on LOF? If so, what are we debating about?
Dan1el,
You wrote:
Answer to #5
Did you read my posts # 182 -184? I will post them again so that you do not have to search for them.
What about Colossians Chapter Two?
This is a short commentary, of sorts, on certain aspects of the misunderstanding of modern Christianity concerning Colossians chapter 2. Some portions of this passage have not been included for the purpose of being able to clearly deal with certain topics without bringing in issues that might sidetrack the thought processes, and not for the purpose of skirting the other important issues that Paul discusses in this text.
Colossians 2
2 …to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[Let the reader note that the phrase, “Lest any man should beguile you” is the beginning of a repetitive warning by Paul to the Colossians. There was a concern that “enticing words” would sway these believers away from the wisdom and knowledge of YHWH the Father and Messiah the Son; that some supposed good sounding idea of “man” would corrupt them and cause them to believe in and practice something other than the “wisdom and knowledge” of YHWH. The Colossians needed to realize that there was not something being hidden from them that some manmade philosophy or tradition could enlighten them about regarding their worship of and service to YHWH. All they needed to know, or that there is to know, is in plain view via the Law and the Prophets and the message of the Gospel of Messiah. There were no close-kept secrets or mysterious revelations to be initiated into. YHWH has revealed His truth, the truth, for all to see and participate in.]
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[Here we have it restated as, “Beware lest any man spoil you…after the tradition of men.” The “rudiments”/basic principles (Strong’s #4747) of the world are in opposition to Messiah and His teachings. In Hebrews 5:12-6:2 we find that there are also basic principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747) of the oracles of YHWH and the doctrine of Messiah. These oracles of YHWH and the basic doctrines of Messiah are equated by the writer of Hebrews. We would expect nothing different, because the Father and the Son are one. They are in agreement with each other. “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17, 19-20) We can be preserved or spoiled…sanctified or corrupted. It all depends upon whether we live by every word of YHWH or by the traditions and philosophies of men.]
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[We would expect that, since the “fullness of the Godhead” dwells in Messiah, He would not have some different “wisdom and knowledge” than that of the Father. It is “philosophy and vain deceit” of man that would conclude that YHWH and Messiah have different ideas or contrary commandments or that there are other “anointed ones” that have more or deeper or fuller revelation. Messiah stated it very succinctly when He warned us to “think not that I am come to destroy/abolish/make void the law and the prophets.” (Mat. 5:17) The law and the prophets are called the “living oracles” or the “oracles of God” by Paul, Stephen and Peter. (Acts 7:38; Rom. 3:1-2; 1 Pet. 4:11) Messiah is the Word Made Flesh. Whose word is He? Whose word did He live? His basic principles are the same as the oracles of His Father. There is nothing to be added or explained away or spiritualized. All we need to know is wrapped up in Y’shua’s life and teaching.]
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[We are “complete in Him” and do not need the ideas of men to inform us about our devotion to YHWH. Doing what the Word Made Flesh did and taught is all that is required of us. Messiah said, “All power in heaven and earth are given unto me.” (Mat. 28:18) “Principality” (Strong’s #746) and “power” (Strong’s #1849) are words used in the NT to denote positions of government and also the men that hold those positions. It is only by extension and with words of clarification that these Greek words are used of “heavenly” or “spiritual” or “Invisible” positions or beings. That there are “spiritual” or “heavenly” or “invisible” principalities and powers behind the men that hold the earthly positions is true, but even in those cases we must deal directly with the humans involved just as Y’shua dealt directly with the human element during His ministry.
Paul, in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, demonstrates this principle. He does not fight with a physical sword, but with words. Words are very powerful. He uses words, speaking both the scripture and its applications along with logical arguments, to cast down imaginations in people’s minds that are contrary to knowledge of YHWH. He did it in person and in written form. Even in the passage we are discussing, we see that he appeals to the Colossians with logical arguments as to why it is not appropriate to submit to the teachings of men that are contrary to the Father’s and the Son’s “wisdom and knowledge.” He is casting down a wicked idea/imagination.
In Luke 12:11 we find the first use of these authority terms together in the NT scripture: “And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates (Strong’s #746), and powers (Strong’s #1849), take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:” We see here the very same sentiment that Paul expressed. Namely that YHWH’s words will be given to us to wage a spiritual battle against the men that are the very “principalities and powers” to whom Y’shua was constantly showing their absurdities and misuses of scripture by use of His words of “wisdom and knowledge” of scripture. This is exactly what Colossians 2:15 is saying.]
15 And having spoiled principalities (Strong’s #746) and powers (Strong’s #1849), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…
[What is the “therefore” there for in verse 16? It is showing that the men that were in leadership (principalities and powers), having been shown to be insubordinate and that were subsequently unseated, do not have any authority to rule in matters of scriptural observance. (Mat.21:23-46) We are warned again to “Let no man judge” us BECAUSE of what Y’shua did to prove the absurdity of the religious leaders’ ideas of what constituted obedience in these areas. YHWH’s scriptural observances are not to be contaminated or replaced by man’s worldly principles, traditions and philosophies. We are to adhere to the “wisdom and knowledge” of Messiah and YHWH.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many commandments of men to the “knowledge of YHWH.” Y’shua had made these authorities look like fools in reprimanding them about their ideas… especially concerning food and drink, and Sabbaths…not to mention many other topics. He truly “triumphed over them” in a very public and humiliating way in these confrontations. Thus we read, “…neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Mat.22:46) Though He rebuked the “principalities and powers” concerning their manmade rules, He continued to keep Torah perfectly and He did not teach His disciples to do anything differently than He was doing. He sanctified Himself by keeping YHWH’s commandments and expected this lifestyle, void of manmade additions, to be the sanctification of His disciples and the sanctification of those that would believe through their word. (John 17:17-20) He did not come to make the law void. (Mat. 5:17-19) He did not die an agonizing death in our place because of our transgressions of YHWH’s perfect law, just to allow us to continue in transgression of YHWH’s instructions. He came to give us a new start, a new spirit, a new heart, along with the ability to obey YHWH.
We also should not to listen to the ideas of modern religious, even Christian, men in regard to how to, or whether to, keep YHWH’s feasts, new moons and Sabbaths…which happen to be part of YHWH’s perfect Torah…His oracles…His basic principles/rudiments. We are to cast down the arguments/imaginations of men that are contrary to the straight forward commands of scripture. When we submit to man’s ideas, instead of to the teaching of scripture, we are beguiled of our reward for obedience. So the exhortation stands…we are not to be intimidated into adhering to man’s additions to or subtractions from YHWH’s commandments. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…” (Rom. 6:16) We basically belong to and are thus sanctified (set apart) to the one whose ideas we accept and practice. Our loyalties reveal to us our hearts’ secrets that might otherwise go unnoticed because of our hearts’ deceitful ways. (Jer. 17:9) “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)]
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels (messengers), intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind,
[What is a fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind? Let’s use Paul’s definition for sake of consistency. “…the carnal (Strong’s #4561) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Rom. 8:7) So the carnal/fleshly mind is one that cannot or will not bring itself into agreement with YHWH’s Torah. It fights against YHWH and His rulership.
When we submit to messengers/preachers that tell us not to keep YHWH’s feasts and Sabbaths, we are being beguiled out of our reward. We are subjecting ourselves to prideful, carnal minded men instead of to the instructions of YHWH and thus we, also, are carnal minded. If we can be tricked into listening to great sermons and teachings on the meaning of the feasts and Sabbaths and continue to fail to keep them, we have been beguiled. If we have swallowed the idea, and thus many other things that the scripture says are not food, that the dietary laws were only until the refrigerator was invented or only until we learned how to cook it fully, we have savored a deception. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7) “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (Jam. 1:22) “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” (Rom. 2:13)
When we follow the additions of Judaism or the subtractions of Christianity, we are elevating man to the place of Elohim/judge. It doesn’t matter how old the tradition is or how new the great idea is. If it is causing us to disobey the “wisdom and knowledge” or the “oracles and doctrine” of the Father and the Son, it is robbing us of our reward. “So then they that are in the flesh (Strong’s #4561) cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:8) “For he that soweth to his flesh (Strong’s #4561) shall of the flesh (Strong’s #4561) reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Gal. 6:8)]
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[“The commandments and doctrines of men” are the things that we are not to submit to. We are supposed to have died to worldly principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747). We are supposed to be keeping YHWH’s and Y’shua’s principles/basics (Strong’s #4747). Everyone and every culture, even Christian culture, has their ideas about what is appropriate and inappropriate, what is tasty and disgusting to eat and drink. Will we submit to YHWH’s ingredient list or carnal minded man’s? Certainly the passage above is not saying that YHWH’s ordinances are worldly. From the context, the meaning in the above passage is obvious. We are not to submit to man’s ideas of diet, but we are to submit to YHWH’s definition of food and drink, and not to let man mix his vain deceit and philosophy into the recipe. It is quite telling when we realize that we brush our teeth every day and wash our hands before meals and after going to the restroom, but refuse to adjust our eating habits to match Messiah’s and the Heavenly Father’s. We will subject ourselves to man’s idea of cleanliness, but refuse to be clean by YHWH’s standards. Who are we sanctified to?]
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
[The commandments of YHWH are part of His “wisdom and knowledge.” Man’s carnal mind resists YHWH and comes up with other ideas. These ideas and practices may make us feel “satisfied,” ease our consciences, or assure us that we are more pious than others. They can seem like “wisdom” or look like “humility,” but true humility submits to YHWH’s word. True wisdom is to obey. “To obey is better than sacrifice…” (1 Sam. 15:22-23) The story of Saul being rejected from being king and subsequently losing the Spirit of YHWH is a solemn reminder to us not to listen to men…like Saul did…and not disobey YHWH’s command…like Saul did…and not be “beguiled of our reward”…like Saul was. (1 Sam. 15:1-35; 16:14)
When we only do the things that make sense to us, we are proud…not humble. It is a test of our humility and faith when we are asked to keep YHWH’s holy days, Sabbaths and dietary ideas. It is faithfulness in the little things that proves our wholehearted devotion. “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much…” (Luke 16:10) Messiah told us what would bring us a great reward. He said, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 5:19) Are we going to accept these basic principles of the doctrine of Messiah or let the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of men trick us out of our reward?]
“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” (Psa. 19:7-11) It will truly be a “great reward” when we are elevated by Messiah to a high place in His coming kingdom, but this will only happen to those that humbly submit to YHWH’s ideas in the here and now. “Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 18:4) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:” (1 Pet. 5:6)
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Rev. 22:14) Not to be allowed entrance into the New Jerusalem or to partake of the tree of life would be quite the opposite of a great reward. What are we being beguiled out of when we listen to men that teach us not to submit humbly to YHWH’s commandments? Maybe more than we had thought.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Gal. 3:21) Keeping the law is absolutely not against YHWH’s promises/rewards. As we have seen, keeping YHWH’s commandments brings great reward. Let me acknowledge, at this point, that no one can become righteous by keeping rules or laws, even YHWH’s perfect law. Even Y’shua was not righteous because He kept the law, and He kept it perfectly. Our Messiah kept the law because He was righteous. This is the way it is supposed to be for us also.
Keeping YHWH’s commandments is supposed to come from our having been made righteous by placing our faith in Y’shua’s sacrifice. We are to gladly present ourselves as living sacrifices out of gratitude. The only way to be a pleasing sacrifice is to live in accordance with the good, acceptable and perfect will of YHWH. The only way to know His will is to pay attention to His instructions that He has so graciously spelled out for us in the Scripture. (Rom.12:1-2) So it is not that we have to keep the commandments in order to partake of the tree of life. It is that our born again spirits working in conjunction with our minds, that we have been diligent to renew in the scripture, produce obedience in our lifestyle. It is a process. For the most part, it does not and, indeed, should not need to be a painstakingly slow one. YHWH’s written word is easily available to most all of us in the West. We can simply read through the Bible, putting the things we read into practice as we go by the power of YHWH’s Spirit of grace. Within a year or two, or at the most three, we can become significantly better at being “doers of the word.” (Luke 13:6-9; James 1:21-25)
Peter said of Paul that his writings were difficult to understand and that the unlearned twisted them to their own destruction…becoming law breakers. (2 Pet. 3:15-17) We can fall into that trap ourselves. When we have listened to the doctrines of men and have adopted their ideas as our mindset, we can inadvertently reject the basic principles of YHWH’s perfect instructions. Paul is difficult to understand when we do not know the foundational teachings of Messiah, which are the same as the oracles of YHWH…the Law and the Prophets. (Heb. 5:12-6:2) Paul instructed Timothy to use the Law and the Prophets to gain the wisdom and understanding he needed to be completely furnished in living right (righteousness) and knowing true doctrine. (2 Tim. 3:15-17) When we read Paul as saying something that contradicts the doctrine contained in YHWH’s “living oracles,” we have twisted his intent…we have been beguiled…we have been spoiled…we have had our reward stolen…we have let men judge for us what is righteous instead of subjecting our minds to YHWH’s law…we have become carnal minded…and we cannot see or understand that it has happened because we have deceived ourselves by not putting YHWH’s commandments into practice. (Jam. 1:22)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
Here is a compilation of Paul’s own explanations of what he was, and was not, saying in his writings:
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)
[YHWH’s law defines what is and is not sin. It cannot be wrong to do what it says to do. It has to be wrong when we fail to do what it says to do; because that would be sinning by Paul’s definition.]
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2, 15)
[Since sin is defined by the Law, breaking or transgressing the Law is sin. Grace does not allow us to continue to transgress YHWH’s rules in His Torah. If we are truly dead to sin and alive to YHWH, we will stop sinning/transgressing the Law. Grace is supposed to empower us by giving us a new starting place…as if we had never sinned/transgressed YHWH’s law. Our past transgressions do not count against us; so we can go forward with confidence. Without grace, there is no eternal reason to keep the law since we have already broken it with no hope of ever being able to make it up. With grace, we can be assured that our efforts to obey YHWH will be rewarded…if we let no man beguile us out of our reward with their doctrines and commandments of men.]
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom. 7:12, 14)
[The law is not a bad thing. How did we ever come up with the idea that something that was breathed by our loving Heavenly Father was other than spiritual, holy, righteous, just and good for us? We have bad ideas about it because of our carnal thinking.]
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
[When we do not want to do what the law says, we show that we are still carnal minded and that we are fighting against YHWH. If we renew our minds in the scripture and love YHWH’s instructions/Torah, we will begin to please YHWH by being obedient. Being subject to YHWH’s Torah is being spiritually minded. Rejecting His instructions in the Tanakh is indicative of a carnal mind.]
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
[Coming to faith does not exclude us from obeying YHWH’s instructions in His Torah; it empowers us to keep them because of grace. The law is established. It has a better foundation in our lives when we have repented for having broken it (sin), and received forgiveness. Now we can build with gold, silver and precious stones of obedience instead of with the wood, hay and stubble of man’s ideas that amount to disobedience.]
We can be cured. We can become doers of the word. We can renew our minds in YHWH’s Torah and present our bodies as obedient children, becoming living sacrifices. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:1-2)
It is simple, but it is not easy. It is difficult to stand in opposition to the traditions and commandments of men…especially of men we love and have been close to…of men that are our family…of men that have been our pastors and teachers. But we will be given the words to say when we are brought before our modern day “principalities and powers.” We may not convince them, but they will run out of truly scriptural arguments. It is difficult to get out of old ways of thinking and to stop participating in our old ways of doing things. Habits die hard, but we have been given the Spirit of Grace to change. We have been given the ability to truly love YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength…by keeping His commandments. That is how love for YHWH expresses itself.
Deuteronomy 7
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 11
3 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul…
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 14
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
The saints…those that are sanctified (set apart) to YHWH are called to keep their faith in Y’shua AND to keep YHWH’s commandments. To do one or the other does not wholly sanctify us. We must be sanctified (made holy) in both flesh and spirit. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Cor. 7:1) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Heb. 12:14) It is our call to cleanse ourselves in both areas by faith and works. Real faith always produces works. What we truly believe, we demonstrate to all by what we do. (Jam. 2:17-19) A faith in Y’shua that does not produce commandment keeping is either a false faith or an uninformed faith. We are not supposed to remain ignorant or unfaithful. We are to grow up and go on to perfection/maturity.
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection…
The basics of YHWH’s oracles are in need of being taught again because they have been ignored or slandered as legalism. We have seen that the “New Testament” has much to say about keeping the Father’s commandments. It is not legalism to keep them…it is pride and rebellion not to keep them. It is also fruitless to keep them in order to gain righteous status before YHWH. We cannot be saved by works, but we cannot be saved without works either. It takes FULL FAITH in Y’shua’s sacrifice that produces FAITHFULL-ness to YHWH’s commandments. “What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?” (Jam. 2:14) Men have beguiled us of our reward with their doctrines and religious philosophies that preach a gospel that produces a workless faith, at least as far as the works described in YHWH’s Torah/living oracles. We ought to be teachers by now. We ought to be doing and teaching others to keep YHWH’s commandments; not so that they can get saved, but so that they can “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” and not lose their reward. We ought to do this so that we won’t lose our reward too.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[Note: There are more NT passages that would show us that the definitions of “principalities and powers” is referring to men in positions of authority. (Luke 20:20; 1 Cor. 15:2; Eph. 1:21; Col. 1:16; Tit. 3:1) There is more NT scripture that would back up the idea of not submitting to man’s commandments and doctrines, but only and always to YHWH’s commandments. (Mat. 5:18-19; 15:9; 16:12; 19:16-17; Mark 7:7; John 14:15,21; 15:10; Rom. 3:31; 7:7; 16:17; 1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 3:21; Eph. 4:14; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; Tit. 1:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 3:4-8; 5:2-3; 2 John 1:8-11; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14) There are even NT passages that tell us to keep YHWH’s feasts, and passages that use the feasts of YHWH as time references when speaking to “gentile” assemblies. If they weren’t keeping them, these references would have little meaning to those once gentile believers. (1 Cor. 5:7-8; 16:8; Acts 12: 3; 13:42-44; 15:21; 20:6; 27:9; Heb. 4:9-10)]
Shalom
Dan1el,
You wrote:
I never said that we should be under the law. I never said that we could become righteous, be justified, or be saved by obeying the law. I never said that righteousness didn’t come by faith. I never said, “I never said” that many times in a row.
Shalom
Bo,
You are ridiculous! You skipped over Colossians 2:17 which show CLEARLY what he was illustrating!!
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath —
Col 2:17 these are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Did you think I would miss that? You really are something else!
Keeping kosher, moedim, new moon, shabbat ARE JUST SHADOWS OF THINGS TO COME, SO DON’T LET ANYONE PASS JUDGMENT ON YOU CONCERNING THESE !!!!
Bo,
Please, then, tell me what is the point you are trying to make; I really don’t understand.
Bo,
If you “never said” any of those things, we have nothing to talk about. However, I learned a ton more about my position during this process. Thanks.
Dan1el,
I had forgotten that I didn’t include that verse, as I have been in the process of writing that paper for about a month. Sorry. I mentioned that I was leaving certain verses out for the purpose of not getting side tracked. Give me a few hours and I will see if I can formulate a response for verse 17.
The point that I am trying to make is that when we start with an idea or paradigm and are looking for ways that to fit verses of scripture into it, we end up rejecting what the text says. If we build our idea, philosophy or paradigm with every brick of scripture we should be able to let each passage speak for itself. We will not need to force a certain problem sized brick into a some hole in the wall or break parts of it off, because we will put it in the wall and build around it with bricks that fit beside it.
Let’s look at the pretrib rapture as an example. If we start with the idea that YHWH would never allow his children to suffer, we will end up with a different view of certain passages than what they straight forwardly say. If we build our doctrine with every passage of scripture we will realize that pretrib is not true. We need to be careful not to start with an idea and try to prove it.
Shalom
Dan1el,
Those things that I never said…how do they stop the conversation?
Shalom
If you two would like to go another two or three hundred posts (smile) I would be happy to send my latest Bible study (25 MSWord pages) just completed (and for you, Bryan, and Dr.Brown, if you wish; just ask) somewhat color-coded with blue for the Father, red for the Son, yellow highlight for the Spirit, and purple for what i call the Remant Bride paradigm. I am usually directed by the Spirit by topic: this normally means a particular Hebrew or Greek word with selected passages. This study covers some of the ground you have investigated, and a whole lot more. You can jot me a note to my e-mail at cherubcalf@earthlink.net if you don’t want yours being made public (may GOD forbid any spamming or virus attacks on mine). Since you both like doing this so much, it wouldn’t hurt to see how an elder studies the Bible.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
In answer to number 5.
I posted this on LOF a while ago.
I think that an unbiased look at Colossians 2 would not come to the conclusion that the believers in Colosse were being judged for not keeping Sabbath, new moons and feast days but that they were being intimidated by commandments of men on how to keep them. That the feast days “are” shadows of things to come and the body of Messiah should clue us in that they are still to be kept in anticipation of their future fulfillment and also in celebration of what has been accomplished in the past on those days.
Lets take a look.
Colossians 2
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[The principalities and powers being spoken of here are the Jewish religious leaders that had hijacked the Torah and had corrupted it by adding to and taking away from it.(Luke 12:11; Titus 3:1) Messiah consistently made them look like fools when they tried to impose their commandments of men on His disciples…esp. concerning Sabbath observance and eating. (Mark 7:1-9; Mat. 12:1-8)]
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; and the body of Christ.
[It says not to let the religious leaders judge them in respect of a holy day. It does not say don’t let them judge you for not respecting a holy day. It does not say, “The reality is really Christ.”, but that these things “are” (present tense in the Greek) shadows of the body of Messiah…that’s us! These things still “are” (present tense in the Greek) a shadow of things to come and the body of Messiah. They are prophetic displays of our betrothal and marriage to Messiah. They are not outdated celebrations of past events. They are everlasting ordinances and will be kept even during the Millennium. (Isa. 66:23; Eze. 45:21; Eze. 46:1; Zech. 14:16)]
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of ministers, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[We are not to submit to vain and proud men but unto YHWH. His Torah tells us how to keep the feasts, Sabbaths and new moons. It tells us what is to be eaten and not eaten. Proud man wants to have his ego stoked by getting others to do things his way…effectively being worshiped by his followers.]
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[It is the commandments of men that is being spoken against in this passage. Not the commandments of YHWH. The ordinances of man that say that we must not eat meat or drink alcohol or that we can eat pork or that we do not have to keep the Sabbath and YHWH’s feasts is the wisdom of the world and not true scriptural doctrine.]
I posted this quite a while ago on LOF>
The feasts ARE still a shadow of things to come. The still represent things that will happen concerning our marriage to Messiah. The verse says “are” not “were.”
Colossians 2
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; and the body of Christ.
In 1 Corinthians Paul commands them to keep the feast, not only without the old leaven, but also without malice and wickedness. The Greek word of “malice” in this verse means: wickedness that is not afraid to break laws. Which is what at least one Corinthian was doing in that he had married his father’s wife…which is prohibited in Leviticus. So he was breaking YHWH’s law.
1 Corinthians 5
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
So our keeping of the feasts is supposed to represent what is true in the spirit. Our ignoring YHWH’s set apart times is not taught in the NT. Even the Thessalonians knew about the appointed times of YHWH. Paul told them that Messiah would return for them on the feast of trumpets.
1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
chapter 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
If these people were not ignorant of YHWH’s appointed times, we should not be either. Messiah is returning for His bride on YHWH’s feast that shadows it. His wrath will be poured out on the day that shadows that. The wedding feast of the Lamb will happen on the feast of tabernacles.
What would we say of a bride that didn’t rejoice, and even ignored, the dates of the anniversary of the significant events in her relationship to her supposed beloved?
I posted this a on LOF a long time ago.
Colossians 2 does not say, “don’t let the word of YHWH be your final word on what to eat or drink.” It says, “Let no man judge you.”
That we are no longer under the law does not mean that it does not tell us what sin is. It means that our past offences are pardoned. We do not have to pay the penalty for repented of sins.
Shalom
Ron,
How old of an elder are you?
Shalom
Bo,
There’s no debate, then; we’re on the same page.
Dan1el,
So that means that you think that we are supposed to use the Law and the Prophets for our instruction in righteousness, to get our doctrine, and to be fully furnished unto good works?
Shalom
Bo,
As long as what ever that means is not “those who are led by the Spirit are under the Law”.
Dan1el,
It means that we are to apply ourselves to obeying YHWH’s torah because we love Him and because it tells us what things are right and loving to do.
Shalom
And holy, don’t forget holiness to YHWH.
Bo,
Didn’t you say we were not under the Law?
Bo,
So, what you’re saying, now, is “those who are led by the Spirit ARE under the Law (contrary to Scripture [Gal 5:18]) ?
“under the law to Christ” (1 Cor. 9:21)
9 yr. an elder by Law, but still mounting up with eagle’s wings in the Spirit.
Making Love is so much more enjoyable (and important for pro-creation) than a sword-fight: see Song of Songs 6:10-13, & chapter 7.
I’m offering you both free rocket-fuel to soar higher in the Spirit. “Freely you have received; freely give.” I will post to my list before Shabbat begins.
In Him, Ron M.
Dan1el,
I am saying that keeping the law is not being under the law. I am saying that being led of the Spirit never causes us to ignore or transgress the law. For when we live in transgression of the law we are under the law and not being led of the Spirit. I noticed that you had nothing to say about my explanation of Colossians 2. Does that mean that I have won the debate?
Shalom
Ron,
Is that 49, 59, 69…?
Shalom
Bo,
1. Your argument is empty, and I’ve already answered it: you ignored the most important verse, so that you could manipulate the text to say something it never said.
2. So, you DO say “those who are led by the Spirit ARE under the Law”, which is contradicting Scripture [Gal 5:18], (you just don’t like the wording Apostle Paul uses; you use your own “spin”, but you mean the very thing he is opposed to) and you have finished yourself off by that statement. You are directly contradicting Scripture, and there is nothing but repentance that you can do that can rectify that: you were being dishonest when you said “I never said” we were under the Law.
Levites were “of service” from 25 to 50, later (by David) counted from 20, as apprentices, I suppose.
I am not a legalist. “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” Occasionally (not often) I even eat pork; but it isn’t good for me (nor shrimp or lobster, for that matter: more incompatible for digestion).
But get a decimal degree off, and you can miss the moon a thousand miles. Mathematical science must be precise; but when it comes to metaphysics, anything goes; go figure. Of course, the Saducees didn’t believe in eternity, either.
Dan, it seems that you are saying that Galatians is better than Ephesians or Corinthians. Isn’t this argumentative?
Dan1el,
Just because you do not understand that someone can keep the Torah and not be under the law, doesn’t make it not true. Paul kept the law after he was saved. So did Peter, James and John. Were they under the law? I did not lie. You just can’t wrap your mind around what I and the scripture are representing.
What is the most important verse to which you refer? Lay it on me, even though you reveal your prejudice by stating that there is a verse that is of more importance than the others.
Shalom
Ron,
I am a raw vegan (except the few meats I eat — to get B12 — until I can afford a supplement); my diet doesn’t need to “conform” to the Law, because it exceeds it (because I seek the benefit): we do greater works than Jesus.
Bo,
So, you obey the Torah, but you’re not “under the Law”?? Is it in the Torah to spew venom at your brothers who Jesus purchased with His Blood, and tell them they are “mentally deficient”? Come off it: you need the grace of God — your “Torah-keeping” is a false hope.
But, in your own way, you’ve half-way confessed that all who are “led by the Spirit are not under the Law” — I agree.
Dan1el,
If I am remembering correctly, it was your spirit led posts that contained the spewing venom.
You Wrote:
I do not hope in Torah keeping. I keep torah because I have been given hope through Y’shua’s sacrifice. We do not agree. You think that the Spirit will lead us to break YHWH’s Torah. Paul and I think that the Spirit will cause us to keep Torah. You version of being spirit led seems quite askew from what Paul talked about.
You wrote on LOF: August 22nd, 2011 @ 9:39 pm
You wrote on LOF August 22nd, 2011 @ 11:01 pm :
You wrote August 22nd, 2011 @ 11:23 pm:4
Dr. Brown wrote July 22, 201:
Dr, Brown wrote October 14th, 2011 @ 7:13 pm:
I do not remember saying that you are mentally deficient. But I agree with Dr. Brown that you think you are the judge of what things are scripture and you attempt to change the ones you do accept to what you want them to mean to fit your judgment of what is correct. Here is an example:
You wrote:
I think that you are bringing you preconceived ideas to the scripture again…and leaving much out…and destroying one scripture by misusing another.
What you are saying is that Paul in 1 Timothy 1:8-10 is contradicting what Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Are there two different Pauls?
1 Timothy 1
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Paul in 1 Timothy 1:8-10 tells us to use the law lawfully to expose the unrighteousness, disobedient, unholy and “any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.” He is telling us in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 that we should use the law for instruction in righteousness, doctrine, and explaining good works. Are not these two sides to the same coin? Do they not tell us the same thing…that the law is good and holy and should be used to know what is the correct and incorrect belief and behavior?
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If what Paul means by the law was not made for “a righteous man” is that believers should not use it, why does he tell Timothy to use it for doctrine and instruction in righteousness…that the man of YHWH be fully furnished unto all good works? Is Paul saying that Timothy wasn’t a believer? Did Timothy go from being a believer at the time that 1 Timothy was written to being a nonbeliever that needed the law to lead him to Messiah when 2 Timothy was written? I think that that is the only way that your logic will hold up. It cannot be that the law is only for the unbeliever in 1 Timothy and that the man of YHWH may be perfect in 2 Timothy.
Maybe you do not think that there are two different Paul’s. Maybe you think that there are two different Timothys. One was righteous…1 Timothy, and one was an unbeliever 2 Timothy. I guess he could have had a split personality. Or maybe Paul changed his mind. Or maybe senility had set in. Or maybe the two passages are in agreement. Maybe you trying desperately to force your philosophy, doctrine and tradition into the scripture, for without such the two passages agree that the law teaches us about righteousness and true doctrine. Maybe the following quotes show your prejudice.
Shabbat Shalom
Bo,
Some of what I said was not of God; maybe it is best for me to not continue this discussion if I can’t stay in the Spirit throughout the discussion.
Been nice.
TTYL
(i.e.: “spraying the site with grafitti”)
See you on Judgment Day.
A long time ago (in posting # time, not days) Bryan asked for some synopses, so I think I am ready to give mine:
on Shabbat? Well, Jesus healed on the Sabbath. I am learning to “Enter His Rest” on a continual basis (like “praying without ceasing”) in the positional Spiritual Sanctuary, though taking a day off every week is certainly good for the body; but this is not work to me.
Paul says many marvelous things by the Spirit of GOD; but he is not GOD; so I don’t have to follow his example completely; nor want to. If it weren’t for Jesus of Nazareth, I probably wouldn’t be a part of any religious structure at all.
Paul’s debate in Galatians (ignoring his other epistles for the moment) seems to say to me: Word (Law inclusive) OR Spirit. The Jerusalem Church disagreed, with James giving the “official” answer: Word AND Spirit. This is my personal understanding.
It is easy to win every debate when you are the only one allowed to speak. Some (not all) of the fruit of Paul’s Galatian doctrine has been everything from the Pope to Universalism (again, my understanding) because of the “license” given by the spirit (not necessarily “holy”) without law. As I am not allowed to speak in MOST ecumenical, evangelical, or pentecostal circles (not being recognized “a leader” by submission to their rules) I began writing; so VOR seemed like a good place to try my hand in the Love of the Spirit AND the Word of GOD. I have given my answer; it is now up to the founders of VOR to give theirs.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
Ron,
It’s unclear to me what your main premise is here. I have not been involved with your dialogue/debate until now.
1. What are the issues that you feel would prohibit you from speaking in “MOST ecumenical, evangelical, or pentecostal circles”?
2. What in Paul’s example do you feel it is unnecessary to follow?
Grace,
BP
Bryan, thanks for responding.
With all due respect, sir, I will give you the answer that came to mind this morning; then I will give you a more in-depth one.
If I had followed the Obey Your Leader Discipleship Course many years ago, I may have already started the My Plate’s Full School of Reformed Theosophy; it’s probably best for us all that this didn’t happen.
Really, I am not against leadership; but, as you said yourself in the opening article, there have been (many hundreds) of weird and cultlike activities that have branched off from mainstream denominations. How did this happen? You may have more resources at your fingertips on the history of all this; I simply call it the Old (Present) Wineskin.
It is evident that following Moses can lead to what I call the Pharisee ditch; and almost everyone I know that has endeavored to follow Yeshua Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, have eventually stayed on-track (my own backsliding being about as bad as it can get, before I rededicated over 22 yr. ago); so really, this only leads teachings of Paul, twisted, but based on freedom in the spirit (apart from law) and man’s (self-appointed) leadership to form the “cheap grace” or “new age” ditch on the other side of the Straight and Narrow Highway. Why do I keep repeating this?
Because we are getting extremely close to the separation of the apostate Whore of Babylon from the Apostolic Remnant Bride. This is a prophetic declaration in a mostly one-fold (out of five; the others considered lesser-than or having died out) Pastoral pulpit that traditionally does not allow anyone but the senior “reverend” to speak in almost any Sunday (or any other day) setting, as you well know.
Where is their room for caucus or discussion, as Jabez Hart has endorsed? Nowhere yet that I know of. Because Jesus HATES the “deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans” (Rev. 2) the clergy-laity tradition is at best an old dispensation that must die before He returns for His Bride.
I challenge this old church structure Biblically quite a bit, including Tithing. For two decades, the solution has been to ignore me or make sure that I feel unwelcome, hoping that I starve to death. But GOD has provided, and many of my Watchman warnings have proven accurate; so perhaps you would like to explore some of this more, in VOR or otherwise?
“We ought to obey GOD rather than men.” In a corporate setting, who becomes judge of this? This is the problem. If Paul’s Bishop /Deacon hierarchy is exactly what GOD wanted (usurping His Only-begotten Son’s testimony) we should all be Catholic: they have the longest-running and best example of this, despite the thousands of flaws. If you agree with me to disagree, then we need a lot more imput.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
Ron,
In your mind, what is “Paul’s Bishop /Deacon hierarchy” and how does it “usurp His Only begotten Son’s testimony”?
Thanks,
BP
BP,
I don’t think I can specifically answer any better than blog #1 and #7.
I challenge the assertion that Paul was made GOD by being declared Scripturally inerrant by Constantine in 325 A.D. This revisits the entire concept of inerrancy, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers.
My outline would start with the Ten Commandments are Absolute; Revelation is Absolute, even though, like Daniel, there are many interpretations that are difficult to understand; and the Four Gospels are Absolute, insofar as there are discrepancies in placing them side-by-side because they are written by four different men.
By the Word of the LORD in Ezekiel 20:25, GOD declares that the TOTAL Law is not Absolute, that is, it is subject to “fulfillment”, which opens the door to dispensation doctrine. Paul challenges the Law as Absolute; but why, then, should his own words be made Absolute, even when he says that it is him speaking, and not the Holy Spirit?
Flying over the forest of this debate, not marking every tree, you see that the first half of Dan & Bo’s argument centers primarily on the Pentateuch vs. Galatians; but the second half then becomes primarily about Galatians vs.Timothy: Paul vs. Paul. It appears that we cannot go forward until there is made some statement about this that we can agree upon, or choose to go elsewhere.
My Jewish philosophy professor in college convinced me that there is more to Christianity than sitting in a pew listening to the salvation message every weekend for the rest of my life. However, there was much dangerous collateral damage in his teachings. Who, where, and when has a lot to do with our individual testimony; but a council of agreement seems like a GOD idea to me; and it won’t come from the Vatican; or Oxford and Cambridge, or Harvard, Princeton, and Yale; nor the Brooklyn Watchtower Society; nor Salt Lake City, as far as I am concerned, that I would listen to, or obey.
In Him, Ron M.
RDM,
I am not certain you have addressed BP’s inquiry with discernable answers. You seem to be looking into church history beginning in the fourth century, when evangelicals and Biblical scholars attempt to return to the basic texts for their doctrinal, church government, and way of living authority. I wrote you on another comment section that a false dychotomy seems created by trying to divide Paul’s Roman’s doctrinal statements, and later Roman forbearance of those weak in the faith from the teachings of Jesus. Paul was taught Judaism, then by Risen Jesus, then of the Damasus elders, then by Barnabus about the Way and its foundations of truth and grace. If church history has misinterpreted Paul, we are not required to. Yet too, as to basic doctrines of the faith, church government, ministry, appointments of elders, gifts in operation, etc. Jesus is silent where Paul is most instructive. Few today would regard Paul as inseparable from the godhead as to his inerrancy, yet too as essential to the coming of the Gospel Message and Church planting and government into the nations.
Jabez,
It is easier to make some sort of general statement than when we begin to talk about particulars; for example, tithing, which certainly is mentioned in the NT. However, most denominational statements of faith are generic and woefully lacking as to particulars; it is only after you join up that you begin realizing all the tradition behind the current theme.
I have just seconded your motion for a Call to Council on LOF. How on earth can this be accomplished? As in Heaven, let it be hoped. Will this become a vanguard of the Messianic Movement in America, or a rehash of the old Moral Majority platform? This is putting all we understand about Paul and the Law to the test. It is considerably more than a religious exercise; the immediate future of the U.S.A. may hang in the balance. We are not telling people how to vote; but we should, as Christians, be able to define our values as a measuring rod.
In Him, Ron M.
I am trying to reverse the field, so to speak, and find places of agreement, instead of the many places of disagreement. You should get full credit for discerning the vision for Council; and I know that your interest is more in the Spiritual than the political.
Let me give you one example of what we are up against: Romans 13:1-7. If I take these verses literally, Dr. Michael Brown has no right to criticize either Pres. Obama or Hillary Clinton, as they are the GOD-ordained leaders of our land. So, around 1980, an apologetics alternative came to focus: only when a Republican becomes President can this Scripture be fulfilled. This interpretation allows all “GOD-fearing” citizens to bless Republican leaders no matter what they do; and curse Democrat leaders no matter what they do. To me, this is the height of the hypocrisy of the clergy-laity model.
In addition, this contradicts Jesus when He tells Pilate, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” So we bow the knee to Jesus in religious homage, but follow Paul. I am not trying to start another argument; I am saying that this still hasn’t been sorted out after @1900 years; so what is the secular world supposed to think?
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
If you could answer my question from #247 that would be helpful. I read a few of the posts you recommended, but it seems unclear to me still what you’re seeking to emphasize.
Thanks,
BP
According to Rudolph Steiner, who wrote anthroposity and theosophy educational works, all religion is the same. He upheld Buddha as equal with Christ and vice-verse. In his assertions, where all alike religious noble ideals of such supposed enlightened ones are recognizable as similar in intention among theosophists written works, such model personality commiserate spirits are equating a similar personal identification as approachable for an alike realization of any theosophical person becoming such a recognized leader as these cited profiled Ones. This supposedly happens by what Steiner described as an alike self devotion and realization experience (as is then assumed so of anyone becoming a so-identified as enlightened religious leader). By an idealized process equalizing such leaders cited being seen as achieving a common noble state of divinity the unique testimony of the eyewitnesses of Jesus becomes ignored altogether for its distinctions of Jesus from other supposed leaders. Everything should be copacetic in life and religion according to the theosophist view, and so by its so-called inner peace actualization movement, which leads to a harmonious non-strifeful positive world realization that what is divine as was once unknown is brought about of the true self advancing to an attendant noble presence of being.
This self is not of self as in selfish ego self, or man or woman self, or materially or powerfully possessive self, but as is the linked and connected greater self flowing with “all of life” seen as composed of all who have past and presently lived with relative harmony. So, equalizing all life as so ideally linked is in this notion of a joined self coming into a greater self realization, as being One of more than individual personality, as is a Self absorbed into a greater consciousness or realization of the connectedness of all life. This supposedly becomes achieved by a common meditative pursuit. Devotional hours are then part and parcel to the process. And so, such a state is affirmed as attainable according to Steiner’s and other theosophists’ expectation of an ideal state of being. It includes a pantheistic and collective consciousness notion of a stream of life in which one will be absorbed for a greater good than even morality can achieve in its relative applications. It excludes the Kingdom of God as being in Christ, for, it ignores time and space where it attempts to equalize human experience as is sought of a “stream of life” continuum. This is complete as literally unseen, while it is to be inwardly self realized as a common collective soul past and present flowing current moving toward a greater spiritual sea (so to speak.)
At the same time that the western and eastern world has turned increasingly toward such a collective philosophy of religion as just given above, as incorporating too elements of sociology and politics, the collective view forefront ideals are increasingly ignoring the reconciliation established of a Biblically identified fallen humankind to God as its once unapproachable creator-father. This New Covenant offer for relationship extending from heaven to earth, rather than through a meditative on earth process, comes to be understood solely through the Message of propitiation of the Cross of a literal-historical-appointed-as anointed Jesus as Christ (sent into this world into time, space, race, for a revelation context, and to a place to live a life to undo the works of the flesh, the devil, and the world. Linkage to the world as the theosophist sees granting a commonality of all life, which scripture views as a web of an essential bondage). The world is good according to theosophy, just acting in ignorance of a common light when and where waxing negative. The world is seated in the evil one according to the Bible, and needs to change to conform to the revelation of God in Christ’s provisions for reestablishing a relationship to God as Father God.
Cross reference the US State Department now moving to equalize homosexuality in a theosophical sense as being a civil human life “right” for all internationally. Note this trend along with a disapprobation of past related laws’ aims toward social stability. Work up sentiment in the populist press to move against those laws past established referencing a Biblical acknowledgment on the matter, and it becomes paramount for human government to coordinate such life rights for races, and men, and women, and those of a new sexual politic as well. If this happens in a short season so to supplant the past socially unthinkable has not the populist audience been bamboozled? As to the signs of this time doing so what really is at hand in the substitution of a theosophic substitution of reality over a theological Biblical reality? An apostasy of Biblical renunciation plain and simple. A framework for a replacement criterion for a different socialization and normalization is moving from the recently established national rights agenda signed by the President of the USA both from and into international law toward co-exploitation of an exaggerated human rights domain becoming the internationally enlightened greater domain of choice than the Kingdom of God Himself. This domain then subtly works to supplant past governmental framing for the home anchored sphere of life of past civilizations’ reference to a Father God’s proofs of existence foundations known through creation: to an ever evolving humanistic intent of proportionate self fabrication.
In this sense, where the sociopolitical authority of a large world government advances such a sinless view of the sexual practices noted as an abomination in scripture, in calling these practices an equal right akin to all the stuff of family bonds, a major break with a greater Fatherhood relationship significance extended of God toward people is rejected. Homosex is upheld to equally form family associations by its own declaration as being of a greater human authorization than that eternally regarded as both authoritatively inscrutable and morally insurmountable. This notion of equality replaces the uniquely hallowed and inviolable sacredness of there being a self defining eternal “head” of the human family. This headship is not a notion in the Biblical worldview, it is a fact. A hallowed respect of a life designer being God the Creator then is removed from recognizable kinship, by human striving to insist on its own life validation control beyond the greater unfathomable ever sanctified reality.
Where such an agenda becomes an agenda of intention from here to wherever–as would then equate sexuality and sexual affiliation with an embrace of what Steiner idealized in his preNazi Germany’s anthroposity-liberality such is the stuff of a social collective realization possibility for its ideal person’s spiritual pursuit. Such religious and humanistic outlooks as those theosophic would be rejected as true by conversely identifying such a world view as mistaken in demonstrating the bonds and bounds of genuine life as purposed for glorifying God. This would become approved by upholding what Paul called in Romans 1 & 2 humanity’s state of depravity and only so approved. This state of humanity without relationship to the God head is as found declared by Paul and the Old Testament (Torah) exposure of sin as is described in scripture, and as this world of humanity has presently enmeshed its investments for sexual sin by pursuing a complete lack of reference to the revelation and holiness of Christ over creation. Over time theosophy has won its self deification pursuit reality as an ever widening reality inot all alike human religious espousal. Any devoted experience of its pursuit then can be justified as becomes deified by such a philosophy, where it is not permitted a context to standards of a greater awe discovered in Biblical scripture as such.
I give this contrast of theosophy’s melting pot of religion and devotion to the revealed Messiah visiting in time and place as was established in the framework of all revelation in creation itself as a background for responding to R. D. M. here because he has cited my name above without qualification other than my past made VOR references to a Call to Council for prayer to solicit the Father as One for his reaffirmation of His People’s purpose in the earth. Like Bryan P., I am attempting to understand his premise or thought development and assertions here. Part of me does understand the desire to transcend leadership to be One with the Father, as was Jesus in fulfillment of his calling, and part of me awaits greater clarification.
I am only sympathetic to what I believe he may be driving at in measure, regarding those not primarily recognized as leaders in assemblies coming into enabling for achieving valid Christian religious assembly implanted Christlike abilities occurrences: which edify others as much as those orchestrating from a preexisting recognized Biblical assembly leadership profile (as achieved to purpose ekklesia). Where opportunity is given to those presently not highlighted in religious assemblies for a considered ministerial profile of a Biblically advised assembly focus, enlarging criteria for achieving alike New Covenant ministerial functions may increase (where all know Him, from the least to the greatest, however an assembly operates may come to include the training and preparation of others for alike ministry). However, in the case of Christ establishing such ministry through assemblies, such is granted to achieve chosen as representative gifts and functions for a mutual edification of those in assembly. Where the focus shifts off the minister, on to the minister’s service to Christ, such opportunity shared with others of assemblies would shift mutual vessel recognition away from some onto others, at least in so far as I understand what Ron has past remarked in VOR comments sections.
He seems to hold a desire that such recognition and opportunity be made possible for others than primarily for one in regard to achieving a teaching or preaching mutual edification of others being alike in Christ in Christian assembly. This would be my own qualification so instrumenting a maturing model forleadership, where anyone wanting to express gifts in assembly would be accountable to the I Corinthian 4:5 service standard of the apostles sent to bring the Message of Christ to the world. Otherwise, why promote certain leadership for Kingdom ways and ends in the earth? Shifting to my own Call for a mutual Council of intention, the body of Christ in North America was my concern, as to it reestablishing a focus on the seven fold spirit of God necessarily working in combination with God’s people, word, and spirit for Christ’s purposes of conversion of the present generation. Without at least agreeing to a structured framework for mutual consecration through mutual prayer, futility of effort by time, placement, and energy may not solicit God’s own response to the need. Scripture prerequisites for calling such a consecration Council for agreement as One appeal to the potentials involved in changing the present course of the North American population.
Let me state openly that I believe the New Testament upholds leadership, beginning with God, Abraham, the Patriarchs, the Judges, Kings, the Prophets, Jesus, then with its mention of various appointments of apostleship, then to other kinds of Commission ministries, of the varied gifts given to the body of Christ on earth (of His Confessing People). The New Testament so upholds such appointments among believers: as to establishing order, content, and conduct in Ekklesia assemblies in their various places and placements. When a new local assembly came to be in NT times, it was accomplished by the appointment of elders, and many similar practices of local community alike to the prior existing Jewish Assembly Synagogues practices, where of a godly pursuit and devotion. Such include scripture reading, teaching, preaching, prayer for the sick, collections for the poor and needy, widows, and alike. The preexisting values of local religious community then were carried forward by the very way churches organized themselves. A focus too on the work and way of Jesus Christ, past, present and future also became the passion of the first love of those in fellowship.
Unfortunately, in the USA today, where religion is constantly reinventing itself: by meeting behavior pursuits and assumptions; of those assembled discipling to leaders varied pursuits; or where embracing leadership attitudes, and values by forms of pursuit in meeting based behaviors: these become ends unto themselves and can cripple the spark of life among the assembled. In such cases often Jesus is not the center of devotion, and His Apostle’s teaching is ignored through a cultural group awareness of their own inventions, and petty loyalties not of the Master’s intention for gatherings and mutual commiserations.
I am not an inventionist, or revisionist, but a Christian Messianic believer in Jesus Christ and of the teachings of the First Century Apostles. I believe in order in assembly, in New Covenant teaching, in pursuit of the Commission of Christ, and in areas of alike efforts at church planting, of assembly teaching, of gifts and ministry, and for devotional life. The Kingdom of God in Christ is a relational Kingdom, established of a conjoint effort, with boundaries as well as the liberty of the Law of Christ in effect for its outworking. It answers the questions of how then shall we live, and how then shall we glorify God in Christ. To call for a consecration intention Council for North America of all Christ related assemblies is to find and acknowledge the value of Christ in Us changing the course of North America. It is time we do this as One, as the Lord prayed for us to be.
I also hold a view that the 20th Century Charismatic movement went largely astray, and have written much on the VOR in the past on that matter and about its errant assumptions and pursuits not becoming present assumptions and pursuits. Basic issues of its dysfunction were wrought by making disciples unto human leaders themselves (not to Christ Himself), primarily made so by following petty human and religious behaviors loyalties practices in place of true faith, and by insisting on certain meeting based experiences, not thus established in following enactments of the impartiality and for the perfect love of God toward neighbors not in the assembly. This reasonable service is as founded in Christ’s word, model, way, and instruction. So, in my view, in instances of religious disorder, abuse, errant emphasis, and false teaching: confusion resulted, and an eventual scattering of God’s people to disillusionment happened. This movement did not result in a Christlike clarity, truth, grace, and an eventual gathering of God’s people coming to function in recognition of the Holy Spirit in Us as One.
Jesus prayed that we be One as He and the Father are One in John 17. This past movement then failed to uphold a maturing model of leadership by establishing its own lesser loyalties of lesser pursuits, in giving credence to phenomena, persons, and fervor for devotion and for self perpetuation of its forms of religion. Let us declare a consecration Council to invite in the might of God in Christ to change the course of North America has been my proposal. Certain humility can be learned as to how to go about the tasks involved, and confession and prayer involved, by the Asbury revivial model of 1970. It differs in not being personality driven from many other past models.
Change needed by the body of Christ for its own member’s fulfillment and significance then comes by devotion and prayer resulting in going back to the basics of the faith, as well as permitting a maturing model of leadership for attendees of religious meetings held in the Name of Jesus. In the arena of religious control, and liberty in Christ this would mean setting up a Council which permitsavenues of shared responsibility among those assembled, and aiding a right of passage, service, and calling to Christ Himself in serving others for His sake becomes the identified goal extended of a healthy Ekklesia. We cannot ignore the foundation laid–the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and His coming Day of accountability–nor can we ignore that He prayed for us to become One as He and the Father are One. Being known as a true witness by practicing a mature love instead of religious enthusiasm, or other agenda can be of a remarkable truth and grace of Jesus Christ’s followers seeeeking Him.
How this breaks out to practical and relational reality is indeed given by the Word and the Spirit of Jesus’ life story. These point to each other as balancing and interdependent in forming ongoing guides for our own gathering together. Ministry has been upheld in past pursuit of doctrinal preferences, of loyalties forming to this leader or insight, or that one, of this persuasion or that one, this emphasis, or that one. There is nothing wrong with ministry profiles of good report being established in assembling together, along with their recognizable gifts given to mutual edification and particular needs of the body. When personal growth is stifled without co-opportunity through assembly to come into the full stature of Christ as a purposed goal of pursuit of local assemblies accompanying the very pursuits of meeting together a mutual submission to the love of God is established. Often because of meeting teaching and communication being dominated by one voice, change is needed for the growth and development of others. This can begin by those of assemblies praying together as One.
In establishing ministerial profiles for our assembly submission, we have missed the opportunity to alike establish a maturing model for growing more leadership within our assemblies. A maturing model permits the full stature of Christ to work among us, not of one personality for the few. Missed opportunity to permit service to others of and beyond our assemblies, to neighbors not front and center by pulpit demand has occurred in our churches. Is cultivating a mutual recognition of ourselves and our leaders alike as being the servants of others for Jesus sake a maturing model? Permitting others to become mutually submissive as we may together be in submission to a Christlike relational model is our challenge of forming a Christ centered ongoing religious conduct. We are waiting for the eventual return of Christ, yet must make ourselves ready for that return. How will this anticipation become our focus as the Age we live in transpires?
Now, at the end of the Age, finding ways and means to bring others associated in our assemblies and ministries to assist in a common movement toward a full stature of Christ in attitude, purpose, gifts and actions seems to be the challenge set before us. Making provision for ensuring all callings and election of possibility among our assemblies being secured, as of an equal preference to hearing from those of recognizable minsterial profiles comes into view as Luke recorded such outworking by the spreading of the Message outward from Jerusalem accomplished in Acts by the many sent and working together as One. We have failed to recognize that the five ministries listed in Ephesians helped found the local assemblies abroad by their functions of mutual regard of the Commission. The Message is long established, divinely appointed, and fresh to each generation. It holds divine purpose and power. The purposes of assembly once the Message is accepted as central in purposes of its sharing are worked out together. Establishing a common call to prayer among all such assemblies can offer the opportunity for the Spirit of God in Christ to revisit His assemblies, and renew our mutual vision and expectation for the Bridegroom to anticipate the cooperation of His bride in becoming One.
The end of the first sentence of my fifth paragraph, above, now reads “a major break with a greater Fatherhood relationship significance extended of God toward people is rejected.” I now correct it to read “a major break with a greater Fatherhood relationship significance extended of God toward people is advanced while ignoring the care of God in Christ”. I thank all readers for their tolerance and endurance in so reading the above essay.
A second correction. The fourth sentence from the third from the bottom of the essay paragraph now reads
” When personal growth is stifled without co-opportunity through assembly to come into the full stature of Christ as a purposed goal of pursuit of local assemblies accompanying the very pursuits of meeting together a mutual submission to the love of God is established.” Its conclusion is the opposite of what is stated, i.e. “….a mutual submission to the love of God is NOT established.” It remains difficult to edit in the comments section submission box here.
Okay, let me put the tranny in reverse, and we’ll go from there:
On “usurping Jesus”: your comment: “Few today would regard Paul as inseparable from the godhead as to his inerrancy…” Really? A good friend in New England asked me if I thought my mentor IS the Holy Spirit; I had to answer “No.” I must answer the same concerning Paul. He developed his doctrine over the course of his epistles, so WHICH of Paul’s statements are ‘inerrant’? Are we allowed to pick-and-choose because of our own position, as Dan and Bo did for 200 postings? It is much different when I say that we both HAVE the Holy Spirit. I wanted Bryan to weigh in on your “Paul is inseparable from the godhead” statement, but he seems to come and go. So we’ll leave it there for now.
On the “Bishop/ Deacon hierarchy”: you said: ” as to basic doctrines of the faith, church government, ministry, appointments of elders, gifts in operation, etc. Jesus is silent where Paul is most instructive.” Really? The First Church of Jerusalem, where eleven apostles who walked with Jesus for three years began ministering, did none of this? I thought Paul said that he was sent to the Gentiles as Peter was sent to the Jews. And Paul disaasociated himself from it, not the other way around. The First Church set up an elder system very similar to the OT model, because they never cut themselves off from the Law, as Jesus never did. But Paul declared that the Law is “close to vanishing”, so he couldn’t use it to establish order in the Gentile Church. He had to set up a Bishop/Deacon system who would follow him instead of the “Judaisers”. This history is evident; what is not is whether this was 100% GOD-ordained.
I am glad that Paul’s epistles are in the Bible. It wouldn’t be the same without him. But giving Paul status right next to Mary’s “immaculate conception” (hers, not Jesus) is similar-type heresy: it exalts (wo)man as GOD.
I am praying about whether to continue this giving original Scripture examples, and how it is affecting the present political spectacle. Jesus tells us to “Bless, not curse”; Paul gives us an excuse to go on and curse. The latter shows up repeatedly in the LOF arena.
In Him, Ron M.
I would like to wish everyone a Blessed Christmas and New Year, even though the Holy Roman Empire began this calendar. I believe there is evidence that Jesus was born during the time of the Feast of Tabernacles; however, this would make His conception coincide with this time of year; so I can celebrate it, along with the Light-seed of Hanukah, together. As this is only my second extended-blog attempt anywhere, I leave you with a gift of what I prefer to do, and have done, for over two decades.
If Paul was correct and the Law was ready to pass away 1900 years ago, then surely these verses have no further value or meaning. What is your decision?
Gen. 1:2b wRWcH [Spirit] ALHYM [GOD] mRcHPT [moved]:
OT:7363 rachaph (raw-khaf’); a primitive root; to brood; KJV – flutter, move, shake
Deuteronomy 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
Jeremiah 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
Gen. 1:3 wyAMR [Said] ALHYM yHY [let there be] AWR [light]:
OT:559 ‘amar (aw-mar’); a primitive root; to say (used with great latitude): [5000 references; Dan. 9:4 last]
OT:1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root; to exist, come to pass (always emphatic): [3560 references]
OT:216 ‘owr (ore); from OT:215; illumination: [123 references]
Gen 1:4 wyRA [Saw] ALHYM at hAWR ky TWB [the good]:
OT:7200 ra’ah (raw-aw’); a primitive root; to see [1303 references]
wyBDL [divided] ALHYM byn hAWR wbyn hcHShK [darkness]
OT:914 badal (baw-dal’); a primitive root; to divide [42 references, selected:]
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Exodus 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.
Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
Leviticus 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
Numbers 8:14 Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.
Numbers 16:9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
Deuteronomy 4:41 Then Moses severed three cities on this side Jordan toward the sunrising;
Deuteronomy 10:8 At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.
1 Kings 8:53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD.
1 Chronicles 23:13 The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.
1 Chronicles 25:1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Ezra 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
Nehemiah 10:28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Ezekiel 42:20 He measured it by the four sides: it had a wall round about, five hundred reeds long, and five hundred broad, to make a separation between the sanctuary and the profane place.
Oh, and sorry, Bryan, I read too fast, and thought it was Jabez asking for a reply.
I am glad that you have involved yourself in the discussion, even at this late stage.
Please take the Call to Council seriously. The secular world will mock, of course; but GOD still works in mysterious ways. “Where two or more agree…” there are opportunities to change the world.
Love, Joy, and Peace in Jesus, Ron M.
RDM,
I have a rather long essay pending editor approval, so this response may prove to be disjointed. Pauline doctrine is considered inerrant, not Paul the man, as such. So, for example, he distinguishes his personal opinions on marriage from those of the Lord Himself in I Cor. 7, on marriage. I cite this as so, for no such distinction is made in, for example, Romans and Ephesians. It is a matter of whos who in the autoritative, not the authoritarian. Paul tells us to imitate him, as well as, of course, the way and commands of Jesus and the Law of Christ.
Again, RDM, you have looked into church history, in the First Century, to assert something. If we look into the missionary journies, and Paul’s evolution of statements about his own history in these, we begin to see Paul as shaped by his revelation of Christ, his conjoint efforts for the Commission with others also so sowing the word and acknowledging the work of the Spirit, and inevitable opposition and suffering. He is not in any sense declaring his person to be divine, but, as with the other apostles named so directly by Jesus, declarative of his person to be a bond-servant of Jesus Christ (II Cor 4).
The First Church followed “the apostles’ teaching.” The cannon reflects inspiration, direct revelation, modeling, the Life of Jesus, and the responsive Acts of the Holy Spirit and the apostles. It reflects that these chosen and sent ones followed John 13 through 17 as completely as humanly and adoptively possible.
I have no problem with Paul’s historical journey, or his general exhortations to the Early Churches. I have a lot of problem with his theology about the Law; for no one else in Scripture, including Jesus, holds to his doctrine, except the Gentile believers who learned to follow his example.
In a Call For Council, I would much prefer a model such that Paul and others went to Jerusalem as mssionaries for an open forum on how to procede, instead of where Peter went to Antioch and was rebuked. If we have to begin on Paul’s turf, there is much more chance for contention and strife. Try getting ten Pastors together to agree on anything vs. ten Worship Leaders. The latter is a much more pleasant experience (I have done this).
I have taken your vision and ran with it a bit: I see a Messianic Message 2012 as a declaration that can go out to the nations. I think some of the Republican candidates are close to begging for some Solid Ground on which they can stand, past the 1% endorsement. All that gold can’t buy them the election. The Tea Party is self-destructing on “no gov’t. is good gov’t.” ; so, they don’t govern. But letting bankers rule the world isn’t any more wise than letting Hillary dictate foreign policy (smile). To me, this is the fruit of Bishops and Deacons decreeing Biblical standards, rather than the Absolute Law that Father GOD wrote with His finger, and upon which our nation was founded. Another name for this is “relativism”.
There is enough airspace for all of us to soar in the Spirit. But get close to the flight deck, and you better have some order in the aircraft control tower. That is what I am requesting. But if this is just another Gathering of Eagles Conference to lock me in an aviary and feed me potato chips, count me out.
In Him, Ron
Acts 22: 1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.”
2 When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet.
Then Paul said: 3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5 as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.
6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’
8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked.
“ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
10 “‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked.
“ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.
12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’
19 “‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr[a] Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’
21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”
If risen Jesus then instructed Paul to say and do what he said and did, how can a follower of the New and living Way write “…I have a lot of problem with his theology about the Law; for no one else in Scripture, including Jesus, holds to his doctrine, except the Gentile believers who learned to follow his example?” It is Jesus who tells Paul what to do and say, where to go and be, and grants him a unique sorting out of the Law of Christ from the passing Law of Moshe. Even the Church at Jerusalem was warned by Jesus to flee when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. If their house was left unto them desolate, why return to “those weak and miserable principles?” All the apostles carry forward the living principles of law and the practice of the revealed law of liberty.
In determining the cannon from that time of church planting forward, it is no longer the testimony of the law which is upheld, but the testimony of and obedience to Jesus which John highlights of those, even in a future Jerusalem, who wash their garmets in the blood of the lamb at the end of the NT. Paul then is not opposing the testimony he was to bring, or Jesus would not have sent him at all, but is delivering it to the Gentiles (nations). Jerusalem’s own house based on the sacrificial system of the law and its priesthood was left desolate.
It is the Holy Spirit which empowers the early church, even from Jerusalem, to agree that the law was a great burden placed on “the necks” like a weight. Acts 15 then conducted an agreed change of burden to follow the way, and only four principles of the law of old. James was murdered by those jealous for the law. The church agreeing on what to carry forward moved in no wayto undermine or do away with the essentials of the Decalogue.
My vision of Council is simple and direct and is about consecrating a season of prayer by agreement as One body. If we believe in Jesus it is not divisive to agree together for a consecrated season of prayer by Council, by calendar framework, by interdependence with the Spirit and the Word. To seek empowerment without such a Council, as bysuccessful Council example by the Asbury model of 1970 (which is not personality centered but Christ dependent for change, as was Paul when going to the ground on the Damascus Road), is presently a wrong move, for Jesus instruction to wait for the Promise was His own First Century Council.
Our Council to move as One to seek His Face and blessing, as He and the Father are One, is based on His Will of John 17 to move and live and be of the New and Living Way as One. It is a chance to renew the relationship with the Father based on Jesus clearly stated will, seldom achieved in church history. “That they may be One as we are One”, as is clearly in the assignment given Paul directly by Jesus as well.
If I then moved against what Paul taught, according to what Jesus instructed Him, I would move against the will and very nature of the Spirit of God. Not wise, nor is it wise to add to this clarity for a three month season declared for repentant and devotional gathering in North America. I will not add to the vision, for that is what was received. Sela.
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RDM,
To understand along with the writer of Hebrews about the passing of the Old for the New and Living Way’s overarching administration is to see Christ Himself as the greater revelation and what came prior as the lesser revelation. This seems difficult for some commenters, and a matter of rejoicing for others. The Law was a schoolmaster for Paul leading him to Jesus along his sincere and zealous path to imprison followers of the Way. If it was a difficulty for him to center on Christ, and it will be so for some here. The power of salvation and a changed heart and life is the gift from above which the law could not grant its adherents. Its standards are well intended, but the power of Christ came of the life and provisions of Christ.
A few friends have asked how I am doing, in that cordial Christmas way, and I have not yet responded. This is because my testimony is much harder to give than what I normally do. Because I diligently try to stand on the Truth, I will try to be honest; so I will minister to you from my pain; but please help me, my GOD, for I really don’t know how to do this.
You see, my first-born son turns 30 in a couple of months, and he has had cerebral palsy since birth, and schizophrenia for over twelve years. GOD has done many healings in his life, but it is still a fairly rough go of it on a day-to-day basis; we need a real Christmas miracle as much as anyone.
A counselor told us recently, “your situation is hopeless; but not desperate.” But I thought we hit Rock bottom long ago; I don’t know how to express any more agony or anguish to my Maker than I already have; and we still praise Him. My father worked especially hard in the Fla. orange groves this time of year when I was growing up; I worked especially hard at the post office this particular season when my children were growing up; so I know the work ethic well; still, every Christmas gets a little harder materially, and we are left with less and less to fall back upon.
I have met a thousand deacons and bishops in my lifetime; but we (as I am part of the Church) are all hirelings who perform for a fee, and don’t know how to open the Door to others who desperately need salvation, deliverance, and healing. Do not be shocked by this statement; we all know it is true; this is the failure of the modern Church. We put on a good show, but can’t deliver the goods. So I say, be gone, all us wannabe Moseses and Pauls who build thick walls of affluence to drown out the screams of billions huddling in the dark and cold each night, shivering to stay alive. We have convinced ourselves of our own righteousness; but I don’t think we have convinced GOD.
Still, in this thick darkness, there is a Presence; the Urim and Thummin begins to glow, and the shape of a golden casket begins to emerge; not wanting to look at the dry bones inside, we simply stare; and then GOD BEGINS TO SPEAK TO US; or is it just the stirring of our own breath: Y (inhale) H (exhale) W (inhale) H (exhale)?
I MUST FIND THIS TRUE DOOR OF HOPE BEFORE I DIE. The blood and flesh of my Lord and Savior must become more than emblematic symbols; the miracle of the Message somehow must be etched into my forehead like a laser beam. Only then can I begin to begin to be satisfied; only then can the quest of my life’s journey be fulfilled. EMMANUEL, we need you now more than ever; please give us Your Revelation Light once again.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
Ron,
Shalom to you. My second born son, Caleb, got meningitis when he was 3 months old. From this, severe brain damage. He never walked, talked, fed himself, etc. We had to do everything for him. There was a time when we realized that there was no hope of recovery for him barring a miracle. So I guess that there was a glimmer of hope…a very small one. Our family, being a family and a large one, (10 children) didn’t do a lot of things that other families did because of Caleb. We suffered in ways that others did not. We had joys in ways that most will never know. One learns a lot in these situations. So we, as a family, got to learn to serve “one of the least of these my brethren.”
Well, as YHWH would have it, we needed to know more about trusting Him than most will have the opportunity to learn. I injured my back and couldn’t walk sometimes. Excruciating pain! I was bent over for years. I had to sell my excavation equipment and we used up most of our savings. We lived, a family of 12, on less than $20,000 a year for many years by miraculous provision. We had to move into the 800 square foot basement of our home and rent the top 2/3 to friends. 12 people in 800 square feet. Some of the children, the older ones that remember it best, say it was the best time our family ever had at being a family.
Most will never know how to believe that YHWH is our healer and that He heals today in the midst of overwhelming obstacles. Most will never know the simple joys of being held softly in YHWH’s hand. Most will never realize how it is for YHWH. I had one handicapped son. YHWH had only one nonhandicapped son. We are all handicapped children of the Heavenly Father. He has to do everything for us.
The shame, the heartache, the realization that he would never be able to experience most of the things that most of us do. I have 9 other children and have learned a lot from them. Not near as much as I did from Caleb. Caleb died in 2006 between Yom Teruah and Yom Kipur. He was 20. It was a long time that we took care of him. It took years after his death to stop waking up in the middle of the night to roll him over, he could not even do this when he was alive. We still have his wheelchair.
“No hope, but not desperate!” Hmmm! Desperate on what level? No hope! No hope of recovery is daunting, almost suffocating sometimes. It comes in waves. The waves cover us and we choke and sputter and flail till we realize that there is still a very secure rock under our feet and that the depth of water only comes to our necks. We lift up our heads to the hills and the panic is gone again. We can breathe again, and it will be that way as long as we keep our heads up. It is always desperate, but not on the level that others can see. We are always desperate to feel the rock under our feet, to know that YHWH really loves his handicapped sons and that He loves our handicapped son. We are always desperate and it is the way it is supposed to be.
Looking forward to who knows how many more years of suffering for us and our son is what drains us of life and hope. “Looking unto Y’shua the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Now that is where we are supposed to look. We will be glorified with Him if we suffer with Him. Suffer with Him. Do not suffer without Him, that is when it is unbearable. No one knows our pain but YHWH and our brothers that have had a taste of the cup that we drink from. Drink ye all of it…just not all at once by looking forward. Sip it one day at a time. Let YHWH sweeten it in your belly for it is bitter in our mouths. From our bellies flow living water that will dilute the bitterness in ways that we will experience for eternity. There is joy set before us too…on a table in the presence of our enemies of despair, doubt, fear and pain. The longer we wait to partake of it, the better it tastes. But eat a little of His joy now…it will sustain you until then. For now the joy of YHWH is our strength. Our joy will come later.
Shalom…and I really mean it.
Yes, see, now we begin to find our places of agreement.
Your essay appeared on my e-mail; I have already gone through it once. Maybe the VOC moderators are waiting for you to edit it; you are making many points at once, but not a clear declaration of how to proceed. I suggest you remove the intro on theosophy; might be ammo for the enemy. “Wise as serpents…” Just a suggestion.
i have completed a commitment to a 4 yr-4 mo-4 day national Call to Repentance movement, and was loyal to it, no matter what anyone says. If you believe that a three-month model as GOD showed you is further necessary, I will stand with you; Jan 1-March31? It is not up to me to convince the leaders of LOF and VOR to agree also; but I have exhorted them to go much farther than condemning “the other camp”.
After that, my vision is based upon Amos 9:11: Rebuilding the Tabernacle of David: a Sound of Spiritual Warfare to take back our land. Judah=Praise; this will be a Jehoshaphat-type offensive with a Nehemiah-type follow-up. Paul never said the prophetic was finished, of course: the strategies are all just beginning to be revealed. The militant, radical Sound was temporarily squelched; but GOD bless those who did this, and let’s move forward.
In Him, Ron M.
Thanks, Bo, I was talking to Jabez again. It seems that I cross swords with him like you do with Dan; and, perhaps, as Bryan may do with Dr. Brown, to a certain extent, if I am discerning correctly. I think that we may have a slight advantage in that the leader of this group in this case is Messianic; this is the first time in my Christian experience that this has happened. But there is still so much that must be agreed upon before we begin.
In Him, Ron M.
The Call itself is sceduled on the Day of Atonement and awe 2012, as I yield to a sister who paid it ahead so to speak on its beginning. The months will carry into a present Israeli observation day in January, and includes the ideal of placing a registry in the place of historical Messianic Atonement
there (at the place of the skull, above the bus station). This at the least gives time for the message to go out, and the best gleaning of the fields of the Lord to occur for gathering a cooperative intention.
My own 42 year old son, who was a US Olympic bicycling coach was clipped on his bike maybe 8 years ago, had spinal damage, and is on constant mind altering pain meds. Recently he learned that his tyroid was poisoning him, so he took a nuclear killer pill. Combinations of medicines since seem to be assaulting his ability to think. Prayers now extend for three sons. “And he wiped away all tears.”
Sounds good to me; nine months to prepare; conception.
I have been to the Garden Tomb twice; very peaceful place. But GOD also warned me long ago that the third time I went to Israel, that there would be bloodshed. The first time I went in Summer 2000, I was able to travel throught the West Bank freely, a couple of months before Sharon marched to the Temple Mount (not that he didn’t have the right). The second time on Jerusalem Day 2008, I felt a jarring in the Spirit as Israeli youth marched through the Damascus Gate waving Israeli flags. So be prepared.
Iran has already declared war on israel and anyone who supports her. The Pope has all-but-agreed, as both of them have a common goal: world domination devoid of any Jewish influence. That’s the reason I fight so hard against a Biblical view of Romans through Hebrews as still current, but everything else as fulfilled. In doing this, however, Revelation must be declared allegory and myth, because it reinstates the unfulfilled prophecy of the Old Testament. This new stand, one way or the other, will make all Democrat/Republican squabbles look like a kindergarten playground.
The Lamb Who was slain already sits on the Throne of Heaven at His Father’s Right Hand, but this time he’s coming on a warhorse as the Lion of Judah. Hundreds of thousands of Protestant preachers acting like Arab shieks will fail; positive prosperity doctrine indistinguishable from Hindu karma will fail; declarations that Ezekiel 35 & 36 will be annulled “because I say so” will also fail. Better watch out, Esau; your judgment time has come. I know this sounds militant; but the Zeal of Zion consumes me with Holy Fire. Unity of the Body CANNOT include the apostate Whore of Babylon. Philistinians who refuse to negotiate on anything but your own terms, that is, the absolute surrender and genocide of the Jews: you are opposed by the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all who have a heart for Israel.
Is this Love? Yes, absolutely: Love of the Father for His daughters and sons. Mess with my family, say you’re going to wipe me off the face of the earth and take my land, and you’re messing with me. Jesus didn’t change His demeanor for a Nazi or Communist uniform; my forefathers fought against you both,and will continue to war against those who insist that the moon-god is the only god, and make you submit at the edge of the scimitar. You won’t go to heaven for doing this, and you aren’t going to take over the earth, either, not even with the help of all false orthodoxy. God forbid that the U.S. should ever start another war again; but flaunt your weapons, curse us, and begin to use them, and see what happens. We have blessed you; we have tried to negotiate over and over; but you insist that killing us all is the only solution; so go ahead and try.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
Maybe I should be a little more clear about this: I am basically a pacifist, and always have been. But there is something that happens when you become an earthly father concerning protection; “and it is He that has made us.” So we, like David the Psalmist, rely on GOD’s help when we are attacked by the enemy; remembering that this earth is a battleground, and not our eternal home. This also gives insight for those who think that they can spit in the Son’s face and get away with it.
In Him, Ron M.
RDM has brought up conflict, apostacy, and the shaking out of future events which will affect all mankind. We will see what history and our Father bring to pass. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And His Plans of redemption are clearly being conducted once more in the Land where His feet have walked. Jesus was a walking man, step by step to accomplish His Father’s intention, and He did. His warfare was determined long before his literal entry into human history. His warfare will sum up all its challenges in the One who will land feet upon the Mt. of Olives extended from heaven.
The notion of the website including a 2012 Yom Kippur assent registry to covenant to so pray for No. America, for consecration, repentance, and rededication, will be open to all who call upon His Name. No one will whip em up to participate, the Call really began this year, and most missed it. Now, with increasing flint of the finding of His intention, we covenant together as One, as He has prayed, This will be the miracle, the body actually becoming One with a single intention. Sela!
RDM
“That’s the reason I fight so hard against a Biblical view of Romans through Hebrews as still current, but everything else as fulfilled.” Can you unpack this for us? –Jabez
Jabez, actually, forget it for now; I’m seeing something more important. Your prologue this aft. contained a better opening statement.
TO THE LEADERS OF VOR & LOF:
I HOPE YOU ARE STILL READING THIS BLOG.
IN MY 22 YEARS OF DOING THIS, I HAVE VERY RARELY FOUND A PLACE OF SPIRITUAL AGREEMENT SUCH AS HAS RECENTLY HAPPENED.
MANY HAVE TITLED SOME TYPE OF CONFERENCE OR BOOK “THE ELIJAH MANDATE”. MANY HAVE TRIED TO USE MALACHI 4:6 AS A BRIDGE TO THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS.
BUT GOD SEEMS TO BE SMILING ON THIS PRESENT FATHER-SON RELATIONSHIP, AND EVEN HOW IT RELATES TO THE “CURSES” OF ABORTION AND HOMOSEXUALITY (AS SIGNS OF DISOBEDIENCE). SO I URGE YOU TO PRAY ABOUT FURTHER REVELATION OF HOW GOD WANTS TO USE THIS THEME AS A KEY TO THE UNITY OF THE BODY THIS COMING YEAR, 2012 A.D.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
RDM,
When I first read any of your prose it seems to bring about an interior struggle to understand what you are getting at; for example, I do not hold to some of your past stated escatological views, but I find your heart sincere. And too, I find the expressions tainted a bit from the religious genre in which you have participated. It becomes difficult to get to plain speech in the face of such nuances of meaning.
However, in reading what you have just written, I am praying about that as an aspect of inclusion to motivation for the 2012 FALL CALL. I confess being incomplete without the other members of the body and their insights as well as my own. No question the world has moved away from the masculine references for leadership and relationship, the model of Father God in prayer closet direct relationship, and the notion of the family of God extending from the throne earthward.
I am not attracted to the esoteric, eccentric, nor such; however, when I look at some of the OT Prophets own manners of expression, orientations, and communication I realize that these are generally not mainstream communicators, sound bite advertisers, nor toastmaster speakers–these are those who wore hearts on shirtsleeves and attempted communicating, yet generally were not received and were persecuted, rejected, and martyred.
Yes Father/son elements of a Call to consecration are lacking in our culture and land. Yes the Father of the Son has something to offer in the area of intimate knowledge of God, of service, and of creative expression in the Kingdom of His appointed King. Selah.
That’s why we must overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony: we must apply what we know to the joining of the Living Stones as best as we can communicate.
Immediately after the transfiguration, “pope” Peter said, “Let’s build a shrine”, and Jesus said, “Let’s not.” The woman at the well is another example of Jesus trying to express that GOD is outside of time, and we must get past our milemarker mindset. But GOD put us inside of time on this earth, so He is often gracious instead of condemning, even with the scribes who are sometimes lumped with the Pharisees as a group He scolds the most; but not always, in talking to individuals.
We lived on Cape Cod for nearly three years, and had to join a “movement” as the closest thing to full-gospel in that great Congregationalist tradition. I was described as a “scribe” nearly immediately, but had no idea of the implications. The present leadership feels theatened by any stirring outside of its control; this becomes one of the main points; but for the Church to become the Spotless Bride, it becomes absolutely necessary to somehow challenge the norm from becoming a lake of stagnation. I don’t particularly relish this role; it has produced many hardships; but GOD wooed me past running away again in Love.
There are many Great Performances available during this season for all of us to applaud; but what about spontaneity; what about worship from the heart? All the practice for the event can distract from why we’re holding the gathering to begin with. So whenever there is a glimmer of the Spirit to nurture, blow upon, and hopefully turn a burning bush into flames of fire resting upon all believers, perhaps we should throw a few boulders on top of each other to commemorate the occasion; but be focused on going on.
In Him, Ron M.
Bryan writes of the place of prayer, and that is where we must be centered in all challenges, including daily ones. Christ in us the hope of glory, looking increasingly to that peace and His Way working among us to do and be of Him.
Bryan also talks about Gnosticism, and this hasn’t been discussed. Our bodies become the physical place of the new temple (because the Law is written on our heart), but because of the “death of the flesh” doctrine that Paul discloses (not disagreeing, but showing part B of a logical argument) there arose a doctrine of the Spiritual transcending the flesh on earth, including the heresy that Jesus shed off the physical completely and was manifested ONLY in the Spiritual during His entire time on earth (in the most extreme view): this is Gnosticism in a nutshell.
Even Jesus SEEMS to say that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of worship in John to the woman at the well; and Paul’s statement that “mother” Jerusalem above is the only one that is free is foundational to Catholicism; so why did they then prepare a throne for Jesus’ return in Rome? Revelation reinforces the understanding that Heavenly Jerusalem would come down upon physical Jerusalem; and the debate has been going on ever since, and is one reason the Old Testament has to be declared completely fulfilled and replaced by those who have no regard for physical Israel (an area @ equal to Massachusetts compared to the rest of the world).
Jehovah’s Witness, for example, declares that Jesus has ALREADY returned Spiritually (at the time of WWI) and so the Millennium already officially begun: and the the elders of this sect replace the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel in Revelation; Christian Science and Universalism are other examples of “transcendent” theology that some find “enlightening” and others Luciferian demonic. So is our “house of prayer” STRICTLY Spiritual, or does there remain a physical connection? May the Holy Spirit lead us into agreement upon this.
In Him, Ron M.
I strayed into Eastern mysticism more than most I am talking to, perhaps (thanks to my radical-reformed Jewish professor) so am constantly aware of a Firm Foundation upon which to stand. My youngest daughter sent me a Christmas compilation CD (I taught her this many years ago) of mostly-young people singing Christmas carols; but it is raw, not-quit-professional, sometimes changing the words of the copyrighted song, employing different harmonies and unusual instrument combinations; I love it! In my rock-&-roll days, I said that when Christian music began overtaking secular music, that I would listen to it: so I have become a sort of Christian musicologist of the past 30 years (retro to the eighties, before I rededicated).
Despite all the dire predictions, I am greatly encouraged about the hope of the coming year. It is an opportunity to make your and my voice heard; and could be our last if we don’t hear from GOD and speak His message amidst the political rhetoric. The Christians need to have a party above and beyond the mundane Party evaluation of who is best-fit to be Commander-in-Chief of our nation, IN WHOM IN GOD WE STILL TRUST!
When the Republican nominee is finally decided and the candidates begin their national debates in earnest, one of the questions should be: “Should Israel be allowed to build the Third Temple?” Well, why not? The past year’s concentration on the Middle East in media and politics has been brought forth as U.N. illumination; why should we hide in the darkness? Let Our Light outshine the artificial light; we should begin preparing now. This is the concentration of my understanding, as @ half the present U.S. Church disagrees with my Zeal for Zion.
In Him, Ron M.
I spent many hours of many months talking to The Audience of One at the Upper Room Worship Center in Orlando, Fla.; so though it is time for another article for another blog response, I can still wrap up what I am attempting to present for the sake of the Clarion Call. as presents shouldn’t be limited to one day a year.
As to the Amos 9:11 mandate, the Wall St. Occupers didn’t invent the drum circle; or, for that matter, Native Americans. The Sound of the Spirit has much lower wavelenths than the radioactive quantum light spectrum, but “Hear, O Israel” is to the corporate body as “seeing” is to individuals; and though I can describe the Highway of Holiness, it is much harder to walk it; I can describe the Inner Court and the Sanctuary, but it is much harder to live it. I “know” water and fire from my limited earthly perspective; but hydrogen and oxygen freely floating in space, and the workings of the sun, how can I fathom them? So in speaking of the freedom of the Outer Court, there is the problem of everyone wanting their opinion to be the predominant one; so, I drew in to the hotter yellow and blue flame, and there have found more peace.
As for the “party”, we need to begin the dress rehearsals for the Marriage Feast. If I were given billions of dollars to make the best movie imaginable about what GOD was trying to explain to Job, it couuldn’t even begin to compare to the intricacies of Heaven. But, I truly believe, Jesus wishes for us to look, and listen, and stand in awe of Him. This is my new beginning.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
On #276
In discussing what is needful this seems like a rabbit trail. Prayer is needful, not a theology of being while in prayer.
On #277
Hope is always needful, regardless of the challenges to be faced. We can live life by a divine yes, not negation. I remain perplexed at any preoccupation with a take on national political arenas when prayer, service, and devotion may capture all time and attention.
On # 278
As with Bryan’s earlier need for simple clarification–not yet made–what is needful and regardful as to the advocacies of the article?
Jesus challenged the existing religious and political structure so much that they crucified Him after a three year ministry; not because of the Priests’ zeal for the Mosaic Law. Paul challenged the Roman rule so much that they made him a prisoner in Rome and eventually beheaded him. But both spoke out openly and freely; they were not monastic ascetics whose devotion to a prayerful life was the most important thing.
Some of the Church leaders who were the biggest prosperity faith teachers of the recent past are now predicting doomsday for the upcoming year; and telling us that we must buy their products in order to survive. This is still commercialism. If most are really concerned about this, where is all the shofar warning of how communities must begin building storehouses and forming cirties of refuge for the coming months? No, the gospel has become an extremely selfish enterprise, and I am sick and tired of all the hypocrisy.
The Day of the LORD is one of extreme darkness the likes of which the earth has never seen. This immediately preceds the return of Yeshua Messiah, and NO ONE is prepared for it, fot there is no place to run and hide. Is this what you are praying for? I am praying for the salvation of many before this day comes; I am praying that GOD will spare the United States of America one more time, and give the Church an opportunity to do what she has been commanded to do all along. Building the Third Temple will be a worldwide religious and political event, with the Remnant for it, and the majority of the world bitterly opposed to it. There are many who give lip-service to supporting Israel, but have no heart for her; they will join with those who would rather see Jerusalem destroyed than a Jewish Temple built on Mt. Moriah.
You have talked at length about a prayer initiative and a call to council; what exactly are you wishes beyond “Your kingdom come; Your will be done?” What is your missionary mandate to the nations?
In Him, Ron M.
IRAN HAS ALREADY DECLARED WWIII ON ISRAEL! Half the U.S. Church couldn’t care less if it annihilates Jerusalem with a nuclear weapon- some would be secretly glad to see it happen. That this isn’t on the public prayer list of most U.S. Church leadership is beyond shocking: it is abominable.
RDM,
Commendations for #280, and its focus. Prayer is needful not only in reference to difficult days, or a day period of final consequence ahead, the method of prayer using the Asbury model asks its petitioners to make individual covenants during its duration of individual repentance, to ensure sincerity. It is really a season for consecration, solicitation, repentance, praise, and waiting on the Lord to change hearts and minds in No. America, to reestablish direct and powerful relationship with His People in the Land, and to listen, listen, listen and heed, heed, heed. Outguessing what such petition can result in is not in the formula, waiting and heeding is.
As for the Day of the Lord, there are as many interpretations for its conduct as of the appearing and catching up, what seems vital is the preparation, honing of one’s life and prayers, and keeping the lamp lit without dissipating its focus by what some others are demanding. It is Christ in Us which unites unto One New Man.
I agree that discerning GOD’s will now and always is the most important thing to do while we are on earth; but how much longer we should wait, I am asking the VOR leaders to step in and communicate also; I would like to hear what they have to say.
Most Gentile preachers freely acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as Son of God; not many anymore Son of David, the earthly connection. It was David who met Goliath head-on, not letting his taunts continue. As I said before, I am much more of a dove than a hawk: I don’t think the Catholics and Calvinists were justified by the purging of the Promised Land (a tiny land mass compared to the rest of the world) in attempting to purge the entire American continent; I don’t think President Bush was justified in starting a preemptive war in Iraq, which also caused a prophetic division in the United States I can’t talk about because of specific ministries involved.
I tend to jump the gun when given an opportunity; but I can giterdun when given a green light; so I think a lot can be accomplished before next fall; that’s why I’m asking for Bryan and Dr. Brown’s prayerful consideration on what we have been speaking about.
In Him, Ron M.
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.” Prophetic words, even if they’re only watchmen on the wall words, should not be given lightly.
Iran must now back up it’s threat to close the oil channel to the ocean, or be considered a coward by the Arab world. It put itself in this position after repeated warnings; now it must show its willingness to be a martyr in the highest Islam tradition, or become a laughingstock and hand over all the momentum it has gained by its threats, to Saudi Arabia. The troops have left Iraq; Syria is in turmoil; if Iran is to back up its claim for the destiny for the region (Turkey is also beginning to make its presence known for control) it must act now.
This may be the grace for the U.S. we have been praying for; it may delay WWIII, if indeed it must happen by word of some of the elder prophets, by a generation. But it also will solidify the use of economic sanctions by int’l. organizations to control countries, and this will most likely be used against us, unless we can regain the self-sufficiency we were blessed with at the end of WWII and the rebirth of Israel. May GOD guide us in our present course. We must be diligent against the godlessness of our own audacity.
In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf
#283 RDM,
You wrote, “how much longer we should wait, I am asking the VOR leaders to step in and communicate also; I would like to hear what they have to say.” About what?
Bryan P. asked you to respond to questions in order to offer dialogue.
l have the impression of you looking for some type of flesh on flesh politically centered action for change, when Jesus gave the instruction that we are not to Lord over one another.
The prayer requested here is in the spirit of the Asbury model of 1970, which truly is the most radical model advanced in the last century, yielding selves, knees, and tongue to the Advent of Christ.
RDM,
Also you ended #280 asking about a “missionary mandate to the nations”. None here would be wise to go beyond what is written on that matter, where Jesus gave His Commission to the end of the Age. This is the sole mandate of the Messenger and the Message. We are not to take away from or add to that Commission instruction, and wide mandate to abide in Him.
Jabez,
Again, GOD has given you a Commission for nine months away, which I am agreeing to; I am talking about now.
There are at least a dozen well-known prophetic voices in the U.S. who are poised to take advantage of a bad situation next year; to exploit the poor for their own advantage, which GOD abhors. The Door of Hope I see is opposed by most of the leaders I know, because they have already committed themselves to gloom and doom for 2012, even if it is only politically motivated. If they are proven wrong, they don’t lose anything, for they make wrong predictions all the time; they still will have popular, big followings, for most of the Church already flocks after money, beauty, and fame; if I am proven wrong, I will immediately be dismissed as a false prophet, and won’t have another opportunity to speak again. This is what I am up against.
Dr.Brown has already started his own blog, In the Line of Fire, so this blog may be cut off in a few days. Be prepared. As to Iran, it won’t be another ground war; it will be an extremely quick air war that will shake the nations, if that becomes necessary. Iran can’t play the giant any longer; it must back up its threats, or sulk in silence.
In Him, Ron M.
RDM,
You seem to be saying that there are self declared supposed prophetic cadres of those seeking followings who call themselves NT prophets toward which you have had past reference and association. You seem to be saying that such folk are preoccupied with their own declarations of intention, and speak “in the name of” our Lord, though their motivations are commercial. You seem to be saying that such intention could extend into this blog’s own self references. Over and over Dr. Brown has stated in offering his own careful interpretations of events in Israel, for example, that he is not doing such under the supposition that “thus sayeth the Lord.”
You seem to be saying that these folk whom are vaguely referenced in you posting weld influence here too. This is highly questionable, as such. Granted, a definition of what constitutes the Gospel is not easily clarified reading what is posted by most here–in the sense that Paul gave his simple and directly referenced outline of His Gospel–but allegiances appear to be to Christ, not some self perpetuating spiritual cadre. Though it can be stated too that a wider Call to a spiritual Revolution can mean many things to different authors writing here, as is apparent if you listen to some of their own preaching as posted from their own congregations of reference according to their individual speaking schedules and placements.
I directly addressed some such suppositions of some posting articles here in the past, and was not sorely dismissed, nor squelched, nor too was the Asbury model picked up for summation or replication. It simply goes outside of the leadership control box model for meeting based behavior establishments. What happened when so posting was then addressed most indirectly by subsequent article themes of those of past foci questioned or taken to task in measure here. Dialogue was indeed rarely offered, excepting Andrew Yeoman’s direct responses, indeed respectfully and refreshingly so responded. He then did not act like a poster from Mt. Olympus, but a poster who can be approached for ongoing dialogue. We did not always agree, but indeed often co-communicated. This is what is needful for this magazine to achieve what it apparently hopes to, rather than merely act as another publication wing for points of view on supposed Pentecostal referenced ideals. The challenge was made early on for an inclusive dialogue, not a Mt. Olympus approach to sharing God in Christ so to speak. In Michael Brown’s defense, he is simply too overextended to get into detailed dialogue hereby and herein. He has made this clear in his interlaced responses to all.
In this regard, and referencing here my long essay appearing as #s 253-255, we have a more emcompassing communication challenge over the anthroposiphists and theolsophists, who hold increasing influence on their audiences. They claim all religion, perhaps excepting Islam, as boiling down to one religion, and thusly claim at present a greater unity than those calling on the Name of Christ. This is part of the Call to Prayer beginning the Day of Atonement, 2012, carrying into January 2013. To achieve the unity of reference Jesus calls for in Jn 17, the impatiality of Romans 12-15 toward those of weaker faith, and the presence of mind and heart usually only achieved of anguish and suffering, which Peter mentions throughout the challenges he cites to the body in the first century. Becoming One in the Call, as He and the Father are One, is not a pursuit of commercialism or self absorbed, self declared, self preoccupied vanity.
The moment any such CALL draws attention, it does so to itself, not to we ourselves as its standing broadside announcers, which seems to be the confusing legacy of those to whom you refer, RDM. Slowly, and distinctly, the VOR has shifted off other self declared past rhetoric to the very rhetoric of Christ himself and His Calling, selection, and essential Commission. This trend is very encouraging, where, instead of first calling for empowerment, by newly offered religious terminology (which is easily referenced in earlier postings of then named VOR staff) the shift in emphasis is off they themselves to Christ himself, to a co-counsel of intention increasingly becoming apparent among those calling themselves by His Name writing here, and the eternal HOPE Christ’s work alone accomplished/es. The vanity of religiousity and its identifications seems to be being shedded like any shroud once protecting candles from knockabout damage in their transport to assuming their own lampstands. NOw is the time to heed what is written in the Revelation on how to retain the lampstand, not have it removed.
Assuming I am making insinuations about Dr. Brown when you aren’t familiar with what I am talking about is far overreaching, don’t you think? Not knowing how much influence a group wields can be assumptive also. The fact that there have been many who have been hurt by this type of ministry and that it continues unabated should be enough for a prayer initiative. I am not seeking abolishment of an organization, but rather correction. When absolute loyalty becomes the first order of business for moving up the ranks, this is a hard nut to crack.
The Song of Songs remains the same:
Ahab must die first, then Jezebel: SofS 6:13.
Only then can the mature Bride emerge: SofS 7:1.
In Him, Ron M.
Ron M.,
No such assumption was made. It remains a difficult medium over which to achieve understanding and being understood. My post was an attempt at reflective listening, along with an outline of what is proposed on prayer. I reread your posts to attempt to understand what you were stating, as well as suggested what that might be. As far as Dr. B, my posting was on what I have learned of his postings, and VOR authors’ postings over some years of involvement here. I would need further clarifications of your statement to understand your meaning of what you stated about “this type of ministry”, and hurt. What continues unabated??? More descriptors are needed to come along side and agree in detail.
You may misread “absolute loyalty” in place of certainty of qualification of agreements by any ministry. Personally I know what you may be referring to, having been past burned by such an extension of personal loyalty, as such (not in reference to this site, but in past personal affiliations), but the flip side of affilation is qualification of anyone joining “ranks” so to speak. I think of the elders qualifications given to Teimothy, and it seems a very detailed and descriptive list. There will always be trade offs between permitting one;sname on a list of contributors, and not being able to reel in wild card pronouncements (and I am not saying you are doing that, I am saying that affiliating any soul with one’s gig, or ministry, involves risk. Especially in a culture where division often occurs). If anything my reflective post attempted understanding your prior posts, qualifying, and requesting more qualifications. Recall that Byran too requested more descriptions for understanding your meanings of past posted comments.
If I started naming names, it would 1) go directly against Dr. Brown’s no-nos for his new blog, and 2) allow everyone to label and compartmentalize their own hearsay and preconceived perceptions of an individual or group, no matter how limited that knowledge may be. By intentionally being vague, I can talk about general concepts which apply to many organizations more freely.
David had to overcome King Saul before he could defeat the Philistines; Jesus had to overcome the Jewish Sanhedrin before He could conquer the Roman Empire. Hopefully I am closer to victory than I sometimes think; I at least have this blog as a vehicle for now.
I believe your vision is pure; but the only person I can think of who came close to doing what I think you are asking for was Joshua when he caught the clarity of what was going on inside the movable Tent, and stayed close to it. David caught the vision: “I would rather be a gatekeeper,,,” but never did it himself for long periods; Job, Moses, and Elijah had their audiences with GOD, but after long trials and hardships rather than intentional contemplative posturing. You have given me insight into why GOD told the Israelites to never give the Amelikites a break after they attacked the fringes of the camp, however: they were messing with the safety of the Holiness of GOD; the Sanctuary can never be taken lightly, even though we are now allowed to boldly come before the Throne with our petitions; but I don’t know how this applies to what you are asking. Can the Asbury Model ever be duplicated, seeing that it was initiated by GOD, and those who experienced it made a covenant of holiness? Not exactly; anything that happens will be somewhat different, and the only geographical place on earth GOD has guaranteed to meet with His people is Jerusalem.
In both my trips to the Holy Land, I found more peace and felt the Holy Presence of GOD more around the Sea of Galilee than in busy and divisive Jerusalem, so the fullness of Zion has not yet been accomplished; how much longer? In my daily walk with Jesus, I have found many encounters with GOD, and always look forward to the next big meeting with Him; but this would be better for a Place of Purity blog for disciples to share their experiences, than a general call to council where many issues would inevitably be brought up to ESTABLISH a place of safety where the corporate body can come to agree in Spirit. Even so, there will be many who won’t “get it”, because they have never been given the freedom to do anything but sit and watch and listen from pews. For the cries of GOD’s people to be heard, the pomp and circumstance of the Nicolaitans must be removed; and I don’t know how violent this will be, in that GOD must do it instead of me. I hope that He does it quickly, for I am tired of being cursed while I am commanded to bless; GOD is my justifier, and my righteousness in Christ Jesus.
In Him, Ron M.
FYI, The Day of Atonement CALL to No. America is not staged from this site, but from three other sites after Feb., 2012.
RDM, I would suggest you view the last few minutes of the prior posted Asbury video documentary to understand the interdependence carried out by the few, covenanting for the many. God started it in the sense that he put the repentant concept and practice in the hearts of the few, who petitioned Him Directly for his visistation there. Their secret was that each made an individual covenant to obey God for the duration of their petitions in an area of weakness in their character or lives. Then they prophetically heard God’s voice on his visitation the next day, then God visited all–not just the students–and worked in the hearts and souls of all the community there. Review and outline the last few minutes of the video.
Recall to, that the Promise was received at Pentecost because of acting and employing Jesus’ counsel, which then formed the gathering council. The pattern too is stated in Isaiah and the Revelation that the spirit of council and might go together in order for these attributes of God in Christ to create action or response. There is always interdependency between the word and the spirit in community change in scripture.
As mentioned, my personal call is as a New Covenant Prophet, to bear testimony of Him, not of myself.
Look here though for the posting of a future essay on the Precious (Perfect) Law of liberty, the law of God, and the Law of Christ. The premise being that the only thing which counts in all our efforts is faith expressing itself in love.